cdowis Posted February 29, 2016 Posted February 29, 2016 Sir, Don't insult our intelligence. "The astronauts did not get into the space craft, they did not land on the moon, they did not take images of walking on the moon. Actually they were in a bar, drinking beer, singing songs, and messing around with the local women while all of this was going on. I have zero evidence for this, I just dreamed up this fantasy because I think space travel is impossible, AND THIS IS JUST MY PERSONAL INTERPRETATION OF THE FIRST MOON LANDING which justifies me to say absolutely anything I want." Clearly you and I do not speak with a common language. It remains to be seen whether we have any common ground for a discussion.
mfbukowski Posted February 29, 2016 Posted February 29, 2016 2 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: How is a description a Scientific answer? Joseph Smith did describe Moroni, was that scientific? He was describing what he saw. What he saw might not have been "real" in the sense you naturally think of as "real". He was describing an EXPERIENCE. It could have been like a dream. It was a vision- it was not something anyone else could see. Someone else's experience of Moroni might be different. 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 29, 2016 Author Posted February 29, 2016 (edited) 18 minutes ago, cdowis said: Sir, Don't insult our intelligence. I am not. His interpretation doesn't contradict the available evidence, unless you present new evidence that challenges his theory. How can you offer an opinion when you haven't even watch his presentation on the book of Mormon witnesses? You don't know what he is saying, so how can you offer a response? Bytheway, Do you believe in Biological Evolution and Global Warming? Edited February 29, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
mfbukowski Posted February 29, 2016 Posted February 29, 2016 1 minute ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I am not. His interpretation does fit the available evidence, unless you present new evidence that challenges his theory. How can you offer an opinion when you haven't even watch his presentation on the book of Mormon witnesses? You don't know what he is saying, so how can you offer a refutation? Bytheway, Do you believe in Biological Evolution and Global Warming? You never linked to the presentation as far as I can see- maybe I missed it
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 29, 2016 Author Posted February 29, 2016 3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: You never linked to the presentation as far as I can see- maybe I missed it I am not sure if that is against the rules, but here it is part 1 and part 2
Cold Steel Posted February 29, 2016 Posted February 29, 2016 18 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Collective hallucinations do happen, and someone with skills is not required. How can we be sure the witnesses did not imagine Moroni? The only instance I'm aware of is Fatima, in October 1917. Witnesses to these events, according to those present, all followed the sun like people watching a tennis match -- as though they all saw the same thing and reacting accordingly. One described the event as: "Suddenly I heard the uproar of thousands of voices, and I saw the whole multitude spread out in that vast space at my feet...turn their backs to that spot where, until then, all their expectations had been focused, and look at the sun on the other side. I turned around, too, toward the point commanding their gaze and I could see the sun, like a very clear disc, with its sharp edge, which gleamed without hurting the sight. It could not be confused with the sun seen through a fog (there was no fog at that moment), for it was neither veiled nor dim. At Fatima, it kept its light and heat, and stood out clearly in the sky, with a sharp edge, like a large gaming table. The most astonishing thing was to be able to stare at the solar disc for a long time, brilliant with light and heat, without hurting the eyes or damaging the retina. [During this time], the sun's disc did not remain immobile, it had a giddy motion, [but] not like the twinkling of a star in all its brilliance for it spun round upon itself in a mad whirl. "During the solar phenomenon, which I have just described, there were also changes of color in the atmosphere. Looking at the sun, I noticed that everything was becoming darkened. I looked first at the nearest objects and then extended my glance further afield as far as the horizon. I saw everything had assumed an amethyst color. Objects around me, the sky and the atmosphere, were of the same color. Everything both near and far had changed, taking on the color of old yellow damask. People looked as if they were suffering from jaundice and I recall a sensation of amusement at seeing them look so ugly and unattractive. My own hand was the same color. "Then, suddenly, one heard a clamor, a cry of anguish breaking from all the people. The sun, whirling wildly, seemed all at once to loosen itself from the firmament and, blood red, advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge and fiery weight. The sensation during those moments was truly terrible. "All the phenomena which I have described were observed by me in a calm and serene state of mind without any emotional disturbance. It is for others to interpret and explain them. Finally, I must declare that never, before or after October 13 [1917], have I observed similar atmospheric or solar phenomena." Professor Almeida Garrett's full account may be found in Novos Documentos de Fatima(Loyala editions, San Paulo, 1984) This is the only example I know of, and I'm not certain it was a hallucination at all as Satan is said to create signs and wonders in the last days. When The Amazing Kreskin caused a selected number and caused them to "see" flying saucers outside the studio building at night, he first had to prepare them and give them a key word to start the experience. When he said the word, immediately the people began acting as though they ahh were seeing flying saucers. One escaped the group and began running down the road to find the police while others called loudly for someone else to call them. But when Kreskin began asking people what they saw, the variance was significant. Some saw red ones, while others saw blue and/or yellow ones. But what was also significant is that when Kreskin stopped it with another key word, they couldn't remember seeing anything or behaving so remarkably. Mere suggestion doesn't last as far as I've been able to ascertain. Even if the people who saw the flying saucers could remember it, I doubt the memory would remain vivid for more than a good night's sleep. God choose and ordained the witnesses to be dead on credible and rock solid and I believe them to be so. And it's not just the Book of Mormon, but every other major event of the Restoration. The ordinations to the priesthood, the return of Elijah, the appearance of Christ to accept the Kirtland Temple and others to restore other keys. Also THE VISION, a wonderful manifestation of God's grace and love for his children. Others had visions as well, almost too many to record. Orson Hyde, Wilford Woodruff, Parley Pratt, Heber C. Kimball, and many others. None of them ever came back and said they were concoctions. Many had been ardent truth seekers prior to finding the gospel. If Joseph had been seeking false witnesses, the last person he should have hit up was Martin Harris, whose wife had repeatedly tried to convince him that Joseph was a phoney. Trying to get him as a conspirator would have been ballsy to the extreme. "You say you saw me to do what, when?? You know, my wife was right about you! I want my money back now, you charlatan!" Nope. I can't see it. He wasn't weak witted, nor was he gullible or a fool. He didn't back down from the mobs, even when they threatened to shoot him at point blank range, so he was no coward, either. He never reneged; none of them did. So that's why it's pointless to try to find new ground to plow. There is none.
Sevenbak Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 9 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Nice, but 1. Not a first hand account. It is from George Reynolds, “History of the Book of Mormon,” Contributor, Aug. 1884, 403 2. Doesn't mention Moroni or angel. There is no description of the angel Moroni. It never ceases to amaze me how people dismiss first hand interviews as not being valid. 1
cdowis Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 (edited) On 2/29/2016 at 1:23 PM, why me said: And why would joseph need to risk getting such witnesses to confirm the book? It was a huge risk for him to do so, if he were a fraudster. He certainly had confidence that 11 people would keep the fraud going. . The critics have the burden to explain the witness testimony 1. They all colluded in the fraud. It was a conspiracy among the eleven. 2. Joseph Smith was very clever and able to deceive all eleven -- one group with a spiritual vision, and the other group with a physical set of plates. He also was able to get angels to lay their hands on the head of witnesses to confer the priesthood, and to have a joint vision with several individuals. Vogel agrees that the idea of an agreement among so many participants was unlikely because the conspiracy lasted so many years, even after the death of the chief fraudster. So he is left to use his imagination to get the eleven witnesses to testify to something that did not exist. Of the eight witnesses, it is exceeding remarkable that none of them related what "really" happened. Vogel simply fills in the details out of whole cloth, with the assumption that all of them were stupid and naive even years later to their death. Edited March 1, 2016 by cdowis 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted March 1, 2016 Author Posted March 1, 2016 18 hours ago, Sevenbak said: It never ceases to amaze me how people dismiss first hand interviews as not being valid. Come on, read carefully what I am saying. 1 hour ago, cdowis said: The critics have the burden to explain the witness testimony 1. They all colluded in the fraud. It was a conspiracy among the eleven. 2. Joseph Smith was very clever and able to deceive all eleven -- one group with a spiritual vision, and the other group with a physical set of plates. He also was able to get angels to lay their hands on the head of witnesses to confer the priesthood, and to have a joint vision with several individuals. Vogel agrees that the idea of an agreement among so many participants was unlikely because the conspiracy lasted so many years, even after the death of the chief fraudster. So he is left to use his imagination to get the eleven witnesses to testify to something that did not exist. Of the eight witnesses, it is exceeding remarkable that none of them related what "really" happened. Vogel simply fills in the details out of whole cloth, with the assumption that all of them were stupid and naive even years later to their death. Don't 1 and 2 contradict? how can "they all" conclude something, but then something else? Guess what, there are more possibilities. but I am still waiting for documented evidence.
Avatar4321 Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 On 2/29/2016 at 11:50 AM, TheSkepticChristian said: I give up, it seems that no one here can answer my questions I suspect thats because you won't accept them 2
The Nehor Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 59 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: but I am still waiting for documented evidence. I have a skin sample from Moroni. Would that help? 3
cdowis Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 4 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Come on, read carefully what I am saying. Don't 1 and 2 contradict? how can "they all" conclude something, but then something else? Guess what, there are more possibilities. Either #1 OR #2, or a combination of the two.
mfbukowski Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 On 2/29/2016 at 10:57 AM, TheSkepticChristian said: I am not sure if that is against the rules, but here it is part 1 and part 2 Thanks, but sorry, I could not possibly listen to Vogel that long. I would end up throwing things. 1
why me Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 12 hours ago, cdowis said: The critics have the burden to explain the witness testimony 1. They all colluded in the fraud. It was a conspiracy among the eleven. 2. Joseph Smith was very clever and able to deceive all eleven -- one group with a spiritual vision, and the other group with a physical set of plates. He also was able to get angels to lay their hands on the head of witnesses to confer the priesthood, and to have a joint vision with several individuals. Vogel agrees that the idea of an agreement among so many participants was unlikely because the conspiracy lasted so many years, even after the death of the chief fraudster. So he is left to use his imagination to get the eleven witnesses to testify to something that did not exist. Of the eight witnesses, it is exceeding remarkable that none of them related what "really" happened. Vogel simply fills in the details out of whole cloth, with the assumption that all of them were stupid and naive even years later to their death. The problem for people like sceptic and others is to accept what the witnesses said about their experiences. Of course, their word should be enough, especially since none of the witnesses ever contradicted their testimonies. And gave their testimonies on their deathbeds, such as cowdery. We would have to accept that oliver lied to his wife and child when he gave his testimony on his deathbed.
TheSkepticChristian Posted March 2, 2016 Author Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) 15 hours ago, The Nehor said: I have a skin sample from Moroni. Would that help? No, that is too much. I simply want documented evidence, I want good accounts of the angel Moroni. 5 hours ago, why me said: The problem for people like sceptic and others is to accept what the witnesses said about their experiences. Of course, their word should be enough, especially since none of the witnesses ever contradicted their testimonies. Of course there are no contradictions, but there are also no details, it seems. Did someone else describe Moroni? Please show me the evidence. We need specific details. Edited March 2, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
TheSkepticChristian Posted March 2, 2016 Author Posted March 2, 2016 15 hours ago, Avatar4321 said: I suspect thats because you won't accept them I will, where are the details? Did someone else other than Joseph Smith describe Moroni?
TheSkepticChristian Posted March 9, 2016 Author Posted March 9, 2016 I am still waiting for someone to answer my question. Do we have first or second hand accounts of the Witnesses describing Moroni in detail?
Jeanne Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 I will beg everyone's pardon here upfront as I mention a phrase that keeps going through my mind. I don't remember now where I read it or where to recall it. But it was Joseph asking a group of men (witnesses) "what do you see?" then each one would see what the other did. I am thinking I got this from "No Man Knows My History". Anyone help me?
Gray Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 24 minutes ago, Jeanne said: I will beg everyone's pardon here upfront as I mention a phrase that keeps going through my mind. I don't remember now where I read it or where to recall it. But it was Joseph asking a group of men (witnesses) "what do you see?" then each one would see what the other did. I am thinking I got this from "No Man Knows My History". Anyone help me? I recall reading that somewhere, but I don't remember the source
Jeanne Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 19 minutes ago, Gray said: I recall reading that somewhere, but I don't remember the source Well it least I don't feel so crazy..thanks..I just never forgot that and wondered about the actual power of persuasion.
Nevo Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 51 minutes ago, Jeanne said: I will beg everyone's pardon here upfront as I mention a phrase that keeps going through my mind. I don't remember now where I read it or where to recall it. But it was Joseph asking a group of men (witnesses) "what do you see?" then each one would see what the other did. I am thinking I got this from "No Man Knows My History". Anyone help me? Maybe you're thinking of Philo Dibble's account of Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon's 1832 vision of the three degrees of glory: Quote The vision which is recorded in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants [D&C 76] was given at the house of "Father Johnson," in Hiram, Ohio, and during the time that Joseph and Sidney were in the spirit and saw the heavens open, there were other men in the room, perhaps twelve, among whom I was one during a part of the time-- probably two-thirds of the time,--I saw the glory and felt the power, but did not see the vision. The events and conversation, while they were seeing what is written (and many things were seen and related that are not written,) I will relate as minutely as is necessary. Joseph would, at intervals, say: "What do I see?" as one might say while looking out the window and beholding what all in the room could not see. Then he would relate what he had seen or what he was looking at. Then Sidney replied, "I see the same." Presently Sidney would say "what do I see?" and would repeat what he had seen or was seeing, and Joseph would reply, "I see the same." This manner of conversation was repeated at short intervals to the end of the vision, and during the whole time not a word was spoken by any other person. Not a sound nor motion made by anyone but Joseph and Sidney, and it seemed to me that they never moved a joint or limb during the time I was there, which I think was over an hour, and to the end of the vision. Joseph sat firmly and calmly all the time in the midst of a magnificent glory, but Sidney sat limp and pale, apparently as limber as a rag, observing which, Joseph remarked, smilingly, "Sidney is not used to it as I am." — Philo Dibble, "Recollections of the Prophet Joseph Smith," Juvenile Instructor (15 May 1892): 303–304.
Jeanne Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 33 minutes ago, Nevo said: Maybe you're thinking of Philo Dibble's account of Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon's 1832 vision of the three degrees of glory: That is it! Thank you.
cdowis Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 We also have the example of angelic visitors where John the Baptist, and the three apostles, Peter,James and John appeared and conveyed the priesthood to the witnesses.
TheSkepticChristian Posted March 10, 2016 Author Posted March 10, 2016 (edited) 13 hours ago, cdowis said: No. Finally someone answers my question. Here is my question in case someone wants to challenge that answer. 18 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I am still waiting for someone to answer my question. Do we have first or second hand accounts of the Witnesses describing Moroni in detail? Edited March 10, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
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