Calm Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 8 minutes ago, Thinking said: I believe the reason the Church forwards the request back to the local bishop is to verify that the request is legitimate. Otherwise there could be some serious pranks (which in my opinion would be criminal) committed against members who don't want to resign. A lawyer could make that contact with the bishop unnecessary because a lawyer would presumably verify the identity of the person. But is he doing that and does he offer proof to the Church that he is? Besides getting a notary to confirm identity, I don't see why else they would just take his word for it.
ALarson Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Calm said: Is there any evidence the Church is sending him confirmation of resigning rather than just sending the notification to the resignee? Only the statement on his website that he receives a confirmation back from the church (from what I've read so far). It would be nice to get some verification (from someone who has used his services maybe?). . Edited February 24, 2016 by ALarson
Scott Lloyd Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Thinking said: I believe the reason the Church forwards the request back to the local bishop is to verify that the request is legitimate. Otherwise there could be some serious pranks (which in my opinion would be criminal) committed against members who don't want to resign. A lawyer could make that contact with the bishop unnecessary because a lawyer would presumably verify the identity of the person. Do you really think he puts that much effort into it? With several thousand takers, that's a lot of pro bono work to be doing. And with the cost of billable hours, that would be a sizable expense that he would have to eat. A lot of money to be spending to nurse one's own vindictiveness. Edited February 24, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 3
ALarson Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: You didn't ask what "other" services he may be offering. You only said, "Such as?". Observing that he here is offering unnecessary service, I was wondering whether he makes a habit of doing this sort of thing. Got it. I thought you were asking if he offered any additional " extraneous " services to the members who use him to submit their resignation. (And if the numbers are correct here, he is definitely making a "habit" out of offering this service )
saemo Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) 21 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Well that's weird. I'm curious to learn more about why there is a problem with resigning. Does it get drug out if they don't use his services? If so, why? There are horror stories that circulate around. What I have gleaned over the years, is that it's a mixed bag. I know people who resigned with no delays and one other who experienced the process being drug out for months. The experience is dependent on the Bishop. One example told to me is where the Bishop wouldn't process the resignation until a Stake President approved. That took months for some reason. For people who have heard these horror stories, free law services assure a quick, no-hassle, resignation. It puts the resignee in control of the process and timeline. Many do not want any contact other than, got your resignation and it's been processed. But that is also dependent on the Bishop. Some Bishops do just that, others call, send HT, VT, visit themselves (repeatedly). A lawyer in the middle, who specifies all contact regarding the resignation should be through him, has a strong appeal. Edited February 24, 2016 by saemo 1
The Nehor Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Do you really think he puts that much effort into it? With several thousand takers, that's a lot of pro bono work to be doing. And with the cost of billable hours, that would be a sizable expense that he would have to eat. A lot of money to be spending to nurse one's own vindictiveness. He is almost certainly doing this for publicity and to get real clients. Smart business model. As we all know people leave the Church because they want to sin and many sins are also illegal. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 2 minutes ago, The Nehor said: He is almost certainly doing this for publicity and to get real clients. Smart business model. As we all know people leave the Church because they want to sin and many sins are also illegal. I don't know smart it is. My guess is he would have drastically fewer takers if they had to pay him.
ALarson Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 1 minute ago, saemo said: There are horror stories that circulate around. What I have gleaned over the years, is that it's a mixed bag. I know people who resigned with no delays and one other who experienced the process being drug out for months. The experience is dependent on the Bishop. One example told to me is where the Bishop wouldn't process the resignation until a Stake President approved. That took months for some reason. For people who have heard these horror stories, free law services assure a quick, no-hassle, resignation. It puts the resignee in control of the process and timeline. I've heard about these types of things happening too. I know of one case where the submitted resignation sat on the Bishop's desk for over a month and the member assumed it had been submitted and was waiting to hear it had been confirmed. I think things happen, and I really doubt any (or many?) Bishops or Stake Presidents would do this on purpose. Mistakes happen.
Calm Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 41 minutes ago, ALarson said: Again, I doubt anyone can resign from the church numerous times. I have to believe the church membership department keeps meticulous records and would not allow errors such as that. Undoubtedly, but my memory says that a couple of people were reported in the news reports on other mass resignations that they were already not members but were doing it to shwo solidarity so while for the Church side it wouldn't matter, it apparently doesn't stop people from making the gesture. 1
stemelbow Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 4 minutes ago, saemo said: There are horror stories that circulate around. What I have gleaned over the years, is that it's a mixed bag. I know people who resigned with no delays and one other who experienced the process being drug out for months. The experience is dependent on the Bishop. One example told to me is where the Bishop wouldn't process the resignation until a Stake President approved. That took months for some reason. For people who have heard these horror stories, free law services assure a quick, no-hassle, resignation. It puts the resignee in control of the process and timeline. Ok. SO normally, without this service, a person would have to write a letter and give it to his/her bishop who then sends it on to Church HQs? So it may depend on whether the bishop wants to or thinks about sending it on? Well, this would make more sense then.
ALarson Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Calm said: Undoubtedly, but my memory says that a couple of people were reported in the news reports on other mass resignations that they were already not members but were doing it to shwo solidarity so while for the Church side it wouldn't matter, it apparently doesn't stop people from making the gesture. I agree regarding them showing up to the event. I can't imagine they'd go through the process of filling out forms and submitting another resignation if they were no longer a member (the church would catch it as being a duplicate too). If any do this, I have to believe it is a very small number. . Edited February 24, 2016 by ALarson 1
saemo Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 5 minutes ago, ALarson said: I've heard about these types of things happening too. I know of one case where the submitted resignation sat on the Bishop's desk for over a month and the member assumed it had been submitted and was waiting to hear it had been confirmed. I think things happen, and I really doubt any (or many?) Bishops or Stake Presidents would do this on purpose. Mistakes happen. People tend to take notice from a lawyer more seriously. This is also an appeal to a resignee. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 10 minutes ago, ALarson said: I agree regarding them showing up to the event. I can't imagine they'd go through the process of filling out forms and submitting another resignation if they were no longer a member (the church would catch it as being a duplicate too). If any do this, I have to believe it is a very small number. . Well, it really depends on how one defines resign.
saemo Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 12 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Ok. SO normally, without this service, a person would have to write a letter and give it to his/her bishop who then sends it on to Church HQs? So it may depend on whether the bishop wants to or thinks about sending it on? Well, this would make more sense then. Something along those lines. Last I seriously considered resigning was over ten years ago. What people did then was use a template that was on the Internet. Filled in the blanks, signed it, and sent it to the COB directly. The idea was, send it straight to the COB, no interaction with local ward members required. I think there was a point where the COB started to forward the requests to the bishops, and so people now send the request directly to the bishop first (to avoid the delay in time while the request is received and forwarded) and then they wait for a response from the COB.
Calm Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) 54 minutes ago, ALarson said: I can't imagine anyone would try that. Whoever they submitted the resignation for would find out and correct it. Not necessarily if they weren't that active and the Church did not send the confirmation to them. And if the reason was harassment, having to do the annoying and tedious work of correcting the info would be exactly why the resignation would be sent in. Edited February 24, 2016 by Calm
ALarson Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Well, it really depends on how one defines resign. Most know what it means when someone states that they have "resigned" from the church. A few may use the word "resign" to mean something different, but I've never experienced that. Have you heard someone state they have resigned from the church and it meant something other than officially resigning their membership?
Scott Lloyd Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, ALarson said: Most know what it means when someone states that they have "resigned" from the church. A few may use the word "resign" to mean something different, but I've never experienced that. Have you heard someone state they have resigned from the church and it meant something other than officially resigning their membership? Like Calm, I've heard of people showing up at "mass resignation" events to boost the appearance of large numbers when they have already resigned. That's what I mean by serial resignations. Edited February 24, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 1
ALarson Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 1 minute ago, Calm said: Not necessarily if they weren't that active and the Church did not send the confirmation to them. Maybe not. I guess it would then fall to the Bishop to contact them after he was notified that a member of his ward had resigned, correct? I just find it hard to believe that anyone would go to the trouble of looking up inactive members and submitting all their information. But, stranger things have happened, that's for sure. And, it would inflate the numbers. I still tend to believe this wouldn't happen often.
ALarson Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Like Calm, I've heard of people showing up at "mass resignation" events to boost the appearance of large numbers when they have already resigned. That's what I mean by serial resignations. Oh, I'm sure that many who show up to these events have already resigned. Some for support and some to make it appear there are more there to resign. This is still different than the numbers we're discussing on this thread, though. It would be nice to be able to confirm this number and not just have the report from the attorney. Edited February 24, 2016 by ALarson
Calm Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 31 minutes ago, ALarson said: I agree regarding them showing up to the event. I can't imagine they'd go through the process of filling out forms and submitting another resignation if they were no longer a member (the church would catch it as being a duplicate too). If any do this, I have to believe it is a very small number. . I agree it is likely a small number, not so sure about false names though with this lawyer. That would depend on how much effort it takes to fill out the forms. I can see people doing that to stick it to the Church and others to stick it to the lawyer by wasting his time.
stemelbow Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 I will say there are easily 6,500 more people out there who would resign if it meant something to them. So I'm not surprised.
Calm Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 4 minutes ago, ALarson said: Maybe not. I guess it would then fall to the Bishop to contact them after he was notified that a member of his ward had resigned, correct? I just find it hard to believe that anyone would go to the trouble of looking up inactive members and submitting all their information. But, stranger things have happened, that's for sure. And, it would inflate the numbers. I still tend to believe this wouldn't happen often. i would think if it happens it is more personal, a family member you want out or you dislike or a neighbour you want to annoy. I think if anyone does do this, they have issues so I don't think it has to make sense. I have read a number of posts thinking about doing it and gloating over the idea of success so I know there are those who want on some level to do this. I too doubt it happens often though, especially when it takes some effort.
saemo Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 1 minute ago, stemelbow said: I will say there are easily 6,500 more people out there who would resign if it meant something to them. So I'm not surprised. I was just thinking that it's likely there are 6500 or more who are resigning without a lawyer.
stemelbow Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 1 minute ago, Calm said: i would think if it happens it is more personal, a family member you want out or you dislike or a neighbour you want to annoy. I think if anyone does do this, they have issues so I don't think it has to make sense. I have read a number of posts thinking about doing it and gloating over the idea of success so I know there are those who want on some level to do this. I too doubt it happens often though, especially when it takes some effort. I would probably get a bit of a chuckle if the next time I try to sign into lds.org or something I get a notice that my records have been stricken. "You out, bro!" I'd be like, "Jacob, you little rascal!"
The Nehor Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 If this is actually happening shouldn't my home teaching list be getting shorter??? 1
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