Oman Grants Permission to Dig Possible Nephi’s Bountiful

[JulieM]

9 hours ago, longview said:

Yes!   The people of Lehi relied on the Liahona to set their course over the ocean.  The device (another one of the Urim and Thummims) would only work on their faithfulness.

I've never heard this before.  Do you have a reference for calling the Liahona a Urim and Thmmin?  That's interesting.

Edited March 14, 2016 by JulieM

[Nevo]

2 hours ago, why me said:

Of course, should one leave out the miracles of god?

B. H. Roberts (or his alter ego) once observed that "the whole atmosphere of the [Book of Mormon] is miracle—miracle!" He was right. The Book of Mormon asks the reader to suspend their disbelief to the point where literally anything is possible. In the Book of Mormon, "faith to move mountains" isn't just a figure of speech. The brother of Jared actually commands a mountain to move and it does (Ether 12:30). Two thousand-plus striplings go into battle against a well-armed opponent and not a single one dies. Miracles such as this abound in the text. It's the Bible on steroids. So, yes, within the world of the Book of Mormon, transoceanic crossings are no big deal. Especially when the craft is fitted with a rudder and guided by a miraculous compass.

But to your broader point that "something strange happened with the book of mormon"—not in the world of the Book of Mormon but in our own world, only a few generations ago—I agree that it should give one pause. I am more convinced now than ever that the Book of Mormon is not ancient, yet the manner of its coming forth and the events surrounding it, the text itself, its effect on the lives of millions—all of it is extraordinary. To the point where I have to wonder if God isn't somehow behind it, working his strange work, bringing to pass his strange act in some way that I don't quite understand.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Nevo

[longview]

6 hours ago, JulieM said:

I've never heard this before.  Do you have a reference for calllun the Liahona a Urim and Thmmin?  That's interesting.

Because of a vigorous debate on another thread (Deseret News:  Joseph Smith Read Words of Light) in which various scriptures were cited that demonstrate the generic nature of U&T.  Such as "White Stone" in the palm of the hand, interpreters and stellar objects.  Liahona gave travel direction and even words of wisdom, so naturally I thought it could be included in the class of "U&T instruments."

If you wish to follow this discussion, simply search on my avatar name (longview) in this thread:

 

[why me]

13 hours ago, Nevo said:

B. H. Roberts (or his alter ego) once observed that "the whole atmosphere of the [Book of Mormon] is miracle—miracle!" He was right. The Book of Mormon asks the reader to suspend their disbelief to the point where literally anything is possible. In the Book of Mormon, "faith to move mountains" isn't just a figure of speech. The brother of Jared actually commands a mountain to move and it does (Ether 12:30). Two thousand-plus striplings go into battle against a well-armed opponent and not a single one dies. Miracles such as this abound in the text. It's the Bible on steroids. So, yes, within the world of the Book of Mormon, transoceanic crossings are no big deal. Especially when the craft is fitted with a rudder and guided by a miraculous compass.

But to your broader point that "something strange happened with the book of mormon"—not in the world of the Book of Mormon but in our own world, only a few generations ago—I agree that it should give one pause. I am more convinced now than ever that the Book of Mormon is not ancient, yet the manner of its coming forth and the events surrounding it, the text itself, its effect on the lives of millions—all of it is extraordinary. To the point where I have to wonder if God isn't somehow behind it, working his strange work, bringing to pass his strange act in some way that I don't quite understand.

This is an interesting article from a Jewish convert:

http://lds.net/blog/faith/jew-reads-book-mormon/?utm_source=lds.net+users&utm_campaign=99a54e4b0d-Newsletter_Mar_07_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_608611419d-99a54e4b0d-86349045

I think that you may find it interesting about the book of mormon is not an ancient text.

[bcuzbcuz]

On 13 mars 2016 at 5:59 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

Far Out, Pete !!  I mean, really far out !!  

In fact, very little rope was likely needed by the Lehites, and most of that they likely brought with them as part of their tents (which could be resewn as sails).  There is no reason for them to have imported anything, and any extra cordage (rope or twine) needed could have been made locally from a variety of plant fibers or animal sinews.

Where are you getting your information from, "Very little rope was likely needed"? Boats were either "peg, mortise and tenon jointed", or "sewn and lashed", or both. Or do you have other information?

You also include an assumption about tent construction from the Levant, "Tents (which could be resown as sails)". Think about modern nomadic tents. I'm sure you've seen many of them. Just how do you think these kind of tents could be "resown"? 

 

 

[Robert F. Smith]

On 3/12/2016 at 5:01 PM, Nevo said:

B. H. Roberts (or his alter ego) once observed that "the whole atmosphere of the [Book of Mormon] is miracle—miracle!" He was right. The Book of Mormon asks the reader to suspend their disbelief to the point where literally anything is possible. In the Book of Mormon, "faith to move mountains" isn't just a figure of speech. The brother of Jared actually commands a mountain to move and it does (Ether 12:30). Two thousand-plus striplings go into battle against a well-armed opponent and not a single one dies. Miracles such as this abound in the text. It's the Bible on steroids. So, yes, within the world of the Book of Mormon, transoceanic crossings are no big deal. Especially when the craft is fitted with a rudder and guided by a miraculous compass.

But to your broader point that "something strange happened with the book of mormon"—not in the world of the Book of Mormon but in our own world, only a few generations ago—I agree that it should give one pause. I am more convinced now than ever that the Book of Mormon is not ancient, yet the manner of its coming forth and the events surrounding it, the text itself, its effect on the lives of millions—all of it is extraordinary. To the point where I have to wonder if God isn't somehow behind it, working his strange work, bringing to pass his strange act in some way that I don't quite understand.

A very interesting perspective, and probably worth a long article by you fleshing it out.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Where are you getting your information from, "Very little rope was likely needed"? Boats were either "peg, mortise and tenon jointed", or "sewn and lashed", or both. Or do you have other information?

You also include an assumption about tent construction from the Levant, "Tents (which could be resown as sails)". Think about modern nomadic tents. I'm sure you've seen many of them. Just how do you think these kind of tents could be "resown"? 

I was responding to Peter Pear, who said:

 

Quote

On 3/11/2016 at 3:23 PM, PeterPear said:

Well, it's a good thing this place was discovered with its abundant resources, because up until know the brilliant LDS Scholars at the MI / F.A.R.M.S. were claiming Nephi had to have had imported wood or lumber from India as well as up to 50,000 coconuts to make rope and rigging from their coconut fibers: 

http://publications.mi.byu.edu/publications/jbms/15/2/S00007-50bf64ad1b8fe4WellingtonPotter.pdf Page 39

"According to Arabist scholar Raphael Patai, the bib- lical name for a ship’s captain was rabh hahobhel,
or “master roper” (Jonah 1:6).95 Historically, the planks of ships built in Oman were sewn together with rope. It took the husks of 50,000 coconuts to make the 400 miles of rope Severin needed to build his sewn ship, the Sohar.96 Even if Nephi used nails, rope would be required for riggings and anchor lines. Coconuts are not native to Dhofar, and so if Nephi made ropes from coconuts, they also had to be imported. "

He insisted that one had to import coconut fiber to make the massive quantities of rope he thinks were needed, along with nice lumber.  The tents belonging to the Lehites used already existing ropes during the eight years en route to Bountiful.  Those ropes could easily be used for rigging and anchor lines, and any additional cordage could be manufactured locally from available plant fiber (for lashing the timbers, if that method was used).  There is nothing strange or novel about that, and peoples everywhere have been making their own cordage from local plant fiber for tens of thousands of years.  Every anthropologist knows that.  Are you asking for a text or article on how to make rope and twine in the wild?  Here is one:  http://wildwoodsurvival.com/survival/cordage/men79/index.html .

[Nevo]

17 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

A very interesting perspective, and probably worth a long article by you fleshing it out.

Thanks for the encouragement, Robert, but I need to clarify my thinking a lot more. Although your comment did get me thinking about possible titles. I'm currently leaning towards "How Do You Solve a Problem Like Moroni?" What do you think?

[Mars]

5 minutes ago, Nevo said:

Thanks for the encouragement, Robert, but I need to clarify my thinking a lot more. Although your comment did get me thinking about possible titles. I'm currently leaning towards "How Do You Solve a Problem Like Moroni?" What do you think?

i smiled broadly. 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Nevo said:

Thanks for the encouragement, Robert, but I need to clarify my thinking a lot more. Although your comment did get me thinking about possible titles. I'm currently leaning towards "How Do You Solve a Problem Like Moroni?" What do you think?

You mean like this chorus from "Sound of Music"?

How do you solve a problem like Moroni?
How do you catch a cloud and pin it down?
How do you find a word that means Moroni?
A flibbertijibbet! A will-o'-the wisp! A clown!

Oh, how do you solve a problem like Moroni?
How do you hold a moonbeam in your hand?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1HwVmY28Pk .

[why me]

11 hours ago, Nevo said:

Thanks for the encouragement, Robert, but I need to clarify my thinking a lot more. Although your comment did get me thinking about possible titles. I'm currently leaning towards "How Do You Solve a Problem Like Moroni?" What do you think?

I have read your posts for a long time both on this board and on the other board. You certainly are an intellectual in the broadest sense of the word. However, we also need to remember just what the new testament said about being too learned.

2 Timothy 3:7

Always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth.

This is why I provided a link to what the jewish convert discovered when she read the book of mormon and just how it meshed with the jewish faith. I think that you missed it so I will repast it:

http://lds.net/blog/faith/jew-reads-book-mormon/?utm_source=lds.net+users&utm_campaign=99a54e4b0d-Newsletter_Mar_07_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_608611419d-99a54e4b0d-86349045

Is she an intellectual? I have no idea. But her story is very simple and faith promoting.

 

Edited March 16, 2016 by why me

[Nevo]

8 hours ago, why me said:

However, we also need to remember just what the new testament said about being too learned. . . . This is why I provided a link to what the jewish convert discovered when she read the book of mormon and just how it meshed with the jewish faith. . . . her story is very simple and faith promoting.

I don't think I'm in any danger of becoming too learned, though I appreciate the concern. One can over-intellectualize, it's true. But another scripture from the New Testament says to test all things and hold fast to the good. That one is worth remembering too.

I read the article the first time you posted it and agree with you that it's simple and faith promoting. I remember Gale from my brief stint with FairMormon. She seems like a very nice person and I support her efforts to promote the Book of Mormon and the Church online. She's keeping her temple covenants better than I am and I give her full credit for that.

[TheSkepticChristian]

On 2/11/2016 at 6:49 PM, MDalby said:

A team of archaeologists and scholars will be at an Oman site that is proposed to potentially be Nephi’s Bountiful on a dig to find answers to some critical questions about conditions there in 600 BC. 

Good. If they find evidence, they will share it to everyone. 

If they don't find evidence, they will say that doesn't disprove anything. 

Edited March 16, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[Gervin]

1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Good. If they find evidence, they will share it to everyone. 

If they don't find evidence, they will say that doesn't disprove anything. 

Any archaeologist worth their salt will tell you that areas of "high probability" for artifacts exist when you dig at or near the confluence of water bodies.  My not-so-bold predictions:

1. Something will be found

2. It will not date to the Book of Mormon time period

3. The findings will be hailed by believers of the Book of Mormon as proof of something tenuously tied to the Book of Mormon.

 

[Rajah Manchou]

8 hours ago, Gervin said:

Any archaeologist worth their salt will tell you that areas of "high probability" for artifacts exist when you dig at or near the confluence of water bodies.  My not-so-bold predictions:

1. Something will be found
2. It will not date to the Book of Mormon time period
3. The findings will be hailed by believers of the Book of Mormon as proof of something tenuously tied to the Book of Mormon.

Something will be found demonstrating maritime trade within the Indian Ocean, but it would be related to the cinnamon trade that has taken place within the Indian Ocean for over three millennia, or possibly the trading missions of Solomon to get wood and other resources from points in the Indian Ocean (not the Americas).
 

Quote

"In the Indian Ocean, westward-sailing Austronesians met eastward-sailing Phoenicians and Sabaeans, and later also Arabs and Persians (see Hourani 1951; Tibbets 1956). According to the somewhat confusing account given by Vasu (1922: 3-83), the Panis of Vedic tradition represented the Phoenicians. In view of the location of Panis in Kamarupa (Assam), the author contended that Phoenicians had settled in the east of India at a very early date. According to the Old Testament, shippers of the Phoenician King Hiram helped the men of King Solomon in a maritime expedition to a land called Ophlr (1 Kings 9: 26-28; 2 Chron. 8: 17-18), and the same is stated in the Jewish Antiquities of Flavius Josephus, dated 93 AD (see Thackeray and Marcus 1966: 658-60), but the land of destination is called Sopheir: 

The king also built many ships in the Egyptian Gulf of the Red Sea [Josephus' 'Egyptian Gulf' is our Red Sea, and his 'Red Sea' is our Indian Ocean] at a certain place called Gasion-gabel not far from the city Ailane, which is now called Berenike. For this territory formerly belonged to the Jews. Moreover he obtained a present suitable to the needs of his ships from lromos, the king of Tyre, who sent him pilots and a goodly number of men skilled in seamanship, and these Solomon ordered to sail along with his own stewards to the land anciently called Sopheir, but now golden land (it pertains to India) to get gold. And when they had amassed a sum of four hundred talents they returned to the king. 

Many have identified Josephus' 'golden land' with Chryse (Goldland) of the Periplus and Suvanabhiimi (Goldland) of Sanskrit literature - both encompassing Sumatra and the Malay Peninsula - resulting in a tradition going back to Emanuel Godinho de Eredia's 1616 Tratado Ophirico ('Treatise on Ophir', see Mills 1930: 202, 256-59), and surviving as recently as Miller (1969),. that the biblical Ophlr was in Malaya, or Sumatra (Godinho de Eredia located it in Siam, to which at that time more of the Malayan Peninsula belonged). 

From archaeological data and historiographic sources, it is known that Sabaeans from Arabia felix (the Yemen) were already sailing to the Straits of Malacca by the end of the first millennium BC. 

Regular Austronesian maritime communication between India and Indonesia must have begun between 1000 and 600 BC. The former date is roughly contemporaneous with the time of King Solomon. It was also noted that we have testimony from Persian historians of settlements of seafaring peoples called Sayabiga, apparently Malays, in the Persian Gulf since the seventh century AD. In other words, Semitic and Austronesian seafarers had held regular maritime communication with the closest coast of India since around 1000 BC..." (source)

If the above is true, the Lehites would have heard of this Golden Ophir of Solomon full of islands populated by their lost brothers (2 Nephi 10:20-22), full of barley, iron, copper, tin, silver, gold, elephants, horses, chariots and silk. If the Lehites did sail from Oman, they would have followed the iron, gold, copper and tin trades east to the Golden Isles. But that is as far as the trail goes in 600 BC, and it is highly doubtful any Semitic sailor would have dared pass through the dangerous Straits of Malacca. Seafaring beyond that point would have been dependent on Austronesian sailors and technology, the only group capable of such great distances across the Pacific before Magellan. The Lehites would have at least consulted with Malay sailors that knew the stars pointing the way from one island to the next as far east as Easter Island. Maybe the Lehites even took Malay navigators on board. Could that be a possibility? It could be the only real option if the Lehites are to survive a trans-Pacific voyage.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[Calm]

Why would they need navigators when they had the Liahona in your view?

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Why would they need navigators when they had the Liahona in your view?

Why would they need the Liahona when they had access to skilled navigators? 

I think one obstacle to unraveling the voyage of the Lehites is that we still view 600 BC through our Sunday School lens. The oceans were empty, the lands were uninhabited, the Liahona will lead the way. But the reality is that there were Austronesians all along the way, reaching as far as South America. They knew the path and they used their complex star maps to guide them. Even today, they are the only people that can make the voyage using only the stars. If the Liahona was necessary then I suppose it to be some sort of physical representation of the star compass used by ancient, and modern, Pacific mariners. Follow the Lehuakona towards the southeast and voila. Of course there could be a star compass expert here that could tell me that interpretation doesn't work, but that's my point. Some people know, while others need an interpreter.

I don't think Nephi needed the Liahona any more than he needed the Sword of Laban, or anymore than Joseph Smith needed urim and thummim and Gold Plates to translate the Book of Mormon. These objects are ritualistic in my opinion. We have no idea how they work, or why they are included in the story, but it is clear that they aren't necessary for the fulfillment of the Work. Did the Mulekites have a Liahona? I imagine they were without prophets and seers and faith. How did they also make this voyage? Maybe they just asked the locals for directions.

Look at it this way, if you are making history's most impossible voyage across the Indian and Pacific Oceans in 600 BC and you pull up in Singapore about to enter into the dangerous swirling cauldron of ocean currents, wouldn't you stop for a few minutes and ask directions? The knowledge was there, in each port of call along the way. Where is the next port with clean water? When does the wind blow east? Where will this current take me? Where are the sandbars? Why offer a magic ball as an explanation when there were completely workable solutions available to the Lehites?

Edited March 17, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[rodheadlee]

10 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Why would they need the Liahona when they had access to skilled navigators? 

I think one obstacle to unraveling the voyage of the Lehites is that we still view 600 BC through our Sunday School lens. The oceans were empty, the lands were uninhabited, the Liahona will lead the way. But the reality is that there were Austronesians all along the way, reaching as far as South America. They knew the path and they used their complex star maps to guide them. Even today, they are the only people that can make the voyage using only the stars. If the Liahona was necessary then I suppose it to be some sort of physical representation of the star compass used by ancient, and modern, Pacific mariners. Follow the Lehuakona towards the southeast and voila. Of course there could be a star compass expert here that could tell me that interpretation doesn't work, but that's my point. Some people know, while others need an interpreter.

I don't think Nephi needed the Liahona any more than he needed the Sword of Laban, or anymore than Joseph Smith needed urim and thummim and Gold Plates to translate the Book of Mormon. These objects are ritualistic in my opinion. We have no idea how they work, or why they are included in the story, but it is clear that they aren't necessary for the fulfillment of the Work. Did the Mulekites have a Liahona? I imagine they were without prophets and seers and faith. How did they also make this voyage? Maybe they just asked the locals for directions.

Look at it this way, if you are making history's most impossible voyage across the Indian and Pacific Oceans in 600 BC and you pull up in Singapore about to enter into the dangerous swirling cauldron of ocean currents, wouldn't you stop for a few minutes and ask directions? The knowledge was there, in each port of call along the way. Where is the next port with clean water? When does the wind blow east? Where will this current take me? Where are the sandbars? Why offer a magic ball as an explanation when there were completely workable solutions available to the Lehites?

I think they went due south to the westerlies and down under Australia and skipped all of those crunchy bits of southern Asia. You can ride the westerlies all the way to the South Pacific high pressure off the coast of Chile. and then up to middle America. The winds and currents are favorable  but it would be a rough ride. There is a solo (one person crew) sailboat race that follows this course, except they go under Cape Horn and up the east coast of South America. http://www.vendeeglobe.org/en/presentation notice the anticyclone in the South Atlantic on the video, they have the same thing on the Pacific side, the South Pacific high pressure (anticyclone) rotates counter clockwise in the southern hemisphere, it'll run you right up the west coast of South America Click on the route button to watch the video.

Edited March 17, 2016 by rodheadlee

[longview]

11 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Did the Mulekites have a Liahona?

Interesting question.  According to BoM, they did not bring scriptures with them.  Maybe God steered them without them realizing it.

11 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

wouldn't you stop for a few minutes and ask directions?

What if this native was a robber?  He would tell you to go in this direction but you end up crashing on sandbars.  Then his henchmen will plunder your boat and make slaves of your children.

11 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Why offer a magic ball as an explanation when there were completely workable solutions available to the Lehites?

Extremely faithless question.  If the Liahona was given to you, would you not have greater confidence in obtaining the guidance of God?  Why call it magical if this device worked in guiding you across the great Saudi Arabian desert?  And helped you to find game for feeding your families?  Which would you rather have?  The sure word of God or the vague uncertainties of carnal man?

Besides all that, the Lehites had ZERO knowledge of their ultimate destination.  They only knew God promised them a Promised Land.  Mere mortals would NOT know the best route to the inheritance.  Haphazard guessing and backtracking is NOT the way to go.  The Liahona was their only precise guide (a U&T giving them the Word of God).  Going with your "humanist" philosophy" or going with the unfailing word of God?   I am sure glad YOU are NOT my prophet!

[Rajah Manchou]

49 minutes ago, longview said:

Interesting question.  According to BoM, they did not bring scriptures with them.  Maybe God steered them without them realizing it.

What if this native was a robber?  He would tell you to go in this direction but you end up crashing on sandbars.  Then his henchmen will plunder your boat and make slaves of your children.

Extremely faithless question.  If the Liahona was given to you, would you not have greater confidence in obtaining the guidance of God?  Why call it magical if this device worked in guiding you across the great Saudi Arabian desert?  And helped you to find game for feeding your families?  Which would you rather have?  The sure word of God or the vague uncertainties of carnal man?

Besides all that, the Lehites had ZERO knowledge of their ultimate destination.  They only knew God promised them a Promised Land.  Mere mortals would NOT know the best route to the inheritance.  Haphazard guessing and backtracking is NOT the way to go.  The Liahona was their only precise guide (a U&T giving them the Word of God).  Going with your "humanist" philosophy" or going with the unfailing word of God?   I am sure glad YOU are NOT my prophet!

All valid points, especially the last one  

As always, its impossible to argue with the "just take it as 100% literal Truth or risk being a faithless humanist" argument.

For the record, I am not a faithless humanist, but I am curious to know how God works and to understand the scriptures by likening them to myself. For that reason I ask the questions, not because I am trying to shake your faith or anything like that. Apologies if it came across like that.

[PeterPear]

On March 13, 2016 at 9:59 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Far Out, Pete !!  I mean, really far out !!  

In fact, very little rope was likely needed by the Lehites, and most of that they likely brought with them as part of their tents (which could be resewn as sails).  There is no reason for them to have imported anything, and any extra cordage (rope or twine) needed could have been made locally from a variety of plant fibers or animal sinews.

Why are you complaining? LOL! I'm mocking the stupid quote about 50,000 coconuts. I don't believe this fairy-tale speculation.

[PeterPear]

On March 15, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

I was responding to Peter Pear, who said:

He insisted that one had to import coconut fiber to make the massive quantities of rope he thinks were needed, along with nice lumber.  The tents belonging to the Lehites used already existing ropes during the eight years en route to Bountiful.  Those ropes could easily be used for rigging and anchor lines, and any additional cordage could be manufactured locally from available plant fiber (for lashing the timbers, if that method was used).  There is nothing strange or novel about that, and peoples everywhere have been making their own cordage from local plant fiber for tens of thousands of years.  Every anthropologist knows that.  Are you asking for a text or article on how to make rope and twine in the wild?  Here is one:  http://wildwoodsurvival.com/survival/cordage/men79/index.html .

I insisted nothing, thou non-comprehensive one. I was quoting a ridiculous article by F.A.R.M.S. / M.I. and their speculative scholars who you have defending most vociferously in the past and present here on these boards.

The fact that you mocked what you believed I had embraced as being accurate, reveals your inabilities to defend the very thing you defended in the past and present as being truth. LOL! 

No hard feelings intended of course.

[PeterPear]

Sort of silly the speculation that Nephi sailed through the India and Pacific Oceans to the land of Promise.

The shorter route is around Africa into the Atlantic landing on the Eastern coast of or in the Gulf of Mexico of North America. Unless of course you believe Dr. Sorenson who has stated the Maya were not the Nephites, but the Nephites were among the Maya anyway - due to a narrow neck of land.

Lehi was promised a land of promise but the Lord's reservation system got garbled due to an electrical blackout and the Maya got the reservation instead. So much for the Lord's failed promises to Lehi, if you believe that, then Nephi sailed east through the strait of Malacca past the isles of Indonesia, avoided Asian land wars that even America could not, then into the Pacific where they finally landed amd lived among the Maya but never became them because they lived the Law of Moses for 600 years while the Maya ran around with parrot feathers in their hair.

[saemo]

27 minutes ago, PeterPear said:

Sort of silly the speculation that Nephi sailed through the India and Pacific Oceans to the land of Promise.

The shorter route is around Africa into the Atlantic landing on the Eastern coast of or in the Gulf of Mexico of North America. Unless of course you believe Dr. Sorenson who has stated the Maya were not the Nephites, but the Nephites were among the Maya anyway - due to a narrow neck of land.

Lehi was promised a land of promise but the Lord's reservation system got garbled due to an electrical blackout and the Maya got the reservation instead. So much for the Lord's failed promises to Lehi, if you believe that, then Nephi sailed east through the strait of Malacca past the isles of Indonesia, avoided Asian land wars that even America could not, then into the Pacific where they finally landed amd lived among the Maya but never became them because they lived the Law of Moses for 600 years while the Maya ran around with parrot feathers in their hair.

Quetzals, not parrots

[saemo]

This conversation reminds me of a seminary teacher, way back, who was convinced that Lehi & Co landed in Chile. A teen at the time, of course, I went home excited to tell my parents the awesome thing I had learned, that Chile is where Lehi landed! My bubble was burst when my dad said...wrong side of the continent. :/