To Help GLBT Members, Show an Increase in Love

[Ahab]

I think the crux of this thread is in understanding what it means to show an increase of love.

To me that doesn't mean getting all huggy and kissy with someone.  

When I love someone who is doing something morally wrong that will end up hurting him or her in some way, not necessarily physically harming them but will result in a loss of blessings or some other benefit, what do you think I should do? Just leave them alone or say nothing to try to correct their behavior? 

Loving someone involves trying to help them in some way, and increasingly loving someone involves continuing to love them (continuing to try to help them,  including talking with them about what they are doing that is hurting them in some way).

In contrast to not trying to help them anymore by just letting them do something that is bad for them and will in some way hurt them.

I take the brethren's counsel to mean that we should not just give in or give up trying to help our LGBT brothers and sisters.  Don't just walk away from them while thinking that since being LGBT is legal there is nothing we can do to try to stop them from hurting themselves or others.

Show an increase of the love that motivates us to try to help them when we see them continually increasing to get themselves and others into more and more trouble.

This is no time for a truce with sinners. The war with sin isn't even close to being over.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Ahab

[Daniel2]

On ‎02‎/‎04‎/‎2016 at 11:35 AM, Ahab said:

Loving someone involves trying to help them in some way...continuing to try to help them,  including talking with them about what they are doing that is hurting them in some way).

In contrast to not trying to help them anymore by just letting them do something that is bad for them and will in some way hurt them...

Don't just walk away from them while thinking that since being LGBT is legal there is nothing we can do to try to stop them from hurting themselves or others.

Show an increase of the love that motivates us to try to help them when we see them continually increasing to get themselves and others into more and more trouble.

This is no time for a truce with sinners. The war with sin isn't even close to being over.

Hmm. 

"Try to help us..." 

"Talking with us about what we're doing is hurting us in some way"...

"Not just letting us do something that is bad for us and will in some way hurt us"...

"Motivating you to try to help us when you see us continually increasing to get ourselves and others into more and more trouble"...

I'm not sure that I would classify those things as "showing an increase of love."  At least, I don't think I would perceive such actions towards me as being loving.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean.

Could you help me understand how/if you would apply your comments above to someone in my case...?

My husband and I married a little more than a year ago after dating for about five years, of which we lived together for about two years prior to getting married.  After spending our early lives as devout members of the church (including both serving missions, getting married, having children, and serving in various church callings, ranging from gospel doctrine teachers to Elders Quorum presidency and bishopric members), we both ultimately divorced our wives and each left the church over a decade ago, over 5 years before we met one another.  We both have made every effort to remain supportive and committed fathers (and now, grandfathers) to our children.  After both of us spent years of self, social, dating, and sexual exploration as openly gay men, we were blessed to find one another and settled down into a committed relationship.  A year after it became legal, our oldest son (on my husband's side) married us in a beautiful and fairly traditional ceremony, with many of our family members in attendance.

To give you an idea of what our gay-married life is like together: We have regular family get-togethers, whether it's game night with our (adult) kids and four grandkids (ranging in age from a freshman in high school to toddlers), all going out to dinner or the movies or camping together, babysitting our two young grandkids so their mom and dad can go out on date night together, etc.  For special occasions, we get together with my husbands' ex-wife and her new husband to celebrate our kids' birthdays, Thanksgiving, Christmas, baby blessings, baptisms, engagements and weddings, or even just a family bowling night.  She and her husband come over for Christmas breakfast at our home.  Our second-to-oldest son is YM president in his ward, and last fall we enjoyed attending his ward's youth cake auction and helped raise the $1500 for their youth activities budget.  We also enjoy seeing our elementary-aged grandkids' soccer and softball games throughout the year.  Occasionally, my husband and I host dinner parties at our home, which include non-LDS friends for get-togethers in which we drink and enjoy games (Spot It, Farkle, and Telestrations are some of our favorite party games...and recently we've started "How to Host a Murder" parties, which are a blast!).  We drink socially, but not on occasions where we're watching kids, of course.  My husband and I enjoy a fulling marital relationship in every way... Of course, we enjoy being intimate together (and in the name of propriety, I won't go into details--but I wanted to at least make it clear that we are monogamously fully sexually active with one another), but beyond that, we enjoy cooking together, travelling together, attending concerts and the theater (we have season tickets to local theater groups with my husband's two LDS sisters and my LDS mom and two of our LDS single friends), watching TV or DVDs at home together, working on our hobbies (including model trains and boats), housecleaning, taking care of our dogs and cats, working on home improvements, attending church services at the Unitarian Universalist church together, listening to music together (our favorites include ABBA, Chicane, Lady Gaga, and year-round Christmas Music by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir---yeah, we're pretty stereotypically gay, when it comes to music), but especially trips to Disneyland (often on our own, but occasionally with family members, too).  Because our neighbors (one of whom is in the Stake Presidency, and the other is in the Young Men's presidency) and their kids watch over our home and care for our animals while we're gone, throughout the year I wash and groom their dogs for them (we have a nice pet grooming set up in our garage).  We volunteer together at the local Food bank by delivering meals to senior citizens who are disabled and underprivileged, and we also volunteer at the local Humane Society.  When the Deacons stop by our home on Sundays, we always give money for fast offerings, and when the Scouts come by, we donate to Friends of Scouting (as we have done, even prior the change in the Boy Scouts allowing gay members and leaders).  Although we don't always agree (although we agree on things far more often than not), my husband and I have never really had a huge argument--it seems that after years of conflict in marriages that we both were ill-suited for, the relationship we now enjoy is soooo synchronistic that we both express love and appreciation every day... we hold hands, snuggled on the couch, kiss often, and express gratitude and affection for one another regularly (I guess we're still in the honeymooning phase...?? lol).  My parents were always great examples of affection and love for one another, in that regard, so I hope it never wears off... One of our favorite things to do is to occasionally surprise families we don't know at our local grocery store by purchasing their groceries for them when we're in line, or hand out gift cards to families that look like they could use some help around the holidays.  At the holidays, we practice and sing with our local LDS ward choir for the Christmas program, and we co-host our neighborhood progressive dinner Christmas party (usually with about 20 LDS couples, only one other of whom isn't LDS), usually by having dessert and the gift exchange at our house.  After the recent passing of my father, my husband and all our kids attended the funeral (despite the fact that Mom's Stake President refused to let me speak during the actual service--but at least I was able to sing with my brothers, as well as share a few words at the graveside), which prompted us to reflect on and start considering our own estate and making sure we plan out our own funerals and prepare our inheritance for our family.  My husband, our relationship, and the family we share, are THE greatest blessings I have ever had in my life, and I can't imagine life without him or our kids and grandkids.

Now, let's say you're our LDS family member, neighbor, or friend.

How would you apply your comments above to our case...?  What would you do or say, to put your ideas into action, with me...?

Edited February 8, 2016 by Daniel2

[Ahab]

56 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Hmm. 

"Try to help us..." 

"Talking with us about what we're doing is hurting us in some way"...

"Not just letting us do something that is bad for us and will in some way hurt us"...

"Motivating you to try to help us when you see us continually increasing to get ourselves and others into more and more trouble"...

I'm not sure that I would classify those things as "showing an increase of love."  At least, I don't think I would perceive such actions towards me as being loving.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean.

Could you help me understand how/if you would apply your comments above to someone in my case...?

My husband and I married a little more than a year ago after dating for about five years, of which we lived together for about two years prior to getting married.  After spending our early lives as devout members of the church (including both serving missions, getting married, having children, and serving in various church callings, ranging from gospel doctrine teachers to Elders Quorum presidency and bishopric members), we both ultimately divorced our wives and each left the church over a decade ago, over 5 years before we met one another.  We both have made every effort to remain supportive and committed fathers (and now, grandfathers) to our children.  After both of us spent years of self, social, dating, and sexual exploration as openly gay men, we were blessed to find one another and settled down into a committed relationship.  A year after it became legal, our oldest son (on my husband's side) married us in a beautiful and fairly traditional ceremony, with many of our family members in attendance.

To give you an idea of what our gay-married life is like together: We have regular family get-togethers, whether it's game night with our (adult) kids and four grandkids (ranging in age from a freshman in high school to toddlers), all going out to dinner or the movies or camping together, babysitting our two young grandkids so their mom and dad can go out on date night together, etc.  For special occasions, we get together with my husbands' ex-wife and her new husband to celebrate our kids' birthdays, Thanksgiving, Christmas, baby blessings, baptisms, engagements and weddings, or even just a family bowling night.  She and her husband come over for Christmas breakfast at our home.  Occasionally, my husband and I host dinner parties at our home, which include non-LDS friends for get-togethers in which we drink and enjoy games (Spot It, Farkle, and Telestrations are some of our favorite party games...and recently we've started "How to Host a Murder" parties, which are a blast!).  We drink socially, but not on occasions where we're watching kids, of course.  My husband and I enjoy a fulling marital relationship in every way... Of course, we enjoy being intimate together (and in the name of propriety, I won't go into details--but I wanted to at least make it clear that we are monogamously fully sexually active with one another), but beyond that, we enjoy cooking together, travelling together, attending concerts and the theater (we have season tickets to local theater groups with my husband's two LDS sisters and my LDS mom and two of our LDS single friends), watching TV or DVDs at home together, working on our hobbies (including model trains and boats), housecleaning, taking care of our dogs and cats, working on home improvements, attending church services at the Unitarian Universalist church together, listening to music together (our favorites include ABBA, Chicane, Lady Gaga, and year-round Christmas Music by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir---yeah, we're pretty stereotypically gay, when it comes to music), but especially trips to Disneyland (often on our own, but occasionally with family members, too).  Because our neighbors (one of whom is in the Stake Presidency, and the other is in the Young Men's presidency) and their kids watch over our home and care for our animals while we're gone, I throughout the year I wash and groom their dogs for them (we have a nice pet grooming set up in our garage).  We volunteer together at the local Food bank by delivering meals to senior citizens who are disabled and underprivileged, and we also volunteer at the local Humane Society.  When the Deacons stop by our home on Sundays, we always give money for fast offerings, and when the Scouts come by, we donate to Friends of Scouting (as we have done, even prior the change in the Boy Scouts allowing gay members and leaders).  Although we don't always disagree, my husband and I have never really had a huge argument--it seems that after years of conflict in marriages that we both were ill-suited for, the relationship we now enjoy is soooo synchronistic that we both express love and appreciation every day... we hold hands, snuggled on the couch, kiss often, and express gratitude and affection for one another regularly (I guess we're still in the honeymooning phase...?? lol).  My parents were always great examples of affection and love for one another, in that regard, so I hope it never wears off... One of our favorite things to do is to occasionally surprise families we don't know at our local grocery store by purchasing their groceries for them when we're in line, or hand out gift cards to families that look like they could use some help around the holidays.  At the holidays, we practice and sing with our local LDS ward choir for the Christmas program, and we co-host our neighborhood progressive dinner Christmas party (usually with about 20 LDS couples, only one other of whom isn't LDS), usually by having dessert and the gift exchange at our house.  After the recent passing of my father, my husband and all our kids attended the funeral (despite the fact that Mom's Stake President refused to let me speak during the actual service--but at least I was able to sing with my brothers, as well as share a few words at the graveside), which prompted us to reflect on and start considering our own estate and making sure we plan out our own funerals and prepare our inheritance for our family.  My husband, our relationship, and the family we share, are THE greatest blessings I have ever had in my life, and I can't imagine life without him or our kids and grandkids.

Now, let's say you're our LDS family member, neighbor, or friend.

How would you apply your comments above to our case...?  What would you do or say, to put your ideas into action, with me...?

Without typing a lot of words I'd just like to get my point across to you by saying that I would do and say things to you and for you with the intent of trying to help you in some way, not necessarily spending a lot of time at a time with you or your (other) friends/family members though because with my work schedule as it is now I prefer to spend most of my social time with my wife and our 2 boys, both grown men but handicapped and frequently need our help. In other words I probably would still continue to lovingly talk with you as much as I usually do now already and increasingly so only in the sense that I would be continuing to talk with you with the intent of trying to help you in some way.

You do remember that I've talked with you before about how homosexual sexual relations is not good for you, don't you? Not good for anyone,  ever. And I will increasingly tell you that and over time continue to tell you pretty much that and anything else that I think would help you.  And we are already friends now, I think.   Even family, as we are both sons of our Father in heaven. 

Nice talking with you again and getting some more details about you. TTYL, bro.

[Daniel2]

11 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Without typing a lot of words I'd just like to get my point across to you by saying that I would do and say things to you and for you with the intent of trying to help you in some way, not necessarily spending a lot of time at a time with you or your (other) friends/family members though because with my work schedule as it is now I prefer to spend most of my social time with my wife and our 2 boys, both grown men but handicapped and frequently need our help. In other words I probably would still continue to lovingly talk with you as much as I usually do now already and increasingly so only in the sense that I would be continuing to talk with you with the intent of trying to help you in some way.

You do remember that I've talked with you before about how homosexual sexual relations is not good for you, don't you? Not good for anyone,  ever. And I will increasingly tell you that and over time continue to tell you pretty much that and anything else that I think would help you.  And we are already friends now, I think.   Even family, as we are both sons of our Father in heaven. 

Nice talking with you again and getting some more details about you. TTYL, bro.

Thanks, Ahab.  I would agree that I would consider us friends, as much as any of us who form an online community separate from real life can be.

And I understand that you belief that same-sex relationships aren't ever good for me, or anyone.

It's funny, because the missionaries occasionally stop by our house--usually when only one of us is home (one night, we had FIVE of them stop by, along with the ward mission leader! ha).  I always take the time to chat with them, share a few mission stories, express encouragement and support for their service of others.  Invariably they invite us to attend church more frequently, and when I politely decline, usually a fervent, eager, newly-arrived junior companion will ask (often because there's been a 'changing of the guard' due to transfers) why not...?  I briefly explain my husbands' and my life story, including our love and appreciation for one another and the good things that have occurred in our family because of the quality of our relationship.  Invariably, the Junior companion, enthusiastically and sincerely feeling all the earnest fervor and empowered spirit and authority of his calling (which I only describe, because I remember what it was like to feel that way on my mission), will pause and gently admonish me by saying something along the lines of, "Well, we're here because Heavenly Father knows and love you, and we know you know, deep down inside, that the lifestyle you're living isn't right and can never lead to a fullness of joy or true happiness..." 

At that moment, I always choose not to point out how many people would consider those types of words to be somewhat offensive and profoundly condescending (again, I've been in those boy's shoes, and know how they feel and why they're saying what they are).  Instead, I usually respond that I would have once said the same thing at their age, but that since then, I have been blessed by my life's experiences to come to a different understanding of what true joy, happiness, and unconditional love can be, and that in my heart of hearts, I am happier and more joyful than I could have ever imagined possible.   I usually smile, let them know that I hope they also find happiness and joy in whatever course their life takes, then thank the young men for their courage and determination to make a difference in the world, and wish them well. 

And I'd bet that in that moment, as I close the door and both those young men and I each turn back and resume the course of life we're each individually living, we're ALL hoping that in the exchange we just shared, we've each planted a 'missionary' seed in the other that will someday grow into a tree that would blossom, and bear good fruit that we would find sweeter above all others that we've ever tasted, and would fill our souls with exceedingly great joy to the degree that we would be desirous that our family and friends should partake of it, also, once we learned for ourselves that it was desirable above all other fruit.  

[Ahab]

13 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Thanks, Ahab.  I would agree that I would consider us friends, as much as any of us who form an online community separate from real life can be.

And I understand that you belief that same-sex relationships aren't ever good for me, or anyone.

It's funny, because the missionaries occasionally stop by our house--usually when only one of us is home (one night, we had FIVE of them stop by, along with the ward mission leader! ha).  I always take the time to chat with them, share a few mission stories, express encouragement and support for their service of others.  Invariably they invite us to attend church more frequently, and when I politely decline, usually a fervent, eager, newly-arrived junior companion will ask (often because there's been a 'changing of the guard' due to transfers) why not...?  I briefly explain my husbands' and my life story, including our love and appreciation for one another and the good things that have occurred in our family because of the quality of our relationship.  Invariably, the Junior companion, enthusiastically and sincerely feeling all the earnest fervor and empowered spirit and authority of his calling (which I only describe, because I remember what it was like to feel that way on my mission), will pause and gently admonish me by saying something along the lines of, "Well, we're here because Heavenly Father knows and love you, and we know you know, deep down inside, that the lifestyle you're living isn't right and can never lead to a fullness of joy or true happiness..." 

At that moment, I always choose not to point out how many people would consider those types of words to be somewhat offensive and profoundly condescending (again, I've been in those boy's shoes, and know how they feel and why they're saying what they are).  Instead, I usually respond that I would have once said the same thing at their age, but that since then, I have been blessed by my life's experiences to come to a different understanding of what true joy, happiness, and unconditional love can be, and that in my heart of hearts, I am happier and more joyful than I could have ever imagined possible.   I usually smile, let them know that I hope they also find happiness and joy in whatever course their life takes, then thank the young men for their courage and determination to make a difference in the world, and wish them well. 

And I'd bet that in that moment, as I close the door and both those young men and I each turn back and resume the course of life we're each individually living, we're ALL hoping that in the exchange we just shared, we've each planted a 'missionary' seed in the other that will someday grow into a tree that would blossom, and bear good fruit that we would find sweeter above all others that we've ever tasted, and would fill our souls with exceedingly great joy to the degree that we would be desirous that our family and friends should partake of it, also, once we learned for ourselves that it was desirable above all other fruit.  

I was talking about same-sex sexual relationships, not just same-sex relationships.  But you probably know that and just mixed up your terms a bit.  There is a difference and there is nothing at all wrong with having same-sex relationships, while the other is, as I said, not good at all, ever.

Anyway,  yeah, I'm pretty sure we'll just keep saying pretty much the same thing to each other on this issue without ever agreeing, but rather than not say our piece to each other and just walk away from this issue I feel duty bound,  because of the love I have for you I think, to just increasingly talk with you about this issue as a sign that I am showing an increase of love toward you.

Not necessarily at this moment, unless you want to talk about it some more right now.  But over time I'll continue to talk about it with you.

Do you also remember me telling you that there is nothing at all wrong with loving someone of the same sex, and also nothing at all wrong with considering someone who is the same sex as you as being sexually attractive? 

The line between what is good and evil is kinda blurry sometimes to some people and I understand why you're having some trouble discerning the difference.  You do agree that one of us is wrong about this, don't you? We can't both be right about this so one of us is making a stand for what is good and the other is making a stand for what is evil.

And liking something isn't what makes it good.

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

Hmm. 

"Try to help us..." 

"Talking with us about what we're doing is hurting us in some way"...

"Not just letting us do something that is bad for us and will in some way hurt us"...

"Motivating you to try to help us when you see us continually increasing to get ourselves and others into more and more trouble"...

I'm not sure that I would classify those things as "showing an increase of love."  At least, I don't think I would perceive such actions towards me as being loving.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean.

Could you help me understand how/if you would apply your comments above to someone in my case...?

My husband and I married a little more than a year ago after dating for about five years, of which we lived together for about two years prior to getting married.  After spending our early lives as devout members of the church (including both serving missions, getting married, having children, and serving in various church callings, ranging from gospel doctrine teachers to Elders Quorum presidency and bishopric members), we both ultimately divorced our wives and each left the church over a decade ago, over 5 years before we met one another.  We both have made every effort to remain supportive and committed fathers (and now, grandfathers) to our children.  After both of us spent years of self, social, dating, and sexual exploration as openly gay men, we were blessed to find one another and settled down into a committed relationship.  A year after it became legal, our oldest son (on my husband's side) married us in a beautiful and fairly traditional ceremony, with many of our family members in attendance.

To give you an idea of what our gay-married life is like together: We have regular family get-togethers, whether it's game night with our (adult) kids and four grandkids (ranging in age from a freshman in high school to toddlers), all going out to dinner or the movies or camping together, babysitting our two young grandkids so their mom and dad can go out on date night together, etc.  For special occasions, we get together with my husbands' ex-wife and her new husband to celebrate our kids' birthdays, Thanksgiving, Christmas, baby blessings, baptisms, engagements and weddings, or even just a family bowling night.  She and her husband come over for Christmas breakfast at our home.  Our second-to-oldest son is YM president in his ward, and last fall we enjoyed attending his ward's youth cake auction and helped raise the $1500 for their youth activities budget.  We also enjoy seeing our elementary-aged grandkids' soccer and softball games throughout the year.  Occasionally, my husband and I host dinner parties at our home, which include non-LDS friends for get-togethers in which we drink and enjoy games (Spot It, Farkle, and Telestrations are some of our favorite party games...and recently we've started "How to Host a Murder" parties, which are a blast!).  We drink socially, but not on occasions where we're watching kids, of course.  My husband and I enjoy a fulling marital relationship in every way... Of course, we enjoy being intimate together (and in the name of propriety, I won't go into details--but I wanted to at least make it clear that we are monogamously fully sexually active with one another), but beyond that, we enjoy cooking together, travelling together, attending concerts and the theater (we have season tickets to local theater groups with my husband's two LDS sisters and my LDS mom and two of our LDS single friends), watching TV or DVDs at home together, working on our hobbies (including model trains and boats), housecleaning, taking care of our dogs and cats, working on home improvements, attending church services at the Unitarian Universalist church together, listening to music together (our favorites include ABBA, Chicane, Lady Gaga, and year-round Christmas Music by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir---yeah, we're pretty stereotypically gay, when it comes to music), but especially trips to Disneyland (often on our own, but occasionally with family members, too).  Because our neighbors (one of whom is in the Stake Presidency, and the other is in the Young Men's presidency) and their kids watch over our home and care for our animals while we're gone, I throughout the year I wash and groom their dogs for them (we have a nice pet grooming set up in our garage).  We volunteer together at the local Food bank by delivering meals to senior citizens who are disabled and underprivileged, and we also volunteer at the local Humane Society.  When the Deacons stop by our home on Sundays, we always give money for fast offerings, and when the Scouts come by, we donate to Friends of Scouting (as we have done, even prior the change in the Boy Scouts allowing gay members and leaders).  Although we don't always disagree, my husband and I have never really had a huge argument--it seems that after years of conflict in marriages that we both were ill-suited for, the relationship we now enjoy is soooo synchronistic that we both express love and appreciation every day... we hold hands, snuggled on the couch, kiss often, and express gratitude and affection for one another regularly (I guess we're still in the honeymooning phase...?? lol).  My parents were always great examples of affection and love for one another, in that regard, so I hope it never wears off... One of our favorite things to do is to occasionally surprise families we don't know at our local grocery store by purchasing their groceries for them when we're in line, or hand out gift cards to families that look like they could use some help around the holidays.  At the holidays, we practice and sing with our local LDS ward choir for the Christmas program, and we co-host our neighborhood progressive dinner Christmas party (usually with about 20 LDS couples, only one other of whom isn't LDS), usually by having dessert and the gift exchange at our house.  After the recent passing of my father, my husband and all our kids attended the funeral (despite the fact that Mom's Stake President refused to let me speak during the actual service--but at least I was able to sing with my brothers, as well as share a few words at the graveside), which prompted us to reflect on and start considering our own estate and making sure we plan out our own funerals and prepare our inheritance for our family.  My husband, our relationship, and the family we share, are THE greatest blessings I have ever had in my life, and I can't imagine life without him or our kids and grandkids.

Now, let's say you're our LDS family member, neighbor, or friend.

How would you apply your comments above to our case...?  What would you do or say, to put your ideas into action, with me...?

Gees...what a heaven on earth!!  I  miss and envy your relationship with your husband!!  This is what I was looking forward to.  Hugs..I am so glad you are happy.  You deserve to be as we all deserve to be.

[Russell C McGregor]

On ‎02‎/‎02‎/‎2016 at 4:01 AM, rockpond said:

Thanks for sharing this.  Stories like these are what led many of us to believe that the Church was headed in a positive direction (with respect to LGBT relations) prior to Nov 5.  While the new policy certainly represents a setback, it is good to be reminded that here at the local level we still have some room to fellowship and show that increase in love to our LGBT brothers and sisters.

Actually the Church is still headed in the same positive direction as it was before November 5. Its trajectory has not changed one whit: both before and after, it was putting distance between itself and a wicked world. The world must go its own way, and the Church will go the Lord's way.

The world's acceptance of same sex "marriage" is a uniformly bad thing. The Church is not going to save its skin by coming to terms with the world; it's going to save its soul by remaining true to its divinely revealed principles. And those trying to reach an "accommodation" -- meaning, that the Church must accommodate the world, and not the other way around -- are going to be disappointed by and by.

 

[Russell C McGregor]

On ‎03‎/‎02‎/‎2016 at 6:31 PM, The Nehor said:

We are running out of people we are allowed to hate. Can I still hate Libertarians? Furries? Mimes?

Gingas.

 

[consiglieri]

On ‎2‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 5:18 PM, Russell C McGregor said:

Actually the Church is still headed in the same positive direction as it was before November 5. Its trajectory has not changed one whit: both before and after, it was putting distance between itself and a wicked world. The world must go its own way, and the Church will go the Lord's way.

The Church has been giving mixed messages on this subject for over a year now.

Publicly, the Church has been giving press conferences and news releases proclaiming how tolerant they are of gays.

Privately, however, the Church instituted draconian policies in their secret Handbook; policies in direct contradiction to the tolerance they were busy proclaiming publicly.

When the policy was leaked, what was intended to be private became public.

BOOM!!!

The public and private faces of the Church collided.

The resultant explosion has caused great damage to the credibility of the LDS Church.

It's public expressions simply cannot be taken at face value any more.

That is just one of the many lessons we have learned from this debacle.

[Russell C McGregor]

51 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

The Church has been giving mixed messages on this subject for over a year now.

Publicly, the Church has been giving press conferences and news releases proclaiming how tolerant they are of gays.

Privately, however, the Church instituted draconian policies in their secret Handbook;

"Draconian policies?"

"Secret Handbook?"

Is it hyperbole you love, or are you just of an overly melodramatic bent?

51 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

policies in direct contradiction to the tolerance they were busy proclaiming publicly.

Not true.

Sorry.

51 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

When the policy was leaked, what was intended to be private became public.

BOOM!!!

The public and private faces of the Church collided.

The resultant explosion has caused great damage to the credibility of the LDS Church.

It's public expressions simply cannot be taken at face value any more.

That is just one of the many lessons we have learned from this debacle.

Yes, I realise that is the spin you anti-Mormons wish others to believe,

However, much to your apparent chagrin, it isn't working.

https://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2015/11/same-sex-marriage-and-the-mormon-benedict-option

I'm afraid you'll have to try again.

[Sleeper Cell]

1 hour ago, consiglieri said:

The Church has been giving mixed messages on this subject for over a year now.

Publicly, the Church has been giving press conferences and news releases proclaiming how tolerant they are of gays.

Privately, however, the Church instituted draconian policies in their secret Handbook; policies in direct contradiction to the tolerance they were busy proclaiming publicly.

When the policy was leaked, what was intended to be private became public.

BOOM!!!

The public and private faces of the Church collided.

The resultant explosion has caused great damage to the credibility of the LDS Church.

It's public expressions simply cannot be taken at face value any more.

That is just one of the many lessons we have learned from this debacle.

Somehow, (and I cannot quite put my finger on it) you comments appear to be a bit of a derail from the thread‘s topic: “To Help GLBT Members, Show an Increase in Love.”  But, I’ll bite.

 

“What was intended to be private became public?“  Do you really believe that it never occurred to the Church that this policy was very likely to become public the first time it was implemented? 

BTW, I was unaware that you took the church’s public expressions at face value before “this debacle.” 

[Russell C McGregor]

4 hours ago, Sleeper Cell said:

BTW, I was unaware that you took the church’s public expressions at face value before “this debacle.” 

Oh, snap!

[Guest]

Il ways show love, as I have a Gay child. Every night she lies down on her bed, she does not need to question that I love her...dis pit and disagreements. I cherish her as much as all of my other three children, and my seven grandchildren. At one time while serving in the Bishopic, both myself and the Bishop's other counselor had Gay children. The Bishop that followed soon after also had a Gay Child. I am often bewildered at all who think that we do not love and hate those who are Gay. It would seem it is a lie that the secular world wants to foster. There may be individuals that feel this way, but as a people, not so. 

[Tacenda]

This should give everyone pause to give our gay brothers and sisters equal rights.  Equal, meaning the ok, to act like the rest of us.  Free to be who they are and not shamed for living their love life like the rest of us.   

[Russell C McGregor]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

This should give everyone pause to give our gay brothers and sisters equal rights.

Sorry, what is the "this" to which you refer?

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Equal, meaning the ok, to act like the rest of us.  Free to be who they are and not shamed for living their love life like the rest of us.   

See, this is a textbook example of how mere slogans are the enemy of reasoned discussion. Let me give you a parallel example: You have money in the bank that I can't withdraw. The bank is discriminating against me! I demand "equal rights" to withdraw your money, just like you can!

Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, I'm being repressed!

OTOH, a reasoned discussion might disclose that (1) I really do, and always have had, "equal rights," namely, the right to withdraw my money, which no-one else can touch; and (2) gays always have had "equal rights," namely, the right to enter into an authentic (i.e. mixed-sex) marriage.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I don't have children yet, but my patriarchal blessing says they will be mine throughout eternity, and I will never have to apologize for these children. I don't know what the last part means, but if one or all turn out to be gay I've been given the promise from God that I'll never have to apologize for them and that they'll be mine for eternity.

[Tacenda]

15 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said:

Sorry, what is the "this" to which you refer?

See, this is a textbook example of how mere slogans are the enemy of reasoned discussion. Let me give you a parallel example: You have money in the bank that I can't withdraw. The bank is discriminating against me! I demand "equal rights" to withdraw your money, just like you can!

Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, I'm being repressed!

OTOH, a reasoned discussion might disclose that (1) I really do, and always have had, "equal rights," namely, the right to withdraw my money, which no-one else can touch; and (2) gays always have had "equal rights," namely, the right to enter into an authentic (i.e. mixed-sex) marriage.

Just an initial reaction to reading the post from Pa Pa, and the bishops and counselor including Pa Pa, with gay children.  They weren't meant to live in shame for loving someone as you or I do.  You don't know for a fact that the Bible was translated correctly.  Or correct, it was man written.  Probably a prejudiced one.  

Edited February 7, 2016 by Tacenda

[Meadowchik]

16 hours ago, Pa Pa said:

Il ways show love, as I have a Gay child. Every night she lies down on her bed, she does not need to question that I love her...dis pit and disagreements. I cherish her as much as all of my other three children, and my seven grandchildren. At one time while serving in the Bishopic, both myself and the Bishop's other counselor had Gay children. The Bishop that followed soon after also had a Gay Child. I am often bewildered at all who think that we do not love and hate those who are Gay. It would seem it is a lie that the secular world wants to foster. There may be individuals that feel this way, but as a people, not so. 

Thank you for this, Papa. I think that in many cases, this is true.

[Meadowchik]

On 2/4/2016 at 7:35 PM, Ahab said:

I think the crux of this thread is in understanding what it means to show an increase of love.

To me that doesn't mean getting all huggy and kissy with someone.  

When I love someone who is doing something morally wrong that will end up hurting him or her in some way, not necessarily physically harming them but will result in a loss of blessings or some other benefit, what do you think I should do? Just leave them alone or say nothing to try to correct their behavior? 

Loving someone involves trying to help them in some way, and increasingly loving someone involves continuing to love them (continuing to try to help them,  including talking with them about what they are doing that is hurting them in some way).

In contrast to not trying to help them anymore by just letting them do something that is bad for them and will in some way hurt them.

I take the brethren's counsel to mean that we should not just give in or give up trying to help our LGBT brothers and sisters.  Don't just walk away from them while thinking that since being LGBT is legal there is nothing we can do to try to stop them from hurting themselves or others.

Show an increase of the love that motivates us to try to help them when we see them continually increasing to get themselves and others into more and more trouble.

This is no time for a truce with sinners. The war with sin isn't even close to being over.

I agree that sometimes a person can be compelled to or impressed by the Spirit to explicitly tell someone they are hurting themselves or doing something wrong. However, perhaps even more often, "correcting" a person happens when we may not even realize it, when we're just truly trying to live in righteousness.  Many things help, including the presence of the Spirit and the merits of righteousness itself. Gandhi said something about silence--I'll try to find the quote but I find it to be true in many cases, and this is a complete restatement--that when we are silent against someone who offends us, the only thing left for them to see is their own violence, thus the truth becomes distilled through our own humility.  As a mother, I have found that preaching and nagging less and living what I believe more is more effective.

Self-righteousness ends up being an embarrassing and futile disappointment, in my experience. None of us own righteousness, ya know? It is something we each individually choose, line upon line, and every one of us if off more or less. So I think correction is less of "let me tell you how you're wrong" and more about "let's see together what is good and true." And I think with that attitude it ends up being a complementary endeavor, each person learns from the other something they did not know or become converted to something they did not believe.

 

[Ahab]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I agree that sometimes a person can be compelled to or impressed by the Spirit to explicitly tell someone they are hurting themselves or doing something wrong. However, perhaps even more often, "correcting" a person happens when we may not even realize it, when we're just truly trying to live in righteousness.  Many things help, including the presence of the Spirit and the merits of righteousness itself. Gandhi said something about silence--I'll try to find the quote but I find it to be true in many cases, and this is a complete restatement--that when we are silent against someone who offends us, the only thing left for them to see is their own violence, thus the truth becomes distilled through our own humility.  As a mother, I have found that preaching and nagging less and living what I believe more is more effective.

Self-righteousness ends up being an embarrassing and futile disappointment, in my experience. None of us own righteousness, ya know? It is something we each individually choose, line upon line, and every one of us if off more or less. So I think correction is less of "let me tell you how you're wrong" and more about "let's see together what is good and true." And I think with that attitude it ends up being a complementary endeavor, each person learns from the other something they did not know or become converted to something they did not believe.

 

Try putting that attitude into the context of showing an increase of love to our LGBT brothers and sisters now. Doing more of something specifically toward them. And yes I know we should love and continue to love others increasingly too but we're talking about loving/ helping them now.  What would you say or do to them because of your love toward them and your desire to try to help them.

Silence says nothing, unless somebody is just reading into that silence something that may not really be there. When the Spirit is speaking to someone I would not call that silence even if we may not hear that communication between them.

Ignoring problems does not make them go away and I for one don't think love is what motivates people to ignore others or their problems.  I much prefer the direct and open and even outspoken approach, even if it is nothing but increasingly consistent repetition. 

[Meadowchik]

10 hours ago, Ahab said:

Try putting that attitude into the context of showing an increase of love to our LGBT brothers and sisters now. Doing more of something specifically toward them. And yes I know we should love and continue to love others increasingly too but we're talking about loving/ helping them now.  What would you say or do to them because of your love toward them and your desire to try to help them.

Silence says nothing, unless somebody is just reading into that silence something that may not really be there. When the Spirit is speaking to someone I would not call that silence even if we may not hear that communication between them.

Ignoring problems does not make them go away and I for one don't think love is what motivates people to ignore others or their problems.  I much prefer the direct and open and even outspoken approach, even if it is nothing but increasingly consistent repetition. 

Isn't it already in context? An LGBT person is a person. Just like any other person, they may or may not be actively engaging in sinful activity.  And just like with any other person, it may or may not be our job to say something about it. 

What do you have in mind, exactly?  Say, I'm gay. You see me at the grocery store holding hands with my wife.  I ask you about the location of the milk. What do you do?

[rodheadlee]

On 2/3/2016 at 3:34 PM, Daniel2 said:

— Require other family members to respect your child

Respect is earned, in no other way can it be acquired.

[GingerRed]

On 2/4/2016 at 2:48 PM, Daniel2 said:

Hmm. 

"Try to help us..." 

"Talking with us about what we're doing is hurting us in some way"...

"Not just letting us do something that is bad for us and will in some way hurt us"...

"Motivating you to try to help us when you see us continually increasing to get ourselves and others into more and more trouble"...

I'm not sure that I would classify those things as "showing an increase of love."  At least, I don't think I would perceive such actions towards me as being loving.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean.

Could you help me understand how/if you would apply your comments above to someone in my case...?

My husband and I married a little more than a year ago after dating for about five years, of which we lived together for about two years prior to getting married.  After spending our early lives as devout members of the church (including both serving missions, getting married, having children, and serving in various church callings, ranging from gospel doctrine teachers to Elders Quorum presidency and bishopric members), we both ultimately divorced our wives and each left the church over a decade ago, over 5 years before we met one another.  We both have made every effort to remain supportive and committed fathers (and now, grandfathers) to our children.  After both of us spent years of self, social, dating, and sexual exploration as openly gay men, we were blessed to find one another and settled down into a committed relationship.  A year after it became legal, our oldest son (on my husband's side) married us in a beautiful and fairly traditional ceremony, with many of our family members in attendance.

To give you an idea of what our gay-married life is like together: We have regular family get-togethers, whether it's game night with our (adult) kids and four grandkids (ranging in age from a freshman in high school to toddlers), all going out to dinner or the movies or camping together, babysitting our two young grandkids so their mom and dad can go out on date night together, etc.  For special occasions, we get together with my husbands' ex-wife and her new husband to celebrate our kids' birthdays, Thanksgiving, Christmas, baby blessings, baptisms, engagements and weddings, or even just a family bowling night.  She and her husband come over for Christmas breakfast at our home.  Our second-to-oldest son is YM president in his ward, and last fall we enjoyed attending his ward's youth cake auction and helped raise the $1500 for their youth activities budget.  We also enjoy seeing our elementary-aged grandkids' soccer and softball games throughout the year.  Occasionally, my husband and I host dinner parties at our home, which include non-LDS friends for get-togethers in which we drink and enjoy games (Spot It, Farkle, and Telestrations are some of our favorite party games...and recently we've started "How to Host a Murder" parties, which are a blast!).  We drink socially, but not on occasions where we're watching kids, of course.  My husband and I enjoy a fulling marital relationship in every way... Of course, we enjoy being intimate together (and in the name of propriety, I won't go into details--but I wanted to at least make it clear that we are monogamously fully sexually active with one another), but beyond that, we enjoy cooking together, travelling together, attending concerts and the theater (we have season tickets to local theater groups with my husband's two LDS sisters and my LDS mom and two of our LDS single friends), watching TV or DVDs at home together, working on our hobbies (including model trains and boats), housecleaning, taking care of our dogs and cats, working on home improvements, attending church services at the Unitarian Universalist church together, listening to music together (our favorites include ABBA, Chicane, Lady Gaga, and year-round Christmas Music by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir---yeah, we're pretty stereotypically gay, when it comes to music), but especially trips to Disneyland (often on our own, but occasionally with family members, too).  Because our neighbors (one of whom is in the Stake Presidency, and the other is in the Young Men's presidency) and their kids watch over our home and care for our animals while we're gone, I throughout the year I wash and groom their dogs for them (we have a nice pet grooming set up in our garage).  We volunteer together at the local Food bank by delivering meals to senior citizens who are disabled and underprivileged, and we also volunteer at the local Humane Society.  When the Deacons stop by our home on Sundays, we always give money for fast offerings, and when the Scouts come by, we donate to Friends of Scouting (as we have done, even prior the change in the Boy Scouts allowing gay members and leaders).  Although we don't always disagree, my husband and I have never really had a huge argument--it seems that after years of conflict in marriages that we both were ill-suited for, the relationship we now enjoy is soooo synchronistic that we both express love and appreciation every day... we hold hands, snuggled on the couch, kiss often, and express gratitude and affection for one another regularly (I guess we're still in the honeymooning phase...?? lol).  My parents were always great examples of affection and love for one another, in that regard, so I hope it never wears off... One of our favorite things to do is to occasionally surprise families we don't know at our local grocery store by purchasing their groceries for them when we're in line, or hand out gift cards to families that look like they could use some help around the holidays.  At the holidays, we practice and sing with our local LDS ward choir for the Christmas program, and we co-host our neighborhood progressive dinner Christmas party (usually with about 20 LDS couples, only one other of whom isn't LDS), usually by having dessert and the gift exchange at our house.  After the recent passing of my father, my husband and all our kids attended the funeral (despite the fact that Mom's Stake President refused to let me speak during the actual service--but at least I was able to sing with my brothers, as well as share a few words at the graveside), which prompted us to reflect on and start considering our own estate and making sure we plan out our own funerals and prepare our inheritance for our family.  My husband, our relationship, and the family we share, are THE greatest blessings I have ever had in my life, and I can't imagine life without him or our kids and grandkids.

Now, let's say you're our LDS family member, neighbor, or friend.

How would you apply your comments above to our case...?  What would you do or say, to put your ideas into action, with me...?

I would say......dang I wish you were MY neighbors!!  

I am a fully active LDS woman....who enjoys hanging around gay guys....they are fun to be with!  I went to college in San Francisco so that was my first experience being the company of gay men. Especially in my dance classes  ( no stereotype intended....just stating the facts  )

 

 

Red

 

[california boy]

18 hours ago, Ahab said:

Try putting that attitude into the context of showing an increase of love to our LGBT brothers and sisters now. Doing more of something specifically toward them. And yes I know we should love and continue to love others increasingly too but we're talking about loving/ helping them now.  What would you say or do to them because of your love toward them and your desire to try to help them.

Silence says nothing, unless somebody is just reading into that silence something that may not really be there. When the Spirit is speaking to someone I would not call that silence even if we may not hear that communication between them.

Ignoring problems does not make them go away and I for one don't think love is what motivates people to ignore others or their problems.  I much prefer the direct and open and even outspoken approach, even if it is nothing but increasingly consistent repetition. 

I have to say, I am a bit facinated by your posts on this matter.  They seem to be pretty consistent.  I am curious how this actually plays out.  What exactly would you say if you met a gay couple?  Do you wait to get to know them a little?  Or do you start pointing out their sins right after they introduce themselves?  What would you tell me if we were to meet knowing that I already completely understand that the church believes gays should not have sex.  Knowing also that I have already had long talks both with my bishop and stake president?  Knowing that my family doesn't invite me to family events because of my choice to not be celibate. And knowing also that I am very happy being in a relationship with someone I love and share my life with,

[Jeanne]

On 2/7/2016 at 9:58 PM, VideoGameJunkie said:

I don't have children yet, but my patriarchal blessing says they will be mine throughout eternity, and I will never have to apologize for these children. I don't know what the last part means, but if one or all turn out to be gay I've been given the promise from God that I'll never have to apologize for them and that they'll be mine for eternity.

And..if one of your children are gay..doesn't this say a lot about how God is..and His promise to you?  I don't think that God is near as condemning as we mortals are.  Hope you are blessed with healthy loving children!!