thesometimesaint Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 4 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: I am not ashamed of the web site of Mormonism Research Ministry. However, I have been told not to include the URL for the site here in any citations because the server contains links to material that the owner/operator of this site wishes was not on the internet and available for all to view. It is grossly dishonest to pretend that the LDS church worships the three person one essence God that was worshiped by the saints in both Old Testament and New Testament times. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1.1-26?lang=eng#0 There was no revivals (Methodists, Baptists, or Presbyterian) in the Manchester area in 1820. There was a large one in 1825 though (Wesley Walters, The Palmyra Revival & Mormon Origins, Mormonism Research Ministry, 1967). You should be embarrassed. MRM is dishonest We don't worship the Trinitarian God of Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants. We worship God the Father, through God the Son, by the power of God the Holy Ghost. You are incorrect. SEE http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith's_First_Vision/Religious_revivals_in_1820 3
Jim Stiles Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 (edited) 12 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said: ...You are bearing false witness, a well-known EV Protestant failing. You may, with James White, deny that a Mormon is your brother, but if you take any notice at all of the teachings of Jesus, you cannot deny that we are your neighbours. It is brazenly dishonest to pretend that anyone in Old Testament or New Testament times had so much as heard of the 4th century creeds, much less believed them. The very concept of "essence" (ousia) is a category borrowed from Greek philosophy; Middle Platonism, to be precise... All is explained here: http://issuesetc.org/2012/09/13/2-biblical-interpretation-part-4-the-then-and-there-meaning-poetry-prophecy-dr-lane-burgland-91312/ The aforementioned podcast was a bit general, but the idea of the Jewish messiah being co-equally God with the Father and the Holy Spirit is in the Old Testament. I will go into more detail later. Edited February 6, 2016 by Jim Stiles
Jim Stiles Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 11 hours ago, Freedom said: And this is why Jesus called apostles and not evangelical ministers to lead this church. Apostles who, by the way, wrote books well after His ascension that you consider to be scripture. Joseph Smith Jr. was not an apostle. Brigham Young was not an apostle. Thomas S. Monson is not an apostle.
JLHPROF Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 17 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said: Joseph Smith Jr. was not an apostle. Brigham Young was not an apostle. Thomas S. Monson is not an apostle. Why? Because you said so? Of course they are apostles. 2
Jim Stiles Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 On 2/5/2016 at 11:19 PM, Avatar4321 said: do any make such a claim? I haven't asked Him if my tv guide is true either. that doesn't change the fact that I have asked about the Book of Mormon. Or that He did reveal to me that it's true. why exactly are you mocking the idea of God revealing truth? That's one of the roles of the Holy Ghost. The bible clearly teaches that we can know the truth for ourself. We are constantly invited to ask, see, and knock. Doesn't God answer your prayers? And If He doesn't than how can you claim to know Him? And if you don't know Him you don't have eternal life. At the time appointed by the Father, the Holy Spirit regenerates elected persons. This regeneration compels the person to believe in the Jesus of the Bible. This regeneration also prevents the elected person from accepting the Jesus of the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine & Covenants. This process does not require us to pray the "sinner's prayer" or pray to see if a book is true. It happens in spite of what the elected person wants.
JLHPROF Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 5 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said: This process does not require us to pray the "sinner's prayer" or pray to see if a book is true. Boy, you dodged a bullet there. If you accidentally sincerely prayed about it you might become a Mormon. 1
Jim Stiles Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 11 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said: ... I suggest you go back to Melodyland Bible College and tell them all boastful stories of how you silenced all the Mormons with your brilliant debating skills. You'll get no mileage here. I suggest you go back to Southern Virginia University and tell tall tales about how you defeated the combined armies of geologists, hydrologists, anthropologists, archaeologists, Egyptologists, theologians, linguists, and biologists that are united against the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham, and the LDS church. The Unity Word for Today is Kinderhook.
Jim Stiles Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Boy, you dodged a bullet there. If you accidentally sincerely prayed about it you might become a Mormon. Are you supposed to pray to the God of the Bible or the demon masquerading himself as the god of Mormonism?
Jim Stiles Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 28 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Why? Because you said so? Of course they are apostles. I judge them to not be apostles because of what they say (or said) and what they do (or did).
JLHPROF Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 4 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said: Are you supposed to pray to the God of the Bible or the demon masquerading himself as the god of Mormonism? 2 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said: I judge them to not be apostles because of what they say (or said) and what they do (or did). I thought we talked about these meaningless "arguments". You are welcome to believe as you choose, but you aren't making any difference to what we know to be true.
Jim Stiles Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I thought we talked about these meaningless "arguments". You are welcome to believe as you choose, but you aren't making any difference to what we know to be true. Since, it is God who determines who believes and who does not, the best that anyone can do is to speak the truth and let God do the rest.
Avatar4321 Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 1 hour ago, Jim Stiles said: At the time appointed by the Father, the Holy Spirit regenerates elected persons. This regeneration compels the person to believe in the Jesus of the Bible. This regeneration also prevents the elected person from accepting the Jesus of the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine & Covenants. This process does not require us to pray the "sinner's prayer" or pray to see if a book is true. It happens in spite of what the elected person wants. that is completely absurd. The Lord spoke clearly when he said "choose this day whom ye will serve". There is no point to preach the gospel if what you described is accurate. God does not compel us in anything. He invites us to offer up a willing heart and a contrite spirit. 2
busybee Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 1 hour ago, Jim Stiles said: Since, it is God who determines who believes and who does not, the best that anyone can do is to speak the truth and let God do the rest. Which is exactly what we do! You, on the other hand, come here and tell us that 'our' God is a god of demons (when you've admitted it was your god who created those very demons), you stand in judgement of us and of the Lord's anointed prophets and apostles. But yeah, we'll let God do the determining. The one God who is the father of the spirits of all who have lived and all who will ever live on this earth which He created through His Son, Jesus Christ. No-one here has condemned you to hell or accused you of worshipping the 'wrong Jesus' (as if there are so many men called Jesus who were born to a virgin mother in Bethlehem and who gave their lives on Calvary for the sins of men). Or did I miss that?
Vance Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 On 2/2/2016 at 8:56 AM, Jim Stiles said: If you have a copy of what the Ante-Nicene church removed from the Bible, then by all means show us. We would like to know. They didn't need to remove anything from the text, all they had to remove and did remove is the correct meaning/interpretation of the text. They did so by replacing the correct understanding that was passed down to them with their own philosophical clap trap. You know, like how "the Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God", but it is monotheism. Clap trap like that. 1
thesometimesaint Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 2 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: Joseph Smith Jr. was not an apostle. Brigham Young was not an apostle. Thomas S. Monson is not an apostle.
thesometimesaint Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 2 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: Since, it is God who determines who believes and who does not, the best that anyone can do is to speak the truth and let God do the rest. When you link to the dishonest. We can only determine that it is you that is not speaking the truth, by judging others. 1
Russell C McGregor Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 4 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: Joseph Smith Jr. was not an apostle. Brigham Young was not an apostle. Thomas S. Monson is not an apostle. You are, of course, entitled to your prejudices. 2
Freedom Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 (edited) I am getting the impression that John Stiles is a mormon trolling as an evangelical christian to make them look bad. Edited February 6, 2016 by Freedom 1
Avatar4321 Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 On 2/4/2016 at 7:16 PM, Jim Stiles said: I can't respond to anything site issues.
Avatar4321 Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 7 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: Joseph Smith Jr. was not an apostle. Brigham Young was not an apostle. Thomas S. Monson is not an apostle. Denial doesn't change what the Lord says. If they aren't apostles, who are? Since apostles are the foundation of the church, if there are none there is no church
Russell C McGregor Posted February 7, 2016 Posted February 7, 2016 (edited) 9 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: I suggest you go back to Southern Virginia University and tell tall tales about how you defeated the combined armies of geologists, hydrologists, anthropologists, archaeologists, Egyptologists, theologians, linguists, and biologists that are united against the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham, and the LDS church. Never been to SVU. I understand it's a rather more academically rigorous institution than the one you imagine to be parallel. And those "combined armies" you fantasise about have a way of evaporating as soon as anyone actually examines what they say (or rather, what anti-Mormons try to pretend that they say.) For one thing, in order for specialists in any of those areas to say anything useful about the Book of Mormon, they'd have to carefully read the text and respond to what it actually says (as opposed to what some redneck assumes that it says.) Quote The Unity Word for Today is Kinderhook. Ah, yes. The only proven case of fraud involving the prophet Joseph Smith. In which Joseph was the intended victim, and not the perpetrator. But which shows how unscrupulously dishonest so-called "Christians" can be when they're trying to attack the Church of Jesus Christ. Edited February 7, 2016 by Russell C McGregor 2
Calm Posted February 7, 2016 Posted February 7, 2016 3 hours ago, Freedom said: I am getting the impression that John Stiles is a mormon trolling as an evangelical christian to make them look bad. Hopefully not because it would be totally inappropriate for an LDS to do.
juliann Posted February 7, 2016 Posted February 7, 2016 On 2/5/2016 at 5:28 PM, Jim Stiles said: Did you pray and ask God to tell you if the Koran was true? Did you pray and ask God to tell you if the Bhagavad Gita is true? Did you pray and ask God to tell you if the A Brief History of Time is true? Oh my gosh. That is the same line you guys were using when I discovered the internet in the 90s. Total flashback. And this is what happened when you were completely unprepared to deal with scholarship necessary to discuss religion beyond insults and accusations. Two evangelical scholars critical of Mormonism wrote this, the title is self-explanatory and its not us that lost the battle. “Mormon Scholarship, Apologetics, and Evangelical Neglect: Losing the Battle and Not Knowing It?” Trinity Journal (1998) That is why you guys now cluster in safe places like CARM. 2
Calm Posted February 7, 2016 Posted February 7, 2016 10 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: At the time appointed by the Father, the Holy Spirit regenerates elected persons. This regeneration compels the person to believe in the Jesus of the Bible. This regeneration also prevents the elected person from accepting the Jesus of the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine & Covenants. This process does not require us to pray the "sinner's prayer" or pray to see if a book is true. It happens in spite of what the elected person wants. Then there seems to be no reason that you need to be here trashing us since the Holy Spirit will force us to believe in what God wants us to believe when it is time. 3
Calm Posted February 7, 2016 Posted February 7, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, JLHPROF said: If you accidentally sincerely prayed about it you might become a Mormon. No, he can't accidentally end up believing in Mormon stuff no matter what he does since the Holy Spirit is ensured to keep him from believing if he is one of the elect and if he isn't, it doesn't matter because he is going to hell. If this is wrong, Jim S, I would like to know why given what you have said above. Edited February 7, 2016 by Calm
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