Jim Stiles Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Nah, that's a minimum requirement, not a limit. If it were a limit it would say "only one wife", "just one wife" or "but one wife". The fact that it says the bishop must be the husband of one wife indicates that bishops must be married to a minimum of one wife. Basic reading comprehension, unless someone can show me it has a different meaning in the original. The passage of scripture says "one wife." It does not say "at least one wife." It does not say "not more than one wife."
thesometimesaint Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: No you do not. That much is clear. Paul is describing the nature of the resurrected body. Paul is not talking about multiple kingdoms of heaven. You are confusing Christianity with Swedenborgianism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Church#Influence SEE https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng We believe the Bible to be the word of God... . we make no exclusions from which versions of the Bible are the word of God. There are three degree's of glory in Heaven. For there to be a 3rd there must be a 1st and 2nd. SEE http://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/12-2.htm I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. From our good friend BCSpace. Here is Barry Bickmore's Restoring the Ancient Church He gathers quite a few of them together. Here are some... Our understanding of the passage [1 Corinthians 15:40-42] indeed is, that the Apostle, wishing to describe the great difference among those who rise in glory, i.e., of the saints, barrowed a comparison from the heavenly bodies, saying, "One glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, another glory of the stars." Origen, De Principiis 2:10:2, in ANF 4:294 "And some are connected with the Father, being part of Him, and next to these, those whom our argument now brings into clearer light, those who have come to the Saviour and take their stand entirely with him. And third are those of whom we spoke, who reckon the sun and the moon and the stars to be gods, and take their stand by them. And in the fourth and last place those who submit to soulless and dead idols." Origen, Commentary on John 2:3, in ANF 10:324-325 "And having said this, he ascends again to the heaven, saying, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon." For as in earthly bodies there is a difference, so also in the heavenly; and that difference no ordinary one, but reaching even to the uttermost: there being not only a difference betwen the sun and moon, and stars, but also between stars and stars. For what though they be all in the heaven? yet some have a larger, others a less share of glory. What do we learn from hence? That although they be all in God's kingdom, all shall not enjoy the same reward; and though all sinners be in hell, all shall not endure the same punishment." John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Corinthians 41:4, in NPNF Series 1, 12:251 [Clement of Alexandria] reckons three kinds of actions, the first of which is ...right or perfect action, which is characteristic of the perfect man and Gnostic alone, and raises him to the height of glory. The second is the class of...medium, or intermediate actions, which are done by less perfect believers, and procure a lower grade of glory. In the third place, he reckons sinful actions, which are done by those who fall away from salvation. Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 6:14, in ANF 2:506 "Conformably, therefore, there are various abodes, according to the worth of those who have believed... These chosen abodes, which are three, are indicated by the numbers in the Gospel--the thirty, the sixty, the hundred. And the perfect inheritance belongs to those who attain to "a perfect man," according to the image of the Lord... To the likeness of God, then, he that is introduced into adoption and the friendship of God, to the just inheritance of the lords and gods is brought; if he be perfected, according to the Gospel, as the Lord Himself taught." Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 6.14 (ANF 2:506). "This hidden world includes first of all the heavens. Of these, traditional Judaism knew only three: the heaven of meteors, the heaven of stars and the heaven of God, and this is the scheme employed in the older Jewish apocalyptic. It is this system to which Paul alludes." Some Jewish Christians elaborated the three-heaven system into one of seven or more heavens, but in all cases, beings of various degrees of glory were thought to inhabit them." Jean Dani Edited February 3, 2016 by thesometimesaint
JLHPROF Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 10 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said: I was providing context to the quote. The cause of the quote in this case doesn't change it's substance. He said " I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture." You said: 2 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: Martin Luther was talking about a case where a noble person was required to marry someone with whom he was not in love. The second marriage with whom the nobleman was in love with was to keep the nobleman from committing adultery. The nobleman was not a clergyman, so an exception was made. The main sin was that the nobleman was not permitted to marry someone of his own choosing. Unless you are saying that that exception is allowed by scripture I would say Martin Luther's belief that polygamy is Biblically acceptable is a historical fact.
Jim Stiles Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 49 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: The cause of the quote in this case doesn't change it's substance. He said " I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture." You said: Unless you are saying that that exception is allowed by scripture I would say Martin Luther's belief that polygamy is Biblically acceptable is a historical fact. I know of one Missouri Synod Lutheran pastor who said that Luther made a mistake. The guy in this video is that pastor:
JLHPROF Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 3 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said: I know of one Missouri Synod Lutheran pastor who said that Luther made a mistake. The guy in this video is that pastor: Didn't say you had to agree with Luther. Not really the point of this discussion. Just saying the idea that polygamy is acceptable to God is not just a Mormon belief. The scriptures don't forbid it anywhere and it was practiced by many prophets with no mention of a sin. And it's not just Mormons that understand that. And now our conversation has come full circle and we can return to the topic of sources of scripture and canon. Since we've determined that a belief in polygamy such as was practiced by Joseph doesn't in any way disqualify him as a prophet. So I'll say again, I'll take Joseph's inspired revelations over the philosophizing of the Ecumenical councils and their political motivations. Any day. 1
Jim Stiles Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said: SEE https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng We believe the Bible to be the word of God... . we make no exclusions from which versions of the Bible are the word of God. There are three degree's of glory in Heaven. For there to be a 3rd there must be a 1st and 2nd. SEE http://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/12-2.htm I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. From our good friend BCSpace. Here is Barry Bickmore's Restoring the Ancient Church He gathers quite a few of them together. Here are some... Our understanding of the passage [1 Corinthians 15:40-42] indeed is, that the Apostle, wishing to describe the great difference among those who rise in glory, i.e., of the saints, barrowed a comparison from the heavenly bodies, saying, "One glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, another glory of the stars." Origen, De Principiis 2:10:2, in ANF 4:294 "And some are connected with the Father, being part of Him, and next to these, those whom our argument now brings into clearer light, those who have come to the Saviour and take their stand entirely with him. And third are those of whom we spoke, who reckon the sun and the moon and the stars to be gods, and take their stand by them. And in the fourth and last place those who submit to soulless and dead idols." Origen, Commentary on John 2:3, in ANF 10:324-325 "And having said this, he ascends again to the heaven, saying, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon." For as in earthly bodies there is a difference, so also in the heavenly; and that difference no ordinary one, but reaching even to the uttermost: there being not only a difference betwen the sun and moon, and stars, but also between stars and stars. For what though they be all in the heaven? yet some have a larger, others a less share of glory. What do we learn from hence? That although they be all in God's kingdom, all shall not enjoy the same reward; and though all sinners be in hell, all shall not endure the same punishment." John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Corinthians 41:4, in NPNF Series 1, 12:251 [Clement of Alexandria] reckons three kinds of actions, the first of which is ...right or perfect action, which is characteristic of the perfect man and Gnostic alone, and raises him to the height of glory. The second is the class of...medium, or intermediate actions, which are done by less perfect believers, and procure a lower grade of glory. In the third place, he reckons sinful actions, which are done by those who fall away from salvation. Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 6:14, in ANF 2:506 "Conformably, therefore, there are various abodes, according to the worth of those who have believed... These chosen abodes, which are three, are indicated by the numbers in the Gospel--the thirty, the sixty, the hundred. And the perfect inheritance belongs to those who attain to "a perfect man," according to the image of the Lord... To the likeness of God, then, he that is introduced into adoption and the friendship of God, to the just inheritance of the lords and gods is brought; if he be perfected, according to the Gospel, as the Lord Himself taught." Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 6.14 (ANF 2:506). "This hidden world includes first of all the heavens. Of these, traditional Judaism knew only three: the heaven of meteors, the heaven of stars and the heaven of God, and this is the scheme employed in the older Jewish apocalyptic. It is this system to which Paul alludes." Some Jewish Christians elaborated the three-heaven system into one of seven or more heavens, but in all cases, beings of various degrees of glory were thought to inhabit them." Jean Dani Quote 2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. First heaven is the sky/atmosphere. Second heaven is interplanetary/interstellar/intergalactic space. Third heaven is where God and the elect angels live. I agree with the quote of John Chrysostom, but there is no way in heck you can ascribe to him a belief in what Joseph Smith Jr. called the three heavenly kingdoms. Re: previous post. You will not be welcome here if you compare any religion or person to a criminal or criminal activity such as Warren Jeffs.
Jim Stiles Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 2 hours ago, Calm said: I completely withdraw my comment of a few days ago that Jim Stiles was being civil (or whatever I said) and should not be included in the commentary on saved wheat. Why? If the posters in this forum like polygamy so much, they should be cognizant of the fact that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not recognize polygamous marriages. BTW, I think that governments should permit polygamy just so long as fraud is not being committed. Most cases of bigamy consist of one spouse having a secret spouse somewhere.
Avatar4321 Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 1 minute ago, Jim Stiles said: Why? If the posters in this forum like polygamy so much, they should be cognizant of the fact that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not recognize polygamous marriages. BTW, I think that governments should permit polygamy just so long as fraud is not being committed. Most cases of bigamy consist of one spouse having a secret spouse somewhere. No one is saying they like polygamy. Only that it's not sinful when God allows it. Even Martin Luther who believed the false doctrine of sola scriptura recognized there was nothing in the scriptures prohibiting it. The reason latter day saints do not allow plural marriage is because the Lord has told us not to practice it. One of the advantages of the living prophets is we can get the will of the Lord for our days 1
Jim Stiles Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: No one is saying they like polygamy. Only that it's not sinful when God allows it. Even Martin Luther who believed the false doctrine of sola scriptura recognized there was nothing in the scriptures prohibiting it. The reason latter day saints do not allow plural marriage is because the Lord has told us not to practice it. One of the advantages of the living prophets is we can get the will of the Lord for our days And the prophecy was revealed just after Utah was told that it would never become a state as long as polygamy continued to be practiced. If the prophecy was indeed from God, should it not have been revealed earlier so as to avoid the delay in statehood? One of the advantages of Sola Scriptura is that the body of Christ has an objective standard for both faith and life. Edited February 4, 2016 by Jim Stiles grammar
Calm Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 1 hour ago, Jim Stiles said: Why? See the mod's comment in your previous post. Pretty much covers my thoughts: Quote Re: previous post. You will not be welcome here if you compare any religion or person to a criminal or criminal activity such as Warren Jeffs.
Vance Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 On 2/2/2016 at 11:05 PM, Jim Stiles said: The following is a clarification of the reformed position: Your God is a God of demons, by your own admission. My God is a God of gods, by the word of the Bible. So, thanks for playing. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 (edited) On 1/30/2016 at 7:03 PM, Jim Stiles said: "After all we can do" means what a reasonably educated 19th century man would have thought it meant. It did not mean what FAIR or FARMS says it meant. If Joseph Smith Jr. was thinking of another meaning, then he would have used different words. FAIR and FARMS have no view on what the phrase means, but some individuals have expressed their opinions on the matter of grace, covenant, and works. Moreover, you are ignorant of the parallel texts, and other issues which arise in reading those texts. In law a deal is sometimes spoken of as consisting of an offer, an acceptance, and a consideration. However, just because you make a free offer doesn't mean that I accept it. So, is faith required to accept the free gift of grace? And is faith a "work"? Is it a Aconsideration@? How should we parse II Nephi 25:23? be reconciled unto God; for we know that it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do. II Nephi 10:24 reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved. Alma 24:11 it has been all that we could do . . . to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain . . . . Should we follow Stephen Robinson here in his suggestion that Aafter@ is a preposition of separation, suggesting that we are saved by grace Aapart@ from all we can do, while at the same time requiring that we be faithful to the covenant.[1] Or do we understand it according to Brant Gardner's suggestion that the "after all we can do" refers to centuries of observance of the Law of Moses, i,.e., "after" being sequential in time, with the Law of Moses being the type which looks forward to the antitype which fulfills the Law.[2] [1] Robinson, Believing Christ: The Parable of the Bicycle and Other Good News (Deseret Book, 1992), 91-92 (91, “regardless of all we can do”); cf. Robert Millet, After All We Can Do . . . Grace Works (Deseret Book, 2001); both cited by Spencer, An Other Testament, 94-95. [2] Spencer, An Other Testament, 94‑95, citing Brant Gardner, Second Witness, I:343-344. Edited February 4, 2016 by Robert F. Smith 2
thesometimesaint Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 7 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: First heaven is the sky/atmosphere. Second heaven is interplanetary/interstellar/intergalactic space. Third heaven is where God and the elect angels live. I agree with the quote of John Chrysostom, but there is no way in heck you can ascribe to him a belief in what Joseph Smith Jr. called the three heavenly kingdoms. Re: previous post. You will not be welcome here if you compare any religion or person to a criminal or criminal activity such as Warren Jeffs. The Bible make no such distinction. The sky was where Heaven is. The Bible make no such statements concerning any interplanetary/interstellar/intergalactic space. I already said that there are three degrees of glory in Heaven. Precisely what John Chrysostom is claiming.
Avatar4321 Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 11 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: And the prophecy was revealed just after Utah was told that it would never become a state as long as polygamy continued to be practiced. If the prophecy was indeed from God, should it not have been revealed earlier so as to avoid the delay in statehood? One of the advantages of Sola Scriptura is that the body of Christ has an objective standard for both faith and life. Actually the Revelation had nothing to do with Utah becoming a state, though that was a consequence. You really show read the manifesto and explanations. They are quite clear. Sola scriptura is a false doctrine. It is not scriptural and denies workings of the Holy Ghost. 1
Popular Post sheilauk Posted February 4, 2016 Popular Post Posted February 4, 2016 12 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: One of the advantages of Sola Scriptura is that the body of Christ has an objective standard for both faith and life. There is nothing objective about sola scriptura otherwise ALL the various churches would agree on doctrine and the meaning of every verse. From what I've read, even the various evangelical churches can disagree with meanings. Even those who claim sola scriptura add to the scriptures when they interpret them - something you have done on this thread. All scripture must be interpreted and interpretations are subjective. 5
busybee Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 17 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: I do not know what was in those books. You do know either. The burden of proof remains with those who would like to change things. Like those who say Christ went to condemn the spirits in prison rather than preach to them? You stated that the books do not contain what LDS hope they contain. To make that statement you need to have knowledge of what is contained in those books. So perhaps you'd like to retract that statement.
Jim Stiles Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 33 minutes ago, sheilauk said: There is nothing objective about sola scriptura otherwise ALL the various churches would agree on doctrine and the meaning of every verse. From what I've read, even the various evangelical churches can disagree with meanings. Even those who claim sola scriptura add to the scriptures when they interpret them - something you have done on this thread. All scripture must be interpreted and interpretations are subjective. Not all of the non-LDS churches hold to Sola Scriptura. Many do, however, and those churches agree on many things. If an infallible pope/prophet is required to interpret scripture, then why would we not need an infallible guide to interpret the infallible pope/prophet?
Jim Stiles Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said: Actually the Revelation had nothing to do with Utah becoming a state, though that was a consequence. You really show read the manifesto and explanations. They are quite clear. Sola scriptura is a false doctrine. It is not scriptural and denies workings of the Holy Ghost. Sola Scriptura protects the church from people like David Koresh.
thesometimesaint Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 1 hour ago, Jim Stiles said: Sola Scriptura protects the church from people like David Koresh. It didn't protect Martin Luther explosions of flatulence.
JLHPROF Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 1 hour ago, Jim Stiles said: Sola Scriptura protects the church from people like David Koresh. No, Sola Scriptura prevents God from speaking to you again. You limit God to what he has already said and prohibit him saying anything further. And that actually contradicts the Bible. 2
Jim Stiles Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 21 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: No, Sola Scriptura prevents God from speaking to you again. You limit God to what he has already said and prohibit him saying anything further. And that actually contradicts the Bible. Many people who claim that God has spoken to them spout complete nonsense.
JLHPROF Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said: Many people who claim that God has spoken to them spout complete nonsense. I know. It's so true. There was Paul, and Abraham, and David, and Solomon, and John, and Peter, and Jacob, and Moses, and Mary, and Zacharias, and Enoch, and, oh, who was that last one...oh yeah, Jesus. All these people that had God or his messengers speak directly to them. Just crazy. Good thing that stopped completely after the Book of Revelation was recorded right? We should be thankful God had nothing more to say to anyone. Edited February 4, 2016 by JLHPROF 3
Avatar4321 Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 4 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: Sola Scriptura protects the church from people like David Koresh. could have fooled me. There are just as many false teachers preaching sola scriptura. More in fact. and it still denies the power of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is God. Thus He speaks the Word of God. Thus in order for the Bible to be all the Word of God we have, we have to deny the Holy Ghost has any influence on the world. I cannot accept that because its false. In fact Christ promised us the gift of the Holy Ghost to lead and guide us. We are supposed to rely on the Spirit and not on our falliable interpretation of scriptures. Trust the Spirit, not in the flesh. to paraphrase Oliver cowdery, can men claim authority from God when they deny revelation? If we seek Gods authority and guidence, if we seek a relationship with him, we cannot tell him to shut up and expect us to know Him 2
Avatar4321 Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 2 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: Many people who claim that God has spoken to them spout complete nonsense. which is precisely why we tell people not take our word for it. We invite all men to ask the Lord for themselves. The Book of Mormon is available for studying. Read it. Ponder the message and ask God. He will show you it is true.
Jim Stiles Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 5 hours ago, Avatar4321 said: could have fooled me. There are just as many false teachers preaching sola scriptura. More in fact. and it still denies the power of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is God. Thus He speaks the Word of God. Thus in order for the Bible to be all the Word of God we have, we have to deny the Holy Ghost has any influence on the world. I cannot accept that because its false. In fact Christ promised us the gift of the Holy Ghost to lead and guide us. We are supposed to rely on the Spirit and not on our falliable interpretation of scriptures. Trust the Spirit, not in the flesh. to paraphrase Oliver cowdery, can men claim authority from God when they deny revelation? If we seek Gods authority and guidence, if we seek a relationship with him, we cannot tell him to shut up and expect us to know Him Name all of them that you know.
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