BookofMormonLuvr Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Please direct me to online sources showing a connection between modern LDS Temple ordinances (esp. Endowment) with ancient Temple practices. I am sincerely trying to be open minded about them, and would consider being rebaptized if I can find some compelling evidence. It wouldn't be because I believe in all the teachings of the LDS Church, or believe in exclusive authority, but to avail myself of true ordinances if they are, in deed, true. I can keep my mouth shut about other things, and show up every week to get my "active Mormon" card stamped in order to go to the Temple- and do my own thing on Sabbath and the Appointed Days. So... show me what ya got.
Maidservant Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 They are not just ordinances, they are also covenants (beginning with baptism). I would be wary of making covenants I had no desire to keep, true or not. Not a one-to-one correspondence, but I have been fascinated by the academies of Shem and Eber, although I can't seem to find original source on this either. I think anything you can study regarding Enoch, Melchizedek, Shem may suggest some wisdom for you. Of course, the best source is the Genesis Adam and Eve. That that text exists at all and holds the meaning(s) it does. 1
Sanpitch Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Sorry to discourage you but according to my fanatical JW wife who studies the bible constantly, there is nothing in the bible about temple use that can in anyway compare with modern Mormonism use of the temples. Maybe slight exceptions but I'll bet she's mostly correct. Women were not allowed in the temple and marriage had nothing to do with temple rites.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted January 23, 2016 Author Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Sanpitch said: Sorry to discourage you but according to my fanatical JW wife who studies the bible constantly, there is nothing in the bible about temple use that can in anyway compare with modern Mormonism use of the temples. Maybe slight exceptions but I'll bet she's mostly correct. Women were not allowed in the temple and marriage had nothing to do with temple rites. That is my current understanding also, but I am giving it one more good open-minded try and want to dig in a little deeper this time. Edited January 23, 2016 by BookofMormonLuvr
Calm Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Not sure if this is what you are looking for, but I found it worthwhile: http://publications.mi.byu.edu/book/the-sermon-at-the-temple-and-the-sermon-on-the-mount/ 2
Maidservant Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Actually temple is all over in the Old Testament. In plain sight and misunderstood. How about: "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." We think this means not to swear, but I don't think it does. All the importance and salvific (transformative effect) of names in the OT. So, your best source IS the Old Testament--dive even deeper into those waters. The Old Testament (and the Bible entire) is not about what it seems to be about on the surface of the stories. 1
BookofMormonLuvr Posted January 23, 2016 Author Posted January 23, 2016 43 minutes ago, Maidservant said: They are not just ordinances, they are also covenants (beginning with baptism). I would be wary of making covenants I had no desire to keep, true or not. Not a one-to-one correspondence, but I have been fascinated by the academies of Shem and Eber, although I can't seem to find original source on this either. I think anything you can study regarding Enoch, Melchizedek, Shem may suggest some wisdom for you. Of course, the best source is the Genesis Adam and Eve. That that text exists at all and holds the meaning(s) it does. Having been through the Temple before, I understand what is involved and see no issue obeying those things while having theological issues with the church itself. What got me thinking about this, one more time, is the fact that the ancient Hebrews still had to bring sacrifices, burnt offerings, tithes, etc... to the leaders at Jerusalem even when those leaders were corrupt. Now, I don't believe LDS leaders are as corrupt as the leaders of the ancient Jewish church, but I believe some things are off.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted January 23, 2016 Author Posted January 23, 2016 20 minutes ago, Maidservant said: Actually temple is all over in the Old Testament. In plain sight and misunderstood. How about: "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." We think this means not to swear, but I don't think it does. All the importance and salvific (transformative effect) of names in the OT. So, your best source IS the Old Testament--dive even deeper into those waters. The Old Testament (and the Bible entire) is not about what it seems to be about on the surface of the stories. I am a Hebrew Roots believer, so the OT is vitally important to me as well as the "learning of the Jews" approach to it (as opposed to the western approach). 1
strappinglad Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 I found the " Joseph Smith Papyrus " by Nibley to be quite informative on the Egyptian temple practices and how they connect to modern ones. Some of the images are obvious. The book is,however, sleep inducing so I had to read it in small bites. 3
volgadon Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 No offence, but Hebrew Roots is a bit of a misnomer IMHO.
livy111us Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 This book is a very good start. It's VERY expensive if you buy a hardback copy, but it is free online. http://www.legrandlbaker.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Who-Shall-Ascend-into-the-Hill-of-the-Lord-reduced.pdf This Facebook group generates some great discussion as well https://www.facebook.com/groups/552050204899532/ 2
BookofMormonLuvr Posted January 23, 2016 Author Posted January 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, volgadon said: No offence, but Hebrew Roots is a bit of a misnomer IMHO. Alrighty. Thanks for your HO.
mfbukowski Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sanpitch said: Sorry to discourage you but according to my fanatical JW wife who studies the bible constantly, there is nothing in the bible about temple use that can in anyway compare with modern Mormonism use of the temples. Maybe slight exceptions but I'll bet she's mostly correct. Women were not allowed in the temple and marriage had nothing to do with temple rites. I think your wife needs to learn more. Why would anyone listen to a JW about the LDS temple? Margaret Baker has written volumes if anyone is interested. Matt Bowman as well. Bryce Haymond http://www.templestudy.com/author/admin/ Edited January 23, 2016 by mfbukowski 2
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 You can study the Masons to see similarities but where the Masons got their origins I don't know.
mfbukowski Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, BookofMormonLuvr said: Having been through the Temple before, I understand what is involved and see no issue obeying those things while having theological issues with the church itself. What got me thinking about this, one more time, is the fact that the ancient Hebrews still had to bring sacrifices, burnt offerings, tithes, etc... to the leaders at Jerusalem even when those leaders were corrupt. Now, I don't believe LDS leaders are as corrupt as the leaders of the ancient Jewish church, but I believe some things are off. Quote 11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21And having an high priest over the house of God;22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) 24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. Hebrews 10 Edited January 23, 2016 by mfbukowski Added bolding 1
Sanpitch Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) 22 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I think your wife needs to learn more. Why would anyone listen to a JW about the LDS temple? Margaret Baker has written volumes if anyone is interested. Matt Bowman as well. Bryce Haymond http://www.templestudy.com/author/admin/ Because JWs know more about the bible than LDS do. And this JW lady has been active LDS and knows the rituals but not in the temple. Edited January 23, 2016 by Sanpitch
mfbukowski Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Exodus 40 Quote 12 And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water. 13 And thou shalt put upon Aaron the holy garments, and anoint him, and sanctify him; that he may minister unto me in the priest's office. 14 And thou shalt bring his sons, and clothe them with coats: 15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations. 1 Cor 15 Quote 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
mfbukowski Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Quote 21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. 22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. 23 And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father's house. 24 And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and the issue, all vessels of small quantity, from the vessels of cups, even to all the vessels of flagons. 25 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall the nail that is fastened in the sure place be removed, and be cut down, and fall; and the burden that was upon it shall be cut off: for the Lord hath spoken it. Isaiah 22
mfbukowski Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Quote 17 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. 9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. Matt17
filovirus Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Can I offer a little caution in this line of thought. Pascal's wager does not carry any promise of salvation. In fact, it was this line of thought that got the Pharisees in trouble. They believed if they did all the requirements of the Mosaic Law they would be saved. They were putting obedience above faith, when in fact faith and obedience go hand in hand. 1
BookofMormonLuvr Posted January 23, 2016 Author Posted January 23, 2016 1 hour ago, livy111us said: This book is a very good start. It's VERY expensive if you buy a hardback copy, but it is free online. http://www.legrandlbaker.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Who-Shall-Ascend-into-the-Hill-of-the-Lord-reduced.pdf This Facebook group generates some great discussion as well https://www.facebook.com/groups/552050204899532/ I have skimmed the first little bit, and come across an interesting phenomenon that I encountered in another LDS work: It seems LDS scholars have a distinctly different opinion of King Josiah than what the Bible offers up. That instead of getting rid of the false traditions in their worship, his actions actually stopped true and correct worship in Judah. 1
rodheadlee Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sanpitch said: Because JWs know more about the bible than LDS do. And this JW lady has been active LDS and knows the rituals but not in the temple. The JWs have their own Bible. They also do not believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ, to the best of my recollection. They also don't get that Jehovah of the Old Testament is Jesus Christ of the New Testament. We studied with them for a year or so and then the LDS missionaries showed up, after much prayer. Sorry for the derail. Edited January 23, 2016 by rodheadlee
mfbukowski Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Quote 6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. 7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. John 10 Quote 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Rev 3
JLHPROF Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 2 hours ago, Sanpitch said: Sorry to discourage you but according to my fanatical JW wife who studies the bible constantly, there is nothing in the bible about temple use that can in anyway compare with modern Mormonism use of the temples. Maybe slight exceptions but I'll bet she's mostly correct. Women were not allowed in the temple and marriage had nothing to do with temple rites. Nah. The temple ceremonies of the OT were limited to Aaronic order ordinances. That is why there were no women involved or marriage ceremonies. If they had had Melchezidek priesthood their ordinances would be much different. So looking to compare Biblical temple ordinances with modern LDS ones is a wild goose chase for something that should only have passing similarities. However, pretty much everything in modern LDS temples is represented in the Bible, with just a few exceptions.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted January 23, 2016 Author Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) 24 minutes ago, filovirus said: Can I offer a little caution in this line of thought. Pascal's wager does not carry any promise of salvation. In fact, it was this line of thought that got the Pharisees in trouble. They believed if they did all the requirements of the Mosaic Law they would be saved. They were putting obedience above faith, when in fact faith and obedience go hand in hand. What exactly would I be lacking? I would have faith in God, Jesus, keep Their commandments and acknowledge Their ordinances. Is not personally accepting everything the men leading the church teach lack of faith or obedience? If I decide to REST on Sabbath and worship on Sunday and keep the Appointed Times instead of pagan inspired Christian holidays is that somehow unacceptable? I fail to see how what you are saying applies to my circumstance. Edited January 23, 2016 by BookofMormonLuvr
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