A thought on eternal families

[Avatar4321]

The gospel of Jesus Christ doesn't just give us the power to be sealed to each other as eternal families. It gives us the power to become the people mwe would want to spend eternity with.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I always wonder what happens in regards to sealings when a young couple gets married and the husband dies and they don't have kids, then the wife remarries and has kids and wants to be sealed to her new husband and gets a sealing cancellation on her first husband. That sucks for the first husband.

[Sleeper Cell]

6 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I always wonder what happens in regards to sealings when a young couple gets married and the husband dies and they don't have kids, then the wife remarries and has kids and wants to be sealed to her new husband and gets a sealing cancellation on her first husband. That sucks for the first husband.

A sealing does not confer “ownership.“  Even if there were no sealing cancellation, it is inconceivable to me that a sealing would remain in effect, should either the husband or wife change his/her mind. 

[Rain]

7 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I always wonder what happens in regards to sealings when a young couple gets married and the husband dies and they don't have kids, then the wife remarries and has kids and wants to be sealed to her new husband and gets a sealing cancellation on her first husband. That sucks for the first husband.

I suspect the young man that I know in this situation is just fine. He was one to roll with the punches and trusted in the Lord. 

His wife struggled with it for awhile and has dealt with it. Some of his family really struggled with it all. Some are ok that she has moved on and they remain friends. 

I trust the Lord will take care of him and everyone close to him.

Edited January 2, 2016 by Rain

[Rain]

10 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

The gospel of Jesus Christ doesn't just give us the power to be sealed to each other as eternal families. It gives us the power to become the people mwe would want to spend eternity with.

Good thought. 

[Ahab]

17 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I always wonder what happens in regards to sealings when a young couple gets married and the husband dies and they don't have kids, then the wife remarries and has kids and wants to be sealed to her new husband and gets a sealing cancellation on her first husband. That sucks for the first husband.

I think the Lord helps us to make lemonade from lemons,  so to speak, so that in every sad situation our Lord has a way to make everybody happy. I imagine it would be kinda like having gone steady with someone back in the past where things just didn't work out for them to get (or stay) married, even though in that case they would have gotten married and stayed married until they separated at death. They would still most probably continue to have fond feelings for each other, because of the good things they shared in their past, even though they would then be happily married to other people. The one who died having met someone else in the spirit world.

[salgare]

21 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

It gives us the power to become the people we would want to spend eternity with.

I have a very good relationship with my wife, children and grand children.  Assuming all of them "make it", and I remain an apostate to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I assume they would want to spend eternity with me (verses being re-sealed to another non-apostate father, or being servants to such). Extend this thought/situation to extended families, I image that most every member in the Church have children, siblings, extended family members in this situation.

Do you believe that mortal relationships and desires to maintain them will just cease?  Do you feel the punishment/consequences will not painfully affect all parties?  Do you really believe this is fair/right?

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66700-do-apostates-go-to-spirit-prison/?do=findComment&comment=1209573077

I do not believe your statement, nor do I believe a moral God would ever create/enforce such a system.

 

 

Edited January 2, 2016 by salgare

[Avatar4321]

7 hours ago, salgare said:

I have a very good relationship with my wife, children and grand children.  Assuming all of them "make it", and I remain an apostate to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I assume they would want to spend eternity with me (verses being re-sealed to another non-apostate father, or being servants to such). Extend this thought/situation to extended families, I image that most every member in the Church have children, siblings, extended family members in this situation.

Do you believe that mortal relationships and desires to maintain them will just cease?  Do you feel the punishment/consequences will not painfully affect all parties?  Do you really believe this is fair/right?

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66700-do-apostates-go-to-spirit-prison/?do=findComment&comment=1209573077

I do not believe your statement, nor do I believe a moral God would ever create/enforce such a system.

 

 

if you don't want to face the consequence of your actions make different choices. No one can stop you from your eternal family but yourself.

[salgare]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

if you don't want to face the consequence of your actions make different choices. No one can stop you from your eternal family but yourself.

We come back to My God has no such requirements and consequences.  As the expected Patriarch (in the Holy Order sense) I only desire to free my posterity from this fear based indoctrination.

Why would one come back to immoral beliefs enforced by a corrupt Corporation?

Avatar, do you not have someone in your immediate family or extended whom will not make it?  You have avoided my question of your willingness to reject this individuals of being the type of which you do not want to have any association with.

Edited January 3, 2016 by salgare

[Glenn101]

11 hours ago, salgare said:

We come back to My God has no such requirements and consequences.  As the expected Patriarch (in the Holy Order sense) I only desire to free my posterity from this fear based indoctrination.

Why would one come back to immoral beliefs enforced by a corrupt Corporation?

Avatar, do you not have someone in your immediate family or extended whom will not make it?  You have avoided my question of your willingness to reject this individuals of being the type of which you do not want to have any association with.

When you say "My God" this or that, are you not remaking God into your own image of what you think God should be???

 

I don't think that avatar or anyone else can say with authority or any degree of confidence if they have anyone in their family or extended that will or will not "make it". That is God's province to make that judgement.

 

Would you also let us know just what your current understanding or what your current theology is concerning God and the next life. If you do not feel the LDS doctrine is correct have you developed your own theology on families in the next life or do you buy into the mainstream Protestant theology???

 

Glenn

[omni]

I'll admit my ignorance of most other faiths, but surely we can't be the only one who believes we can be reunited in the afterlife.  I served my mission in a predominantly catholic country and each time we shared our message of families being together forever, they'd politely agree and state they believe something similar.  

Of course they didn't use the word "seal" and I don't remember any particular ordinance or ritual they needed to complete in order for this to occur, but the main idea was the same.

Are there other Christian religions that specifically claim that family members cannot be together in heaven?

 

Edited January 3, 2016 by omni

[Ahab]

Bottom line is that wanting to be sealed (or eternally put together) with those we love is not enough to make it happen. That's like a child who thinks that saying "I want it" is enough to make it happen. And even if we are willing to "work" at something to try to make it happen there are still some things our Father would need to help us with that we won't be able to do on our own. Like putting us in the same general location together and helping us to find them after we die. And that will only happen if our Father helps us to make it happen, if and when he wants it to happen.

So it is not what we want but the power of God that makes something happen if and when God wants that to happen. And the power of God is aka the priesthood. And it is through ordinances that the power of God, aka the priesthood, is manifested. 

[omni]

28 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Bottom line is that wanting to be sealed (or eternally put together) with those we love is not enough to make it happen. That's like a child who thinks that saying "I want it" is enough to make it happen. And even if we are willing to "work" at something to try to make it happen there are still some things our Father would need to help us with that we won't be able to do on our own. Like putting us in the same general location together and helping us to find them after we die. And that will only happen if our Father helps us to make it happen, if and when he wants it to happen.

So it is not what we want but the power of God that makes something happen if and when God wants that to happen. And the power of God is aka the priesthood. And it is through ordinances that the power of God, aka the priesthood, is manifested. 

So if me and my family are all sent to the Terrestial Kingdom, what prevents us from being together?  Does God put us each in separate corners?  What would be the point?

[salgare]

7 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

When you say "My God" this or that, are you not remaking God into your own image of what you think God should be???

I proposed elsewhere that this use was needed by me when conflicts of what I recently learned seem to be internal conflicts of particularism offending universalism instead of bridging basic morals into higher laws.  It is my declaration that the particularism of the modern day Church is in conflict with whatever levels of my own universalism to particularism journey has lead me.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66694-these-are-three-grand-keys/?do=findComment&comment=1209573794

How was that as a horrible attempt for me to use big words?

"I don't think that avatar or anyone else can say with authority or any degree of confidence if they have anyone in their family or extended that will or will not "make it". That is God's province to make that judgement."

I've given up on the editor quote system.

Nor am I hearing that is what he said or would feel.  I'm trying to get others to consider a different view here.  My offense/question about the OP is this part of the statement:

"It gives us the power to become the people we would want to spend eternity with. "

That says to me that an individual making it to the Celestial Kingdom will be so pleased that they now get to spend eternity with only individuals of equal caliber and to hell Terrestrial with that colorful Pops.  It will be so glorious that we are now separated from his kind.

Would you also let us know just what your current understanding or what your current theology is concerning God and the next life. If you do not feel the LDS doctrine is correct have you developed your own theology on families in the next life or do you buy into the mainstream Protestant theology???

I once likened it to a splinter from a cactus, you can't see the darn thing and it does not hurt until you bump it in just the right direction.  As hard as I try to find that splinter and yank it once and for all  I can't seem to do it.

The metaphysical concepts like those of Orson Pratt (i.e. premotal 1/2 of the seer), Adam-God as understood by BHR (The Truth the Way the Light) and taught by JS (King Follett Discourse) and of course BY.  The concepts of personal revelation and a loving God.

Glenn I have no clue who/what God is nor anything to offer on what death might bring us.  As much as I try to be agnostic or even atheist, finding and pulling that splinter is continually defeated by memories of powerful experiences with the spirit.  And even to this day finding them only my closet and a prayer away.

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2016 by salgare

[Avatar4321]

20 hours ago, salgare said:

We come back to My God has no such requirements and consequences.  As the expected Patriarch (in the Holy Order sense) I only desire to free my posterity from this fear based indoctrination.

Why would one come back to immoral beliefs enforced by a corrupt Corporation?

Avatar, do you not have someone in your immediate family or extended whom will not make it?  You have avoided my question of your willingness to reject this individuals of being the type of which you do not want to have any association with.

I don't know who your God is. But the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is a just and Holy God. He keeps his word even if others dont like it. I of course would be sad if anyone chose not to receive the celestial glory and an eternal family, but you cannot expect to violate Gods laws and be immune from the consequences.

if I decided a just God wouldn't enforce the laws of gravity and jumped from an airplane would God be unjust if I was killed for violating that law? Why would his laws regarding His holy order be different? Is God unjust because I face consequences for my actions? Moreover how would God be just if I didn't?

[salgare]

Avatar,

I assume this time you have not avoided my question but have answered indirectly.  Is my following take from your answer what you intended:

1. Some law of the universe demands this seperation

2. Your God has no option other than to enforce this law

3. As a celestial being you happy with the enforced separation of you as the wheat from immediate and extended family tares, whom you deeply loved through mortality.

4. Because it was those family members chose to reject the Church, its there own fault so how could I care, they broke the law.  Yes its so nice to be surround with only those at my worthiness level.

Maybe you did not intend to answer indirectly, or maybe you are unclear on my question.  I will try and rephrase it.

Heaven to you is a place where all the individuals have passed a given set of filtering rules allowing them beautiful mansions with equally righteous neighbors.

This neighborhood of individuals with sadness for dear relatives lack of righteousness worthy to allow them your presence anymore, none the less carry on with heavenly joy.

The sad part is that we see this happen here in mortality, leaving loved ones, because of their unrighteousness in our temple parking lots as they seal up their eternal families, happy with the separation of the worthy and unworthy.  No second thoughts other than Pops chose poorly based on my indoctrination.

It is indeed an evidence of the fruits of your God.

 

Edited January 3, 2016 by salgare

[Ahab]

21 hours ago, omni said:

So if me and my family are all sent to the Terrestial Kingdom, what prevents us from being together?  Does God put us each in separate corners?  What would be the point?

My point was that you/we need the power of God to make it happen and that the power of God is manifested by priesthood ordinances. 

So first tell me what you and your family would do on your own, without the power of God to help you. The Telestial kingdom includes more than one planet, and even only one planet is a pretty big place.  

Would you at least ask God if you and your family could be placed on the same Telestial order planet and in the same general location on that planet? And would all of your family also ask for that as well?  Even in a large city it can be hard to find people if you don't know where they are, so you might want to also ask for God's help to know exactly how to find everybody and maybe get God's agreement to help you in every other way possible so that you can somehow find EVERYBODY in your family.  You've probably got more family than you're even aware of right now.

[Tacenda]

On 1/3/2016 at 7:37 AM, omni said:

I'll admit my ignorance of most other faiths, but surely we can't be the only one who believes we can be reunited in the afterlife.  I served my mission in a predominantly catholic country and each time we shared our message of families being together forever, they'd politely agree and state they believe something similar.  

Of course they didn't use the word "seal" and I don't remember any particular ordinance or ritual they needed to complete in order for this to occur, but the main idea was the same.

Are there other Christian religions that specifically claim that family members cannot be together in heaven?

 

I think the adage "families are forever" in our church is deceiving.  It's more harmful because if one doesn't live up to their covenants they are separated.  When in other faiths, heaven includes all loved ones together, no separation of heavens.  I think the church sees it as marriages are forever, and non LDS still think forever whether it's said otherwise in the wedding vow or not.   And maybe in the non LDS mind, there is no need for marriage according to the Saviour. Therefore the church belief might separate rather than keep together.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Tacenda

[salgare]

On 1/3/2016 at 1:38 PM, omni said:

So if me and my family are all sent to the Terrestial Kingdom, what prevents us from being together?  Does God put us each in separate corners?  What would be the point?

This part of the doctrine gets ugly.  Somehow you are lobotomized (for lack of a better term) to no longer even realize you were part of a family.  I guess the better term would be some kind of veil is placed over your remembrances of family.  On top of this your physical body becomes sexless.  Since you are not worthy of parenting spirit bodies, you are basically neutered/spayed.  Thus no need for corners, you've been rendered harmless from interaction with anyone, including family members you have forgotten.

Edited January 4, 2016 by salgare

[Jeanne]

8 minutes ago, salgare said:

This part of the doctrine gets ugly.  Somehow you are lobotomized (for lack of a better term) to no longer even realize you were part of a family.  I guess the better term would be some kind of veil is placed over your remembrances of family.  On top of this your physical body becomes sexless.  Since you not worthy of parenting spirit bodies you are basically neutered/spayed.  Thus no need for corners, you've been rendered harmless from interaction with anyone, including family members you have forgotten.

I had always thought that this would be a part of our own hell..having family members around..knowing them..and not being able to associate.  I don't want to live with them..I just want to visit.  I have two over thirty kids living with me...please..please..send me to another kingdom!

Edited January 4, 2016 by Jeanne

[salgare]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I had always thought that this would be a part of our own hell..having family members around..knowing them..and not being able to associate.  I don't want to live with them..I just want to visit.

Well in theory there is no punishment of any kind after resurrection.  Your statement makes good sense for actually punishment in the Spirit Prison hell.   Remember this is still in the "Period of this Life", where I assume there is no veil between hell and the mortal earth.  Also remember that this hell has a limited time of punishment, not eternal.

But at the time of resurrection

Edited January 5, 2016 by salgare

[rockpond]

On 1/2/2016 at 10:56 PM, Sleeper Cell said:

A sealing does not confer “ownership.“  Even if there were no sealing cancellation, it is inconceivable to me that a sealing would remain in effect, should either the husband or wife change his/her mind. 

 

On 1/2/2016 at 10:15 AM, Ahab said:

I think the Lord helps us to make lemonade from lemons,  so to speak, so that in every sad situation our Lord has a way to make everybody happy. I imagine it would be kinda like having gone steady with someone back in the past where things just didn't work out for them to get (or stay) married, even though in that case they would have gotten married and stayed married until they separated at death. They would still most probably continue to have fond feelings for each other, because of the good things they shared in their past, even though they would then be happily married to other people. The one who died having met someone else in the spirit world.

So a sealing isn't really an eternally binding ordinance... It's just a thing we do here on earth, but in the end, we'll just be with whomever we & the Lord want us to be with regardless of whatever temple work was done here in mortality.

[Ahab]

I think of a sealing as a bind that will last forever unless we change our mind.

It's not like the Lord would ever force us to keep our promises.