A Review of Recent Trends Re: Ordination of Women in LDS Church

[smac97]

41 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

Yes, Elder Oaks is cutting things very fine here.

And finest of all is when he says, "The Lord has directed that only men will be ordained to offices in the priesthood."

That is flat-out wrong.

Elder Oaks provided no reference for this critical statement.

And that is because there is no direction from the Lord to that effect.

Aaaand we're done.

Reasonable discourse is not in the cards, I think, so I will abstain from attempting such with you.

And with that, let's get back on topic.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Avatar4321]

2 hours ago, consiglieri said:

Well, he is just repeating the same old pablum and quoting from scripture to support it.

The spirit of prophecy should be made of sterner stuff.

 

Let me know when you obtain the spirit of prophecy and I'll consider whether to accept you as an authority on the spirit of prophecy. Until the I'll rely on the Holy Scriptures, words of the prophets, and my own experiences with it

[Avatar4321]

2 hours ago, consiglieri said:

How do you propose to dispute it?

Thanks,

-Consiglieri

How about we start with the quote from president Kimball that you ignored when you claimed he wouldn't answer the CFR after he did?

[Avatar4321]

2 hours ago, consiglieri said:

Yes, Elder Oaks is cutting things very fine here.

And finest of all is when he says, "The Lord has directed that only men will be ordained to offices in the priesthood."

That is flat-out wrong.

Elder Oaks provided no reference for this critical statement.

And that is because there is no direction from the Lord to that effect.

Elder oaks is  the authority. He is then one called by the Lord to be that authority

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, consiglieri said:

Yes, Elder Oaks is cutting things very fine here.

And finest of all is when he says, "The Lord has directed that only men will be ordained to offices in the priesthood."

That is flat-out wrong.

Elder Oaks provided no reference for this critical statement.

And that is because there is no direction from the Lord to that effect.

Maybe it would have been better if he had said "The Lord has only ever directed men be ordained to offices in the priesthood."  That's a statement of fact that can be supported with an appeal to LDS scriptures, where Christ only ever ordained, or directed to be ordained, men.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Maybe it would have been better if he had said "The Lord has only ever directed men be ordained to offices in the priesthood."  That's a statement of fact that can be supported with an appeal to LDS scriptures, where Christ only ever ordained, or directed to be ordained, men.

Or it may be that the statement is correct as it stands. Apostles, in the authority of their calling, do possess the gift of prophecy and revelation, notwithstanding fault finding by Consig. 

Edited December 19, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Russell C McGregor]

On ‎19‎/‎12‎/‎2015 at 4:38 AM, consiglieri said:

So you're citing to an article written by men in a patriarchal church in order to prove what is and isn't a prophet?

Given that you've immediately fallen back on the ad hominem fallacy, I take it you have no substantive response to offer?

 

Edited December 20, 2015 by Russell C McGregor

[Gray]

On 12/18/2015 at 11:37 AM, Storm Rider said:

A prophet, as in the one that holds the keys to the priesthood, must necessarily hold the priesthood in order to hold the keys.  That seems both obvious and rational.  

A prophet, as in one who receives revelation of Jesus Christ or even one who sees the future, is simply that and not one that holds the priesthood per se.  

Great, so does that mean Deborah held keys to the priesthood? 

[Gray]

On 12/19/2015 at 8:42 PM, Cold Steel said:

There's really no issue. You yourself reflect the distinction between "a prophet" and "the prophet." Any member of the church can be "a" prophet. And there are even those who are outside the church who have a reputation for making accurate prophecies. Church leaders have said that we LDS may have exclusive priesthood authority, but we don't have exclusive rights to truth, nor should we assume that God only works through the LDS church. Those who seek the Lord in spirit and in truth will receive from Him according to their ability to receive it. 

By whom? In personal correspondence, I frequently refer to Heber C. Kimball, Hyrum Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Orson Hyde and Sidney Rigdon as prophets -- because they were. Joseph's brother Hyrum is considered to be very much a prophet. Brigham Young used to say that his, Brigham's, strong point wasn't in making prophecies, and that when he needed someone to prophesy, he called Heber C. Kimball.

The significant title is PRESIDENT, which derives from PRESIDE. As a church member, I can prophesy concerning you, but I can't receive revelation for you. Your bishop can, but not me, nor anyone that is not specifically placed in authority over you. And no one can receive revelation for the church or any nation of the earth save he who holds the keys of binding in heaven and on earth. Anyone can prophesy who can tap into the Spirit of God, and many can. Jesus spoke, after all, of those who would lay claim to salvation in His Kingdom by saying, "Have we not prophesied in your name....?"

Change "prophet" in the first sentence to "president of the church" and we'll be in agreement. Oh, and one needn't hold the priesthood to prophesy, as has been shown above. 

"There are those who would assume that with the printing and binding of these sacred records, that would be the 'end of the prophets.' But again we testify to the world that revelation continues and that the vaults and files of the Church contain these revelations which come month to month and day to day. We testify also that there is, since 1830 when The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, and will continue to be, so long as time shall last, a prophet, recognized of God and his people, who will continue to interpret the mind and will of the Lord."  Spencer W. Kimball, "Revelation: The Word of the Lord to the Church," April 1977

 

That's interesting, I'd never heard that before, and it seems to be a hard to find quote. Of course he does not say that the revelations are "direct word for word revelations" which is what I was saying doesn't seem to happen anymore. But I wonder, how can any of us respond to secret revelations that are never shared with us?

President Hinckley said, of course, that revelation is quite rare in the church, only coming up in response to specific problems. 

In any case, we already have an example of a "Big P" woman prophet in the Bible, so your distinction doesn't seem relevant.  

[Gray]

On 12/18/2015 at 0:17 PM, smac97 said:

CFR that Debroah was "called" to be a "big P prophet" (assuming that "big P prophet" references a priesthood office).

Thanks,

-Smac

There is no indication that any of the OT prophets held priesthood as we understand it today. 

But here's a primer on Deborah, a prophet and judge in Israel:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborah

 

[Gray]

On 12/19/2015 at 9:23 AM, bluebell said:

Being a prophet doesn't require ordination. Being the prophet does.

The Prophet is the high priest of the church. He holds all the keys of the priesthood. 

That's why the Prophet must be a priesthood holder. 

Then perhaps Deborah did hold the priesthood. 

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, Gray said:

Then perhaps Deborah did hold the priesthood. 

There is no record that she did. There is no record or evidence that any prophetess from the bible was ordained.

 

[Gray]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

There is no record that she did. There is no record or evidence that any prophetess from the bible was ordained.

 

And how much evidence do we have for the priesthood ordination of male prophets in the same Bible? 

What's good for the goose is certainly good for the gander. 

[bluebell]

58 minutes ago, Gray said:

And how much evidence do we have for the priesthood ordination of male prophets in the same Bible? 

What's good for the goose is certainly good for the gander. 

True and that I don't have a problem with that because it doesn't impact the discussion.  We have plenty of evidence of 'ganders' being ordained in the the NT and other scriptures.  We don't need to be able to show that every prophet in the OT was ordained to support the doctrine that only males are ordained.    Whether or not Joel was ordained, for example, does not change LDS doctrine on the subject.  Not every man was ordained, nor does a prophet HAVE to be ordained.

However, having evidence of any 'geese' being ordained does impact the discussion.  Whether or not Deborah was ordained is significant.

[Zakuska]

The Bible Uses the Word Prophetess 8 times:

Exodus 15:20 - Mariam

Judges4:4 - Deborah

2 Kings 22:14 - Huldah

2 Chronicles 34:22 - Huldah

Nehemiah 6:14 - Noadiah

Isaiah 8:3 - ?

Luke 2:36 - Ana

Revelation 2:20 - Jezebel

Perhaps this might add to the Discussion!

Ordained Female Deaconesses in the 1st Century church.

Quote

After Huldah, the respected woman prophet, had authenticated the text for the king, he and the religious authorities had all the people gather at the Temple and the text was read to them.  When deaconesses were ordained in the early Church, Huldah was mentioned in the ceremony.

...

Huldah and Anna, faithful women, were seen as role models for consecrated women deacons and windows in the church. 

https://books.google.com/books?id=d3BJEi36NhEC&pg=PA99&lpg=PA99&dq=huldah+ordained&source=bl&ots=oFJMaLXf9N&sig=ImlOpqPjOZwTqr9_Z-ImWvZ1aqI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj0kqnvwO3JAhXSPB4KHQNFCMIQ6AEILzAE#v=onepage&q=huldah%20ordained&f=false

Edited December 21, 2015 by Zakuska

[Zakuska]

More Ordained Female Deaconesses in the 1st - 4th century Church.

 

Quote

 

Pauline text[edit]
The earliest clear mention of a woman being a deacon by Paul (AD 58) is in his Letter to the Romans 16:1 when he says: "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is the deacon of the church at Cenchreae." The original Greek says:οὖσαν διάκονον, ousan diakonon, being [the] [female] deacon of the church at Cenchreae. Many scholars agree that the phrase denotes 'an official title of a permanent ministry', documenting the existence of a diaconate including women. However, the term may refer to her serving in a more generic sense, without having a church ministry. This is the primary meaning, and also how Paul uses the term elsewhere in the letter to the Romans.[16]
A reference to the qualifications required of deacons appears Paul's first letter to Timothy ( I Tim 3:8–13):
Deacons likewise must be serious, not slanderers, but temperate, faithful in all things ... for those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith inChrist Jesus.[10]
— New Revised Standard Version. Zondervan: Grand Rapids, MI, 1993
This verse about "the women" stands in the middle of a whole section also addressing the men. However, the words regarding "the women" do not seem to refer to the wives of male deacons, but to deacons who are women. The transition is natural in Greek, because the same word διακονοι covers both men and women. To indicate the women, the Greeks would say διάκονοι γυναῖκες [= "deacon women"]. We find this expression in the church legislation of Justinian.[17] This interpretation is also followed by the early Greek Fathers such as John Chrysostom[18] and Theodore of Mopsuestia[19] It is through this verse that the leading women are reminded of their role in the diaconate and confirmed in their active participation in the offices of the church.
Several deaconesses are specifically commended who took part in the Jesus movement alongside himself. Two of these women are Priscilla and Phoebe of the church in Cenchreae. He describes both of these women as "helpers of many" and "servants of the church whose business in Rome warranted the support of all the saints" (Rom 16:1–2).[20]
When Paul mentions Phoebe, "our sister Phoebe [the] ἀδελφήν which means (sister) of the church of Cenchreae", he adds "she has been a helper of many and of myself as well". In describing her role and his in the congregation, Paul uses the Greek verb meaning "to be at the head of, to rule, to direct". In addition, Paul also speaks of other women who were ministers such as Mary, Tryphaena, Typhosa and Persis whom he writes "worked hard in the Lord" and "workers in the Lord" (v. 12). The contribution of these women is described by the same verb, χοπιάω, used to describe "toil" and "labour" (Matthew 11.28; John 4.6). Moreover, Paul uses this verb to describe his own work for the Lord and other apostolic labours. In addition, Mary's labour described as "among you" or "for your benefit" (v. 6) suggest a recognized role of ministry within the church. Probably these women had a ministry with other women, rather than over the whole church, because Paul prohibited women from teaching men in 1Timothy 2:10-12. Thus they were also excluded from leadership over the congregation, because church leaders had to be able to teach - rather than having a prohibition to teach the congregation(1Tim 3). Women, serving alongside Paul, thus probably taught other women. Since Paul´s prohibitions only refer to the church, they might have been involved in evangelistic preaching to men and women, as long as they were not part of the church.[21] The church at Philippi is another example of early involvement of women in important parts of church's ministry.[citation needed] In Paul’s letter to the Philippian church, he addresses the three women Euodia, Syntyche and a third, for which he uses the affectionate term, syzugē to mean "mate" (Phil. 4:1–3).[22] Through the Pauline epistles it is clear that deaconesses and other women exercised important roles identified and recognized as central within the office of the church.
Women as deacons[edit]
Two types of monastic women were typically ordained to the diaconate in the early and middle Byzantine period:abbesses and nuns with liturgical functions, as well as the wives of men who were being raised to the episcopacy. There was a strong association of deacons who were women with abbesses starting in the late fourth century or early fifth century in the East, and it occurred in the medieval period in the Latin as well as the Byzantine Church.[2]Principally, these women lived in the eastern part of the Roman Empire, where the office of deaconess was most often found.[10] There is literary evidence of a diaconate including women, particularly in Constantinople, and archaeological evidence of deaconesses in a number of other areas in the Empire, particularly Asia Minor.[2] One example of a woman from Constantinople being a deacon during the post-Constantine period was Olympias, a well-educated woman, who after being widowed devoted her life to the church and was ordained a deacon. She supported the church with gifts of land and her wealth which was typical during this period. Macrina, born in 330, the eldest sister ofBasil and Gregory of Nyssa, was also a well-known deacons who founded her own monastic community. Melaniaborn in Rome in 383, also founded monastic communities and provided hospices for pilgrims.[10] Deaconesses, like these wealthy women, were supporters of the church. In many cases they founded religious communities which welcomed all unmarried women, whether virgins or widows. Women who are deacons are often mistaken as being only widows or wives of deacons; and it is sometimes described that they came out of an order of widows. Minor church offices developed about the same time as the diaconate in response to the needs of growing churches. Widows, however, were elderly women of the congregation in need of economic help and social support due to their situation. This concept is mentioned in the first Acts 6:1 and 9:39–41 and 1 Timothy 5. These widows had no specific duties compared to that of the deacons. In the Apostolic Constitutions women who were deacons were recognized as having power over the widows in the church. The widows were cautioned to obey “women deacons with piety, reverence and fear.”[10] In the first four centuries of the church, widows were recognized members of the church who shared some similar functions of a deaconess; yet did not share the same responsibilities or importance.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaconess

Edited December 21, 2015 by Zakuska

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

 

President Hinckley said, of course, that revelation is quite rare in the church, only coming up in response to specific problems. 

CFR please

[Zakuska]

So we see women can be "Prophets".  When did the office of "Prophet" leave the church?

1 Cor 12

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.6 

Eph 4 

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 

[consiglieri]

On ‎12‎/‎19‎/‎2015 at 9:46 AM, smac97 said:

Aaaand we're done.

Reasonable discourse is not in the cards, I think, so I will abstain from attempting such with you.

And with that, let's get back on topic.

Thanks,

-Smac

How can one use a hammer without holding it?

How can a woman use the priesthood without holding it?

[consiglieri]

On ‎12‎/‎19‎/‎2015 at 11:03 AM, Avatar4321 said:

Let me know when you obtain the spirit of prophecy and I'll consider whether to accept you as an authority on the spirit of prophecy. Until the I'll rely on the Holy Scriptures, words of the prophets, and my own experiences with it

I have the spirit of prophecy.

In spades, baby!

Now you can reconsider.

 

[smac97]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

There is no indication that any of the OT prophets held priesthood as we understand it today. 

But here's a primer on Deborah, a prophet and judge in Israel:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborah

 

A Wikipedia entry doth not a "primer" make.

Meanwhile, we have references about the priesthood in the Old Testament, such as Moses 8:19 ("And the Lord ordained Noah after his own order..."), Deut. 34:9 ("And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the Lord commanded Moses"), Exodus 40:15 (specking of the sons of Aaron) ("And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest’s office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations"), D&C 2:1 ("Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet..."), D&C 84:18 ("And the Lord confirmed a priesthood also upon Aaron and his seed, throughout all their generations..."), D&C 84:25-26 ("Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also; and the lesser priesthood continued..."), D&C 84:6-17 ("And the sons of Moses, according to the Holy Priesthood which he received under the hand of his father-in-law, Jethro; And Jethro received it under the hand of Caleb; And Caleb received it under the hand of Elihu; And Elihu under the hand of Jeremy; And Jeremy under the hand of Gad; And Gad under the hand of Esaias; And Esaias received it under the hand of God.  Esaias also lived in the days of Abraham, and was blessed of him— Which Abraham received the priesthood from Melchizedek, who received it through the lineage of his fathers, even till Noah; And from Noah till Enoch, through the lineage of their fathers; And from Enoch to Abel, who was slain by the conspiracy of his brother, who received the priesthood by the commandments of God, by the hand of his father Adam, who was the first man—Which priesthood continueth in the church of God in all generations, and is without beginning of days or end of years.") and many others.

Thanks,

-Smac

[consiglieri]

On ‎12‎/‎19‎/‎2015 at 1:55 PM, bluebell said:

Maybe it would have been better if he had said "The Lord has only ever directed men be ordained to offices in the priesthood."  That's a statement of fact that can be supported with an appeal to LDS scriptures, where Christ only ever ordained, or directed to be ordained, men.

I thought Emma was ordained in Section 25.

Quote

 D&C 25:7 And thou shalt be ordained under his hand to expound scriptures, and to exhort the church, according as it shall be given thee by my Spirit.

Emma's ordination sounds similar to this:

Quote

D&C 20:46 The priest’s duty is to preach, teach, expound, exhort, and baptize, and administer the sacrament, . . .

Do expounding and exhorting require the priesthood?

[consiglieri]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

True and that I don't have a problem with that because it doesn't impact the discussion.  We have plenty of evidence of 'ganders' being ordained in the the NT and other scriptures.  We don't need to be able to show that every prophet in the OT was ordained to support the doctrine that only males are ordained.    Whether or not Joel was ordained, for example, does not change LDS doctrine on the subject.  Not every man was ordained, nor does a prophet HAVE to be ordained.

However, having evidence of any 'geese' being ordained does impact the discussion.  Whether or not Deborah was ordained is significant.

Speaking of Joel made me think of his famous prophecy of the latter days; a prophecy picked up and reiterated by Moroni:

Quote

 

Joel 2:28 ¶And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

 

Does this have any bearing on the subject, do you think?

[smac97]

24 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

How can one use a hammer without holding it?

How can a woman use the priesthood without holding it?

Again:  Reasonable discourse is not in the cards, I think, so I will abstain from attempting such with you.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Zakuska]

D&C 84:18 ("And the Lord confirmed a priesthood also upon Aaron and his seed, throughout all their generations..."),

Aarons "seed" is MALE only?

Who knew!

Edited December 21, 2015 by Zakuska