consiglieri Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 21 hours ago, Storm Rider said: A prophet, as in the one that holds the keys to the priesthood, must necessarily hold the priesthood in order to hold the keys. That seems both obvious and rational. A prophet, as in one who receives revelation of Jesus Christ or even one who sees the future, is simply that and not one that holds the priesthood per se. Isn't it strange that in the LDS Church today, the "Big P" Prophet is considered to hold all priesthood keys, but can't even see into the future like a "Little P" prophet?
consiglieri Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 21 hours ago, Gray said: CFR, please You will get no references for this, Gray. Cold Steel is just repeating an old rumor about how Church leaders really are receiving tons of revelations just like old-time prophets, only they are squirrelling them all away in a vault somewhere because they are so special or something. The fact of the matter is that there is no revelation in the LDS Church at top levels today, and there hasn't been for at least a century.
consiglieri Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 21 hours ago, Avatar4321 said: because his office isn't prophet. That's just what we call him. His office is president of the high priesthood. Kind of obvious why you need the priesthood for that. Maybe we should stop calling him prophet, then.
consiglieri Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 21 hours ago, smac97 said: "The prophet" meaning the Presiding High Priest? Are you familiar with D&C 107:22 ("Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.")? Where are you getting the idea that the Presiding High Priest "doesn't require priesthood"? Surely you aren't playing wordgames? You wouldn't be conflating the concept of "prophet" (which anyone can be who has a testimony of Jesus) with "the prophet" or "the Prophet" (meaning the Presiding High Priest, the President of the Church, etc.)? Thanks, -Smac Oh, for the days when "the Prophet" used to mean Joseph Smith and not the current president of the church.
consiglieri Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 21 hours ago, smac97 said: Well, not quite: Prophet The work of a Hebrew prophet was to act as God’s messenger and make known God’s will. The message was usually prefaced with the words “Thus saith Jehovah.” He taught men about God’s character, showing the full meaning of His dealings with Israel in the past. It was therefore part of the prophetic office to preserve and edit the records of the nation’s history; and such historical books as Joshua, Judges, 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings were known by the Jews as the former Prophets. It was also the prophet’s duty to denounce sin and foretell its punishment and to redress, so far as he could, both public and private wrongs. He was to be, above all, a preacher of righteousness. When the people had fallen away from a true faith in Jehovah, the prophets had to try to restore that faith and remove false views about the character of God and the nature of the divine requirement. In certain cases prophets predicted future events, such as the very important prophecies announcing the coming of Messiah’s kingdom; but as a rule a prophet was a forthteller rather than a foreteller. In a general sense a prophet is anyone who has a testimony of Jesus Christ by the Holy Ghost, as in Num. 11:25–29; Rev. 19:10. Thanks, -Smac So you're citing to an article written by men in a patriarchal church in order to prove what is and isn't a prophet?
Avatar4321 Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 9 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Isn't it strange that in the LDS Church today, the "Big P" Prophet is considered to hold all priesthood keys, but can't even see into the future like a "Little P" prophet? who exactly is making that claim other than you? the spirit of prophecy isn't about seeing the future. Though the Lord will reveal from time to time to anyone with the spirit of prophecy what will happen. what you're describing is the role of a seer.
consiglieri Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 1 minute ago, Avatar4321 said: who exactly is making that claim other than you? the spirit of prophecy isn't about seeing the future. Though the Lord will reveal from time to time to anyone with the spirit of prophecy what will happen. what you're describing is the role of a seer. You are incorrect. The role of a prophet is to prophecy. That means to predict the future. The LDS Church has gone to great lengths to redefine a "prophet" as something other than one who foretells the future. For obvious reasons, I think.
Avatar4321 Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 27 minutes ago, consiglieri said: You will get no references for this, Gray. Cold Steel is just repeating an old rumor about how Church leaders really are receiving tons of revelations just like old-time prophets, only they are squirrelling them all away in a vault somewhere because they are so special or something. The fact of the matter is that there is no revelation in the LDS Church at top levels today, and there hasn't been for at least a century. he already provided references. Why do you feel the need to pretend otherwise? there is revelation in all areas of the Church. I'm sorry you've given yourself up to this critical spirit that you can't see it. But I have seen it and experienced it myself. And I know God leads the Church through revelation. Come back and be humble. Believe in Christ Nd Hr will reveal all things line upon line and precept upon precept
Avatar4321 Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 33 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Maybe we should stop calling him prophet, then. why? He is one. And the head prophet for the church
consiglieri Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 4 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: why? He is one. CFR
Avatar4321 Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 57 minutes ago, consiglieri said: So you're citing to an article written by men in a patriarchal church in order to prove what is and isn't a prophet? Who exactly should we be citing to discuss the spirit of prophesy in the church? Muslims? Buddhists?
Avatar4321 Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 21 minutes ago, consiglieri said: CFR From President Monson during last conference, the Spirit of prophecy: Quote My brothers and sisters, our opportunities to shine surround us each day, in whatever circumstance we find ourselves. As we follow the example of the Savior, ours will be the opportunity to be a light in the lives of others, whether they be our own family members and friends, our co-workers, mere acquaintances, or total strangers. To each of you, I say that you are a son or daughter of our Heavenly Father. You have come from His presence to live on this earth for a season, to reflect the Savior’s love and teachings, and to bravely let your light shine for all to see. When that season on earth has ended, if you have done your part, yours will be the glorious blessing of returning to live with Him forever. How reassuring are the Savior’s words: “I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”9 Of Him I testify. He is our Savior and Redeemer, our Advocate with the Father. He is our Exemplar and our strength. He is “the light which shineth in darkness.”10 That each of us within the sound of my voice may pledge to follow Him, thus becoming a shining light to the world, is my prayer in His holy name, even Jesus Christ the Lord, amen. I'm sadly not optimistic that you will recognize it as such, but I know God can do miracles. 1
Avatar4321 Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 55 minutes ago, consiglieri said: You are incorrect. The role of a prophet is to prophecy. That means to predict the future. The LDS Church has gone to great lengths to redefine a "prophet" as something other than one who foretells the future. For obvious reasons, I think. No. The role of a prophet is to testify of Christ. That is there Spirit of prophesy. That is what prophesying is. A seer is greater than a prophet.
consiglieri Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 36 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: he already provided references. Why do you feel the need to pretend otherwise? there is revelation in all areas of the Church. I'm sorry you've given yourself up to this critical spirit that you can't see it. But I have seen it and experienced it myself. And I know God leads the Church through revelation. Come back and be humble. Believe in Christ Nd Hr will reveal all things line upon line and precept upon precept If you know God leads his Church through revelation, it shouldn't be too much trouble to point to just one?
smac97 Posted December 19, 2015 Author Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) 1 hour ago, consiglieri said: And yet Elder Oaks has now made it clear that women do, in fact, hold the priesthood. Well, no. "The Lord has directed that only men will be ordained to offices in the priesthood. But, as various Church leaders have emphasized, men are not 'the priesthood.' Men hold the priesthood, with a sacred duty to use it for the blessing of all of the children of God." --Elder Dallin H. Oaks. "But even though these presiding authorities hold and exercise all of the keys delegated to men in this dispensation, they are not free to alter the divinely decreed pattern that only men will hold offices in the priesthood." --Elder Dallin H. Oaks "With the exception of the sacred work that sisters do in the temple under the keys held by the temple president, which I will describe hereafter, only one who holds a priesthood office can officiate in a priesthood ordinance." --Elder Dallin H. Oaks "I come now to the subject of priesthood authority. I begin with the three principles just discussed: (1) priesthood is the power of God delegated to man to act for the salvation of the human family, (2) priesthood authority is governed by priesthood holders who hold priesthood keys, and (3) since the scriptures state that 'all other authorities [and] offices in the church are appendages to this [Melchizedek] priesthood' (D&C 107:5), all that is done under the direction of those priesthood keys is done with priesthood authority. How does this apply to women? In an address to the Relief Society, President Joseph Fielding Smith, then President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, said this: 'While the sisters have not been given the Priesthood, it has not been conferred upon them, that does not mean that the Lord has not given unto them authority. … A person may have authority given to him, or a sister to her, to do certain things in the Church that are binding and absolutely necessary for our salvation, such as the work that our sisters do in the House of the Lord. They have authority given unto them to do some great and wonderful things, sacred unto the Lord, and binding just as thoroughly as are the blessings that are given by the men who hold the Priesthood.'" --Elder Dallin H. Oaks And here's one more quote that may be appropriately cautionary: "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." --2 Peter 3:16 Thanks, -Smac Edited December 19, 2015 by smac97 1
smac97 Posted December 19, 2015 Author Posted December 19, 2015 1 hour ago, consiglieri said: You will get no references for this, Gray. Cold Steel is just repeating an old rumor about how Church leaders really are receiving tons of revelations just like old-time prophets, only they are squirrelling them all away in a vault somewhere because they are so special or something. The fact of the matter is that there is no revelation in the LDS Church at top levels today, and there hasn't been for at least a century. How do you propose to substantiate this "fact"? Thanks, -Smac 2
smac97 Posted December 19, 2015 Author Posted December 19, 2015 1 hour ago, consiglieri said: Oh, for the days when "the Prophet" used to mean Joseph Smith and not the current president of the church. Oh, for the days when we could have substantive discourse about serious and interesting topics, instead of unsubstantiated, because-I-say-so assertions and drive-by potshots such as is seen in most of your posts. Thanks, -Smac 3
smac97 Posted December 19, 2015 Author Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) 1 hour ago, consiglieri said: So you're citing to an article written by men in a patriarchal church in order to prove what is and isn't a prophet? No. I am citing an article to present the LDS position on different contextual usages of the word "prophet". But then, you knew that. And instead of meaningful discourse, we're getting haggling, about-as-thoughtful-as-a-joke-from-a-drunk-frat-boy one-liners. Yawn. Thanks, -Smac Edited December 19, 2015 by smac97 1
consiglieri Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 19 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: From President Monson during last conference, the Spirit of prophecy: I'm sadly not optimistic that you will recognize it as such, but I know God can do miracles. Well, he is just repeating the same old pablum and quoting from scripture to support it. The spirit of prophecy should be made of sterner stuff.
consiglieri Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 4 minutes ago, smac97 said: How do you propose to substantiate this "fact"? Thanks, -Smac How do you propose to dispute it? Thanks, -Consiglieri
consiglieri Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 7 minutes ago, smac97 said: Well, no. "The Lord has directed that only men will be ordained to offices in the priesthood. But, as various Church leaders have emphasized, men are not 'the priesthood.' Men hold the priesthood, with a sacred duty to use it for the blessing of all of the children of God." --Elder Dallin H. Oaks. "But even though these presiding authorities hold and exercise all of the keys delegated to men in this dispensation, they are not free to alter the divinely decreed pattern that only men will hold offices in the priesthood." --Elder Dallin H. Oaks "With the exception of the sacred work that sisters do in the temple under the keys held by the temple president, which I will describe hereafter, only one who holds a priesthood office can officiate in a priesthood ordinance." --Elder Dallin H. Oaks "I come now to the subject of priesthood authority. I begin with the three principles just discussed: (1) priesthood is the power of God delegated to man to act for the salvation of the human family, (2) priesthood authority is governed by priesthood holders who hold priesthood keys, and (3) since the scriptures state that 'all other authorities [and] offices in the church are appendages to this [Melchizedek] priesthood' (D&C 107:5), all that is done under the direction of those priesthood keys is done with priesthood authority. How does this apply to women? In an address to the Relief Society, President Joseph Fielding Smith, then President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, said this: 'While the sisters have not been given the Priesthood, it has not been conferred upon them, that does not mean that the Lord has not given unto them authority. … A person may have authority given to him, or a sister to her, to do certain things in the Church that are binding and absolutely necessary for our salvation, such as the work that our sisters do in the House of the Lord. They have authority given unto them to do some great and wonderful things, sacred unto the Lord, and binding just as thoroughly as are the blessings that are given by the men who hold the Priesthood.'" --Elder Dallin H. Oaks And here's one more quote that may be appropriately cautionary: "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." --2 Peter 3:16 Thanks, -Smac Yes, Elder Oaks is cutting things very fine here. And finest of all is when he says, "The Lord has directed that only men will be ordained to offices in the priesthood." That is flat-out wrong. Elder Oaks provided no reference for this critical statement. And that is because there is no direction from the Lord to that effect.
Popular Post smac97 Posted December 19, 2015 Author Popular Post Posted December 19, 2015 1 hour ago, consiglieri said: You are incorrect. The role of a prophet is to prophecy. That means to predict the future. The LDS Church has gone to great lengths to redefine a "prophet" as something other than one who foretells the future. For obvious reasons, I think. First, the verb is "prophesy" ("prophecy" is a noun). Second, the verb "prophesy" encompasses definitions of both "to foretell or predict" and "to speak as a mediator between God and humankind or in God's stead." Third, the LDS Church has not re-defined the word "prophet" to exclude predictions of the future: "A person who has been called by and speaks for God. As a messenger of God, a prophet receives commandments, prophecies, and revelations from God. His responsibility is to make known God’s will and true character to mankind and to show the meaning of his dealings with them. A prophet denounces sin and foretells its consequences. He is a preacher of righteousness. On occasion, prophets may be inspired to foretell the future for the benefit of mankind. His primary responsibility, however, is to bear witness of Christ." See also Mosiah 8:16 (“A seer is a revelator and a prophet also”). Fourth, the LDS Church has presented its refined understanding of the term "prophet" (emphases added): Quote Elder John A. Widtsoe of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained the meaning of the title “prophet, seer, and revelator”: “The three separate titles in the general title have much the same meaning in popular usage, yet there are differences sufficiently important to justify their use. “A prophet is a teacher. That is the essential meaning of the word. He teaches the body of truth, the gospel, revealed by the Lord to man; and under inspiration explains it to the understanding of the people. He is an expounder of truth. Moreover, he shows that the way to human happiness is through obedience to God’s law. He calls to repentance those who wander away from the truth. He becomes a warrior for the consummation of the Lord’s purposes with respect to the human family. The purpose of his life is to uphold the Lord’s plan of salvation. All this he does by close communion with the Lord, until he is ‘full of power by the spirit of the Lord.’ (Micah 3:8; see also D. & C. 20:26; 34:10; 43:16) … “In the course of time the word ‘prophet’ has come to mean, perhaps chiefly, a man who receives revelations, and directions from the Lord. The principal business of a prophet has mistakenly been thought to foretell coming events, to utter prophecies, which is only one of the several prophetic functions. “In the sense that a prophet is a man who receives revelations from the Lord, the titles ‘seer and revelator’ merely amplify the larger and inclusive meaning of the title ‘prophet.’ Clearly, however, there is much wisdom in the specific statement of the functions of the prophet as seer and revelator, as is done in the conferences of the Church. “A prophet also receives revelations from the Lord. These may be explanations of truths already received, or new truths not formerly possessed by man. Such revelations are always confined to the official position held. The lower will not receive revelations for the higher office. “A seer is one who sees with spiritual eyes. He perceives the meaning of that which seems obscure to others; therefore he is an interpreter and clarifier of eternal truth. He foresees the future from the past and the present. This he does by the power of the Lord operating through him directly, or indirectly with the aid of divine instruments such as the Urim and Thummim. In short, he is one who sees, who walks in the Lord’s light with open eyes. (Book of Mormon, Mosiah 8:15–17) “A revelator makes known, with the Lord’s help, something before unknown. It may be new or forgotten truth, or a new or forgotten application of known truth to man’s need. Always, the revelator deals with truth, certain truth (D. & C. 100:11) and always it comes with the divine stamp of approval. Revelation may be received in various ways, but it always presupposes that the revelator has so lived and conducted himself as to be in tune or harmony with the divine spirit of revelation, the spirit of truth, and therefore capable of receiving divine messages. “In summary: A prophet is a teacher of known truth; a seer is a perceiver of hidden truth; a revelator is a bearer of new truth. In the widest sense, the one most commonly used, the title, prophet, includes the other titles and makes of the prophet, a teacher, perceiver, and bearer of truth” (Evidences and Reconciliations, arr. G. Homer Durham, 3 vols. in 1 [1960], 257–58; emphasis added). Thanks, -Smac 5
smac97 Posted December 19, 2015 Author Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: From President Monson during last conference, the Spirit of prophecy: I'm sadly not optimistic that you will recognize it as such, but I know God can do miracles. And here's a quote from Elder Eyring from the last General Conference: "I bear you my testimony that God the Father lives, that the resurrected Jesus Christ leads His Church, that President Thomas S. Monson holds all the keys of the priesthood, and that revelation through the Holy Ghost guides and sustains The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its humble members." I think perusing the April and November issues of the Ensign would yield many more such testimonies. So we can go with either Consiglier's unsubstantiated, because-I-say-so denial that revelation is being received, or we can listen to what the Brethren are saying, and then we can pray and discern which source is telling the truth. Thanks, -Smac Edited December 19, 2015 by smac97 2
smac97 Posted December 19, 2015 Author Posted December 19, 2015 46 minutes ago, consiglieri said: If you know God leads his Church through revelation, it shouldn't be too much trouble to point to just one? If this was a good faith discussion of this topic, I would. But it ain't, so I won't. Thanks, -Smac
smac97 Posted December 19, 2015 Author Posted December 19, 2015 29 minutes ago, consiglieri said: How do you propose to dispute it? Thanks, -Consiglieri It is your assertion to prove, at least in some prima facie way. So again, how do you propose to substantiate as "fact" that "there is no revelation in the LDS Church at top levels today"? If you have argument, evidence, reasoning, etc., let's see it. I have no interest in discussing your unsubstantiated say-so. Thanks, -Smac 1
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