A Review of Recent Trends Re: Ordination of Women in LDS Church

Zakuska · December 22, 2015

42 minutes ago, smac97 said:

> Yep. And I argued else where that Joseph Smith gave Emma an "office" in the Female Priesthood Matriarchy of "elect Lady", which is equivalent to an Elder (D&C 25) "ordained" her to it and set her apart as the Relief Society President in that Quorum of Sisters.

=="Female Priesthood Matriarchy"? CFR.

=="Quorum of Sisters"? CFR.

=="Equivalent to an Elder"? CFR.

=="Elect lady" is a priesthood "office"? CFR.

==Where are you getting this stuff?

-Smac

From the Scriptures for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Quote

In the last anxious hours before the Prophet Joseph Smith left for Carthage in June 1844, his wife Emma asked for a blessing. Unable to grant her wish at the time, Joseph instructed her to write out “the desires of her heart” and he would confirm the blessing by his signature upon his return. Among the desires she expressed in her short, self-inscribed blessing was her fervent wish “to honor and respect my husband as my head, ever to live in his confidence and by acting in unison with him retain the place which God has given me by his side.”[1]

What unspoken thoughts moved Emma Smith to write those words? Could she have been affirming her belief that God had called her to be the wife and companion of a latter-day prophet? Might she have been thinking of the ordinances she had received with him in 1843, which promised her exaltation and a place by his side eternally? Or, after more than a year of anguishing over the principle of plural marriage, was Emma finally acknowledging that only by acting in concert with Joseph, even on this divisive issue, could she fulfill the revelation given to her fourteen years earlier through her prophet-husband?

Emma’s self-written 1844 blessing, of which the quoted passage is only a part, in many ways is a companion piece to the revelation she received in 1830, which was codified as Doctrine and Covenants 25. Each of these two spiritual documents is better understood in relation to the other. The enduring influence of the 1830 revelation to Emma is evident in the 1844 blessing, which carries strong echoes of the Lord’s words to her fourteen years earlier. The later blessing illuminates not only the importance and reality of the 1830 revelation in Emma’s life but also the timeless and universal quality of its content.

Doctrine and Covenants 25 has long been read primarily as a revelation commissioning a hymnbook for the newly organized Church. In recent years more attention has been given to the revelation’s injunction to Emma “to expound doctrine and exhort the church” and to define Emma’s role as an “elect lady.”[2] Less examined have been its points of universal application and its correlation with the 1844 blessing, which this paper will address.

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/sperry-symposium-classics-doctrine-and-covenants/10-elect-lady-revelation-dc-25-its

If you notice smac97.

The foot note for "ELECT LADY" in D&C 25 Goes to the Bible in which an "Elder" of the Church writes a Letter to a possible wife (or at least a sister in the ward) who is referred to as an "Elect Lady".

2 John 1

1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

Did you notice that the "Elect Lady" who this "Elder" was writing to had an "Elect Sister" who had children as well and said hello to her?

13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

In the Original D&C "elect lady" was capitalized so it denoted an "OFFICE" or "TITLE" in the Church, latter editors changed it so its no longer capitalized..

Quote

A second, more problematic commission of the Lord to Emma in the revelation was “to expound scriptures, and to exhort the Church, according as it shall be given thee by my Spirit”(verse 7). With only a few exceptions, no religious denominations at that time gave public platforms in mixed congregations to women. Tradition and contemporary ideals of feminine propriety were powerful agents in defining a woman’s appropriate public behavior, and preaching in public was not a feminine occupation in the nineteenth century.[20]These social strictures, however, did not affect the small, informal Church meetings, characteristic of Latter-day Saint worship from its beginnings. In Nauvoo, women regularly addressed the mixed Church gatherings in one another’s homes for a Sunday or weeknight prayer, blessing, or cottage meeting. Along with the men, they bore testimony, expounded doctrine, and read scriptures to the assembled members. They prophesied, spoke in tongues, and blessed one another.[21] Emma often accompanied Joseph to such meetings.[22]Few could have been more conversant with Mormon doctrine than Emma Smith or had more incentive to expound its truths.

The patriarchal blessings of other women during this period admonished them, also, to instruct one another, mentor the young in gospel principles, and “encourage and strengthen” others in the faith.[23] One so blessed was Phoebe Woodruff before she left on a mission to England with her husband, Wilford. Brigham Young promised her that she would be “looked up to as A mother in Israel for council and for Instruction.” He granted her “power & wisdom to teach the truth to thy friends and thy se[x],” and guaranteed that she would “not be at a loss for Ideas & words in [her] teaching.”[24]

W\hy is a woman Going on a Mission without the Priesthood?

Elder L Tom Perry about the "ELECT LADY":

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1995/04/an-elect-lady?lang=eng

Is not the wife of a Temple President known as the "Temple Matriarch"? Why is there a Woman Priesthood leader in the Temple known by this TItle if she has no Priesthood to work at the veil or perform any of the ordinanances?

Edited December 22, 2015 by Zakuska

Calm · December 22, 2015

22 hours ago, Zakuska said:

Apostle Orson Hyde:

“The Priesthood holds the power and all have been ordained or ought to be. It is necessary that it should rest upon all, not upon men only but upon women also that ye may be all one. …”
(Bullock Minutes, 15 March 1846, BYU Studies Vol. 31, No. 1 p 61.)

Plagiarism includes work product as well as original thoughts and comments, which includes quotes found by others, especially if what one is doing is just copying a collection of quotes someone else made the effort to collect. The mods can probably tell you how strict they intend to be.

smac97 · December 22, 2015

Quote

=="Female Priesthood Matriarchy"? CFR.

=="Quorum of Sisters"? CFR.

=="Equivalent to an Elder"? CFR.

=="Elect lady" is a priesthood "office"? CFR.

> The Scriptures for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

==I have never seen any of these phrases or concepts in scripture, or in the Church's publications or from a General Authority.

==Your suggestion that the past and present leaders of the Church lack "eyes to see and ears to hear", but that you do, is . . . illuminating.

==I will refrain from further comment. I will leave to you the last word if you like.

Thanks,

-Smac

Zakuska · December 22, 2015

24 minutes ago, smac97 said:

> The Scriptures for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

==I have never seen any of these phrases or concepts in scripture, or in the Church's publications or from a General Authority.

==Your suggestion that the past and present leaders of the Church lack "eyes to see and ears to hear", but that you do, is . . . illuminating.

==I will refrain from further comment. I will leave to you the last word if you like.

Thanks,

-Smac

Here's a History lesson for you then. "Matriachs" in the Church.

https://history.lds.org/media/1007-matriarch

Emma as an "Elect Lady"

https://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-emma-smith?lang=eng

Its also intresting to note that the Releif Society was organized in a Masoic Meeting Hall, the exacvt Hall where Joseph Was Raised to the office of Master Mason the night before. And that the Masons have an "Office" for women in their order known as "Elect Lady".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Eastern_Star

Edited December 22, 2015 by Zakuska

Zakuska · December 22, 2015

29 minutes ago, Calm said:

Plagiarism includes work product as well as original thoughts and comments, which includes quotes found by others, especially if what one is doing is just copying a collection of quotes someone else made the effort to collect. The mods can probably tell you how strict they intend to be.

Smac already primaryily linked to the quote you are complaining about Calm in the very next post. :rolleyes:

http://byustudies.byu.edu/content/journal-thomas-bullock

Edited December 22, 2015 by Zakuska
Changed to correct Link

smac97 · December 22, 2015

36 minutes ago, Zakuska said:

Here's a History lesson for you then. "Matriachs" in the Church.

https://history.lds.org/media/1007-matriarch

Emma as an "Elect Lady"

https://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-emma-smith?lang=eng

Again, you are presenting concepts that I have never seen in the scriptures, or in the Church's materials, or in statements from General Authorities. And you ascribe the absence of these concepts to the past and current General Authorities (and my) not having "eyes to see and ears to hear" revealed truths which, according to you, are in the scriptures. Such usurpation and false judgment is not a healthy thing.

Your links provide no information about "Female Priesthood Matriarchy" (capitalized by you, but also apparently created out of whole cloth by you), or "Quorum of Sisters" (also capitalized and fabricated by you, it seems), or "elect lady" being a priesthood "office" that is "equivalent to an elder" (also your creation). None.

-Smac

P.S. I guess I didn't give you the last word after all.

Edited December 22, 2015 by smac97

Zakuska · December 22, 2015

18 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Again, you are presenting concepts that I have never seen in the scriptures, or in the Church's materials, or in statements from General Authorities. And you ascribe the absence of these concepts to the past and current General Authorities (and my) not having "eyes to see and ears to hear" what, according to you, is in the scriptures. Such usurpation and false judgment is not a healthy thing.

Your links provide no information about "Female Priesthood Matriarchy" (capitalized by you, but also apparently created out of whole cloth by you), or "Quorum of Sisters" (also capitalized and fabricated by you, it seems), or "elect lady" being a priesthood "office" that is "equivalent to an elder" (also your creation). None.

-Smac

P.S. I guess I didn't give you the last word after all.

What is the definition of "Quorum" Smac?

Quote

Quorum

the minimum number of members of an assembly or society that must be present at any of its meetings to make the proceedings of that meeting valid.

The Relief Society IS a Quorum of Sisters when it has a President, and 2 Counselors.

And the reason you've never heard it before is because we are just learning about this stuff now that the Joseph Smith Papers are bringing their true meanings to life.

'ELECT LADY' was the Title Joseph Gave Sisters in the Relief Society... originally. And was lost when he was killed.

The Church in Salt Lake is having to come to grips with REAL history.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Zakuska

Storm Rider · December 22, 2015

It never fails to amuse me when I see so much swallowing of camels and choking on gnats, but when men want to swallow that camel they will enlarge their mouth to the point that it can tumble down our gullet.

It is simple, if you want to believe that Jesus is the Christ you will find faith to believe and to become his disciple. On the other hand, you do not wish to believe you will find as much to choke on and reject his message as you wish.

More to the point, if you want to be blown about by every wind of doctrine of today's amoral society you can. It is not hard to do, just close your eyes and ears, put those ruby slippers on and click your hills three times and viola; you are blown in circles to the point that you don't know what to believe and you sure won't be in Kansas any longer.

Of course, the other choice is not easy. You have to submit to the will of God - accept his standards as your own and strive to be like him. You will find many answers and you will almost always require faith. Few will have the burning bush or a visitation from God commanding them to act. The vast majority of us will be like the poor woman that no one notices who must have faith. Too few of us will throw in all we have; our two mites will stay in our pockets. However, Christ looks for the ones that willingly give all they have. They are the ones who know their God and embrace him and are embraced by the God of the universe.

stemelbow · December 22, 2015

9 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

It never fails to amuse me when I see so much swallowing of camels and choking on gnats, but when men want to swallow that camel they will enlarge their mouth to the point that it can tumble down our gullet.

It is simple, if you want to believe that Jesus is the Christ you will find faith to believe and to become his disciple. On the other hand, you do not wish to believe you will find as much to choke on and reject his message as you wish.

More to the point, if you want to be blown about by every wind of doctrine of today's amoral society you can. It is not hard to do, just close your eyes and ears, put those ruby slippers on and click your hills three times and viola; you are blown in circles to the point that you don't know what to believe and you sure won't be in Kansas any longer.

Of course, the other choice is not easy. You have to submit to the will of God - accept his standards as your own and strive to be like him. You will find many answers and you will almost always require faith. Few will have the burning bush or a visitation from God commanding them to act. The vast majority of us will be like the poor woman that no one notices who must have faith. Too few of us will throw in all we have; our two mites will stay in our pockets. However, Christ looks for the ones that willingly give all they have. They are the ones who know their God and embrace him and are embraced by the God of the universe.

It probably is easier to just accept every said hook, line and sinker. But with that comes contradiction. I suppose if you are willing to jump along with the latest that's great. But it's not easy when you're one whose prone to think about what has been said compared to what is said.

smac97 · December 22, 2015

40 minutes ago, Zakuska said:

What is the definition of "Quorum" Smac?

The Relief Society IS a Quorum of Sisters when it has a President, and 2 Counselors.

And the reason you've never heard it before is because we are just learning about this stuff now that the Joseph Smith Papers are bringing their true meanings to life.

'ELECT LADY' was the Title Joseph Gave Sisters in the Relief Society... originally. And was lost when he was killed.

The Church in Salt Lake is having to come to grips with REAL history.

Again, where are you getting these phrases? And do your sources capitalize them? Or is that your own embellishment? Or are you fabricating these phrases out of whole cloth?

I found zero results for "Quorum of Sisters" on LDS.org and josephsmithpapers.org, and only one reference on Google (from an article in an 1894 magazine having nothing to do with the Church). I also found zero references for "Female Priesthood Matriarchy" on LDS.org, josephsmithpapers.org and Google.

Also, is your reference to the "The Church in Salt Lake" intended to be disparaging? It comes across that way.

Thanks,

-Smac

Storm Rider · December 22, 2015

52 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It probably is easier to just accept every said hook, line and sinker. But with that comes contradiction. I suppose if you are willing to jump along with the latest that's great. But it's not easy when you're one whose prone to think about what has been said compared to what is said.

Geez, there is a tall order of self-satisfied, smug, arrogance in that type of summation. Suffice it to say that you are not alone in thought, contemplation, or even questioning. The difference is what one does with questions. You seem to more often than not stand from afar, and belittle those mind-numbingly, foolish believers that have the temerity to choose faith first. What is so wrong with choosing faith? It does not stop a question or a contemplation of doctrine, but it does put parameters around those questions.

Reason and faith remain firm, eternal companions used to infuse the disciple of Christ to push to the end of the race. To enter life's race while forfeiting one of two oars only results in going around in circles. There is no wisdom in that strategy.

Yeah, not so much on the contradiction either. Absolutely, that those without faith are striving to look through a pitch black glass and then scream at everyone because they cannot see and therefore (here is the error) that no one else can see either. Your glass is dark because you have abdicated your faith in favor of what you think is superior - your own knowledge.

I still think John Paul II encyclical, "Fides et Ratio" is worth reading. He was a wonderful scholar and philosopher and covers the subject well - Faith and Reason.

stemelbow · December 22, 2015

2 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Geez, there is a tall order of self-satisfied, smug, arrogance in that type of summation. Suffice it to say that you are not alone in thought, contemplation, or even questioning. The difference is what one does with questions. You seem to more often than not stand from afar, and belittle those mind-numbingly, foolish believers that have the temerity to choose faith first. What is so wrong with choosing faith? It does not stop a question or a contemplation of doctrine, but it does put parameters around those questions.

Reason and faith remain firm, eternal companions used to infuse the disciple of Christ to push to the end of the race. To enter life's race while forfeiting one of two oars only results in going around in circles. There is no wisdom in that strategy.

Yeah, not so much on the contradiction either. Absolutely, that those without faith are striving to look through a pitch black glass and then scream at everyone because they cannot see and therefore (here is the error) that no one else can see either. Your glass is dark because you have abdicated your faith in favor of what you think is superior - your own knowledge.

I still think John Paul II encyclical, "Fides et Ratio" is worth reading. He was a wonderful scholar and philosopher and covers the subject well - Faith and Reason.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I suggested there are two extremes here and though some fall in the category of the extremes some might be somewhere in the middle. I don't think it wise to attribute being "faithful" to whether or not you personally accept a certain proposition made by a Church leader. I think it might be easier to view things that way, but I don't think it wise nor accurate, per se.

In sum, I'm not very smart at all. The glass is dark for us all. I don't know anyone who views everything through a clear glass.

Gray · December 22, 2015

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

"Academic study of the Bible" is all over the map. There are tons of varying and contradictory ways to interpret and understand the Bible. One of those ways is the LDS paradigm. So I will respectfully disagree that the LDS paradigm stands outside ("does not speak to") the "historical context or academic study of the Bible".

I also disagree that discussions of the D&C are outside the discussion "of what ancient Israelites believed about priesthood". D&C 2:1 speaks of Elijah. D&C 84:18 speaks of Aaron and his descendants. D&C 84:25-26 speaks of Moses and the loss of the priesthood from ancient Israel. D&C 84:6-17 speaks of Moses' priesthood line of authority. These verses are rife with "historical context". I will grant that the LDS perspective is a matter of faith, but then so are many, many other perspectives on the Bible. I will also grant that LDS perspectives on Elijah, Aaron, Moses, and the priesthood are more or less unique, but that does not take them out of the realm of "context" or "academic study" (else why would Margaret Barker's work be so popular amongst us? And see also here).

Thanks,

-Smac

As the D&C is a modern work, it represents ideas about priesthood in the church during the time it was written. It is a theological rather than an academic work. D&C doesn't use any of the historian's tools to get at the beliefs and practices of the ancient Israelites.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Gray

Zakuska · December 22, 2015

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Again, where are you getting these phrases? And do your sources capitalize them? Or is that your own embellishment? Or are you fabricating these phrases out of whole cloth?

I found zero results for "Quorum of Sisters" on LDS.org and josephsmithpapers.org, and only one reference on Google (from an article in an 1894 magazine having nothing to do with the Church). I also found zero references for "Female Priesthood Matriarchy" on LDS.org, josephsmithpapers.org and Google.

Also, is your reference to the "The Church in Salt Lake" intended to be disparaging? It comes across that way.

Thanks,

-Smac

The title "Elect Lady" comes straight out of the Scriptures smac97 And DIRECTLY from Joseph Smith to Emma.

D&C 25

3 A Revelation I give unto you concerning my will Behold thy sins are for given thee & thou art an Elect Lady2

See 2 John 1:1; see also Relief Society Minute Book, 17 Mar. 1842. In 1842, JS commented on the meaning of “Elect Lady,” explaining that “Elect meant to be Elected to a certain work &c, & that the revelation was then fulfilled by Sister Emma’s Election to the Presidency of the Society.” (JS, Journal, 17 Mar. 1842, underlining in original.)

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/revelation-july-1830-c-dc-25

Our current Quads don't capitalize the title "elect lady" But the original facsimiles of the D&C 25 do.

https://zomarah.wordpress.com/2013/03/14/the-history-and-purpose-of-the-relief-society/

Quote

But wait, isn’t Masonry only for men? It’s not. In about 1740 a branch of Masonry was developed in France. It was called ” Maçonnerie d’Adoption” or “Adopted Masonry.” It was developed to allow women to participate in a female branch of Masonry. Its is apparent that the highest rank in Adoptive Masonry is that of “Elect Lady.” In July 1830 a revelation was given, which became Section 25 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Emma is referred to by this title. In our modern editions of the scriptures it is written thus:

3 Behold, thy sins are forgiven thee, and thou art an elect lady, whom I have called.

It could just be a coincidence. Since “elect lady” is not capitalized it is probably not referring to a title. However, I looked up the original revelation in my Facsimile Edition. In the original revelation it is written this way:

Behold thy sins are for given thee & thou art an Elect Lady whom I have called

Elect Lady is capitalized in the original revelation. Being capitalized it is far more likely referring to a title and calling. In addition to Emma Smith being referred to as an Elect Lady, some Relief Society Presidents after her were referred to as Elect Lady.

Its also an female office in Free Masonry. Order of the Eastern Star.

Quote

The emblem of the Order is a five-pointed star with the white ray of the star pointing downwards towards the manger. In the Chapter room, the downward-pointing white ray points to the West. The character-building lessons taught in the Order are stories inspired by Biblical figures:

Adah (Jephthah's daughter, from the Book of Judges)

Ruth, the widow from the Book of Ruth

Esther, the wife from the Book of Esther

Martha, sister of Mary and Lazarus, from the Gospel of John

Electa (the "elect lady" from II John), the mother

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Eastern_Star

So to answer your snide accusation No I'm not "making it up whole cloth"

Edited December 22, 2015 by Zakuska

smac97 · December 22, 2015

5 minutes ago, Gray said:

As the D&C is a modern work, it represents ideas about priesthood in the church during the time it was written. It is a theological rather than an academic work. D&C doesn't use any of the historian's tools to get at the beliefs and practices of the ancient Israelites.

And if the D&C were a compilation of secular/academic writings, or even just the meandering philosophical musings of Joseph Smith, I would agree with your underlying point. But it's not, so I don't. The Doctrine & Covenants purports to be writings borne of revelation from God. So when God gave information to Joseph Smith about Moses' priesthood pedigree, or about the sons of Aaron, etc., he (Joseph Smith) was relying on a source that it in a position to correctly understand ancient Israelitish beliefs about the priesthood.

Now, I will grant you that this approach to the Doctrine & Covenants only works in the LDS paradigm. But I am quite willing to exercise faith and base my understanding of the Restored Gospel on that paradigm. In other words, the Doctrine & Covenants, although "a modern work", is nevertheless a reliable and authoritative source of information about the priesthood as it existed during OT times.

That said, I am also willing to listen to what academics have to say about priesthood in the Old Testament. For example, Margaret Barker's writings on the subject of have been of interest to me (see, e.g., here and here). And then, of course, there are numerous LDS scholars and theologians who have published on this topic (see, e.g., here, here, here and here).

Thanks,

-Smac

smac97 · December 22, 2015

24 minutes ago, Zakuska said:

The title "Elect Lady" comes straight out of the Scriptures smac97 And DIRECTLY from Joseph Smith to Emma.

D&C 25

3 A Revelation I give unto you concerning my will Behold thy sins are for given thee & thou art an Elect Lady2

See 2 John 1:1; see also Relief Society Minute Book, 17 Mar. 1842. In 1842, JS commented on the meaning of “Elect Lady,” explaining that “Elect meant to be Elected to a certain work &c, & that the revelation was then fulfilled by Sister Emma’s Election to the Presidency of the Society.” (JS, Journal, 17 Mar. 1842, underlining in original.)

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/revelation-july-1830-c-dc-25

Our current Quads don't capitalize the title "elect lady" But the original facsimiles of the D&C do.

https://zomarah.wordpress.com/2013/03/14/the-history-and-purpose-of-the-relief-society/

Its also an female office in Free Masonry. Order of the Eastern Star.

Every reasonably informed Latter-day Saint knows where "elect lady" comes from. But you have claimed that "elect lady" is a priesthood "office" that is "equivalent to an elder". To support this position you rely solely on . . . a footnote (footnotes which, I believe, you have elsewhere disparaged as being unreliable). And even then the allegation is a stretch. You seem to have acknowledged this, and have suggested that the Church needs to get up to speed with information coming out of the Joseph Smith Papers. So where in the Joseph Smith Papers is there evidence supporting your assertion that "elect lady" is a priesthood "office" that is "equivalent to an elder"? Do you have any authorities available to support this claim? Or is it, as I suspect, one of your own making?

And again, where are you getting these phrases ("Quorum of Sisters" and "Female Priesthood Matriarchy")? CFR for both, if you please. And do your sources capitalize them? Or is that your own embellishment? Or are you fabricating these phrases out of whole cloth?

Again, I found zero results for "Quorum of Sisters" on LDS.org and josephsmithpapers.org, and only one reference on Google (from an article in an 1894 magazine having nothing to do with the Church). I also found zero references for "Female Priesthood Matriarchy" on LDS.org, josephsmithpapers.org and Google.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited December 22, 2015 by smac97

Gray · December 22, 2015

6 minutes ago, smac97 said:

And if the D&C were a compilation of secular/academic writings, or even just the meandering philosophical musings of Joseph Smith, I would agree with your underlying point. But it's not, so I don't. The Doctrine & Covenants purports to be writings borne of revelation from God. So when God gave information to Joseph Smith about Moses' priesthood pedigree, or about the sons of Aaron, etc., he (Joseph Smith) was relying on a source that it in a position to correctly understand ancient Israelitish beliefs about the priesthood.

Now, I will grant you that this approach to the Doctrine & Covenants only works in the LDS paradigm. But I am quite willing to exercise faith and base my understanding of the Restored Gospel on that paradigm. In other words, the Doctrine & Covenants, although "a modern work", is nevertheless a reliable and authoritative source of information about the priesthood as it existed during OT times.

That said, I am also willing to listen to what academics have to say about priesthood in the Old Testament. For example, Margaret Barker's writings on the subject of have been of interest to me (see, e.g., here and here). And then, of course, there are numerous LDS scholars and theologians who have published on this topic (see, e.g., here, here, here and here).

Thanks,

-Smac

If revelation could be used to take the place of academic study and inquiry, no one would ever need to cram for a test at BYU. A quick prayer would be all you needed to ace the history final.

But obviously we're operating with very different assumptions about the nature of revelation.

Thanks

stemelbow · December 22, 2015

3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

And if the D&C were a compilation of secular/academic writings, or even just the meandering philosophical musings of Joseph Smith, I would agree with your underlying point. But it's not, so I don't. The Doctrine & Covenants purports to be writings borne of revelation from God. So when God gave information to Joseph Smith about Moses' priesthood pedigree, or about the sons of Aaron, etc., he (Joseph Smith) was relying on a source that it in a position to correctly understand ancient Israelitish beliefs about the priesthood.

Now, I will grant you that this approach to the Doctrine & Covenants only works in the LDS paradigm. But I am quite willing to exercise faith and base my understanding of the Restored Gospel on that paradigm. In other words, the Doctrine & Covenants, although "a modern work", is nevertheless a reliable and authoritative source of information about the priesthood as it existed during OT times.

That said, I am also willing to listen to what academics have to say about priesthood in the Old Testament. For example, Margaret Barker's writings on the subject of have been of interest to me (see, e.g., here and here). And then, of course, there are numerous LDS scholars and theologians who have published on this topic (see, e.g., here, here, here and here).

Thanks,

-Smac

Then it's a question that we'll never be able to answer, I think. We can guess that what God gave to Joseph about Moses was a position that presented a correct understanding of ancient Israelitish beliefs, or it could be that God messages to Joseph and Joseph read into it a position on priesthood that was not necessarily intended. I really think it unwise to view the creating of scripture without the notion that the author and interpreters are subjects influencing, largely it's creation--particularly since we can't really clearly answer that subject.

Either we treat the D&C as a separate work from the OT, which itself is comprised of many various perspectives, and thus not able to speak to the complex issues, cultural and all, of the OT, or we assume as you do--that more recent scripture defines OT writings.

Zakuska · December 22, 2015

43 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Every reasonably informed Latter-day Saint knows where "elect lady" comes from. But you have claimed that "elect lady" is a priesthood "office" that is "equivalent to an elder". To support this position you rely solely on . . . a footnote (footnotes which, I believe, you have elsewhere disparaged as being unreliable). And even then the allegation is a stretch. You seem to have acknowledged this, and have suggested that the Church needs to get up to speed with information coming out of the Joseph Smith Papers. So where in the Joseph Smith Papers is there evidence supporting your assertion that "elect lady" is a priesthood "office" that is "equivalent to an elder"? Do you have any authorities available to support this claim? Or is it, as I suspect, one of your own making?

And again, where are you getting these phrases ("Quorum of Sisters" and "Female Priesthood Matriarchy")? CFR for both, if you please. And do your sources capitalize them? Or is that your own embellishment? Or are you fabricating these phrases out of whole cloth?

Again, I found zero results for "Quorum of Sisters" on LDS.org and josephsmithpapers.org, and only one reference on Google (from an article in an 1894 magazine having nothing to do with the Church). I also found zero references for "Female Priesthood Matriarchy" on LDS.org, josephsmithpapers.org and Google.

Thanks,

-Smac

Why does the "Elect Lady" (aka "General President of the Releif Society") sit on a Priesthood executive council now if her office isn't a "Priesthood Office"?

Quote

SALT LAKE CITY — The LDS Church has added women to three major committees, a historic development that gives women significant, permanent, official voices in church leadership.

Church leaders changed the name of the faith's Priesthood Executive Council to the Priesthood and Family Executive Council and invited the church's Relief Society General President, Sister Linda K. Burton, to sit on the council.

The General Young Women's President, Sister Bonnie L. Oscarson, will join the Missionary Executive Council.

The General Primary President, Sister Rosemary Wixom, will be on the Temple and Family History Executive Council.

Women in the faith's General Relief Society, Young Women and Primary presidencies regularly have contributed to and advised these councils for decades when invited to do so for particular issues. They were not permanent members. This is the first time women will have official positions on these major committees, and former women leaders in the church called the moves a historic step forward.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865634860/In-a-significant-move-women-to-join-key-leading-LDS-Church-councils.html?pg=all

Who was the Second Priest(ess) who knelt at the Altar with Father Adam when the first Animal Sacrifice was made in History?

The Matriarchal Priesthood of Mother Eve (PER: LDS.ORG)

"Eve served in matriarchal partnership with the patriarchal priesthood. So today, each wife may join with her husband as a partner unified in purpose. ." https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/service/serving-in-the-church/relief-society/RS-SG1-LessonsfromEve-eng.pdf

Edited December 22, 2015 by Zakuska

smac97 · December 22, 2015

8 minutes ago, Gray said:

If revelation could be used to take the place of academic study and inquiry, no one would ever need to cram for a test at BYU. A quick prayer would be all you needed to ace the history final.

But obviously we're operating with very different assumptions about the nature of revelation.

Thanks

I never spoke of using "revelation" to "take the place of academic study and inquiry". In fact, I specifically said that "I am willing to listen to what academics have to say". Moreover, I think academic study is not only advisable, but required in our scriptures:

“Jesus answered [the Sadducees] and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.” (Matt. 22:29)
“And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith.” (D&C 109:7)
“Today we are troubled by evil-designing persons who [endeavor] … to destroy the testimonies of members of the Church, and many … are in danger because of lack of understanding and because they have not sought the guidance of the Spirit. … It is a commandment from the Lord that members … be diligent … and study … the fundamental truths of the gospel. … Every baptized person [can] have an abiding testimony. … but [it] … will grow dim and eventually disappear [without] … study, obedience, and diligent seeking to know and understand the truth” – Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith (1963)
“We have never been encouraged to be blindly obedient; it is an intelligent obedience that characterizes members of the Church.” – L. Tom Perry

I can't speak to your "assumptions about the nature of revelation".

Thanks,

-Smac

Zakuska · December 22, 2015

44 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Then it's a question that we'll never be able to answer, I think. We can guess that what God gave to Joseph about Moses was a position that presented a correct understanding of ancient Israelitish beliefs, or it could be that God messages to Joseph and Joseph read into it a position on priesthood that was not necessarily intended. I really think it unwise to view the creating of scripture without the notion that the author and interpreters are subjects influencing, largely it's creation--particularly since we can't really clearly answer that subject.

Either we treat the D&C as a separate work from the OT, which itself is comprised of many various perspectives, and thus not able to speak to the complex issues, cultural and all, of the OT, or we assume as you do--that more recent scripture defines OT writings.

Its interesting that on Mose's Executive Priesthood Council... a woman was included.

Micah 6

4 For I brought thee up out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of servants; and I sent before thee Moses, Aaron, and Miriam.

Miriam is the only woman in history known to have been allowed to enter the sacred Tabernacle courtyard.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Zakuska

smac97 · December 22, 2015

14 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Then it's a question that we'll never be able to answer, I think. We can guess that what God gave to Joseph about Moses was a position that presented a correct understanding of ancient Israelitish beliefs, or it could be that God messages to Joseph and Joseph read into it a position on priesthood that was not necessarily intended. I really think it unwise to view the creating of scripture without the notion that the author and interpreters are subjects influencing, largely it's creation--particularly since we can't really clearly answer that subject.

Either we treat the D&C as a separate work from the OT, which itself is comprised of many various perspectives, and thus not able to speak to the complex issues, cultural and all, of the OT, or we assume as you do--that more recent scripture defines OT writings.

I'm okay with proceeding without precise answers to every facet about the Restored Gospel. As a Latter-day Saint, I can't just ignore the Doctrine & Covenants any more than I could the New Testament, or distrust it because it is arises from revelation to Joseph Smith. I'm not saying all revelations are utterly pristine as received from Joseph Smith. But when he speaks plainly about, say, the priesthood pedigree of Moses, I'm not very inclined to utterly disregard that pedigree as merely the imaginings of Joseph Smith.

Thanks,

-Smac

Zakuska · December 22, 2015

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