Anakin7 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 (edited) I have been in a light communication via internet with a minister who is a follower of Jesus Christ and His Gospel through the Lens and teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg. He considers LDS Christians I believe. He did share the following link with me about the possibility of Joseph Smith Jr getting his True Doctrines/Teachings by way of The Doctrines and Teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg - http://craigwmiller.tripod.com/interest.htm- Entitled "Did Emanuel Swedengorg Influence LDSDoctrine ?". Let the thoughts/posts be Christlike/Charitable. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited October 22, 2015 by Anakin7 Link to comment
Duncan Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 I have been in a light communication via internet with a minister who is a follower of Jesus Christ and His Gospel through the Lens and teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg. He considers LDS Christians I believe. He did share the following link with me about the possibility of Joseph Smith Jr getting his True Doctrines/Teachings by way of The Doctrines and Teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg - craigwmiller.tripod.com/interest.htm - Entitled "Did Emanuel Swedengorg Influence LDSDoctrine ?". Let the thoughts/posts be Christlike/Charitable.In His Eternal Debt/GraceAnakin7 read thishttps://rsc.byu.edu/archived/selected-articles/joseph-smith-emanuel-swedenborg-and-section-76 1 Link to comment
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 (edited) Swedenborg claimed he visited heaven and hell and saw and experienced what he saw and experienced. It doesn't have to mean that Joseph Smith copied Swedenborg, it could mean both are correct with how things really are in the eternities and importance of Celestial marriage. Swedenborg could have been lucky enough to experience the truth in the 1700s and then Joseph through revelation also saw what was revealed to Swedenborg. Edited October 22, 2015 by VideoGameJunkie 3 Link to comment
Anakin7 Posted October 22, 2015 Author Share Posted October 22, 2015 Thank you Duncan for that Awesome link. May True Grace Be with You and Those you Love. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 1 Link to comment
Stargazer Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 In LDS author Brent L. Top's book, Glimpses Beyond Death's Door, he quotes Swedenborg fairly frequently, in amongst mostly non-LDS NDEs. 1 Link to comment
Anakin7 Posted October 22, 2015 Author Share Posted October 22, 2015 Can anyone please translate posts #s 5-7 by KristiPl please ?. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Link to comment
jkwilliams Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Can anyone please translate posts #s 5-7 by KristiPl please ?.In His Eternal Debt/GraceAnakin7 Sure, it's Korean for "spam." 2 Link to comment
Anakin7 Posted October 22, 2015 Author Share Posted October 22, 2015 (edited) I luv Spam [The one you physicaly eat out of a can] !. Now more serious let the posts continue. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited October 22, 2015 by Anakin7 Link to comment
rpn Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 I read the actual book that critics claim JS plaigarized from. Its been several years and I don't recall details, just my wondering how anyone could read it and presume JS got what we know from it. Yes, it contains reference to three heavens and it is a religious text.. But other than that I just didn't see a similarity. Link to comment
Anakin7 Posted October 23, 2015 Author Share Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) My Minister friend Lee Woofenden who I have been in communication with that I mentioned in post #1 told me that he checked out the thread here and the link in post #2 and stated that is was good LDS scholarship and the article was facinating but did contain some inaccuracies. He may join us in this thread possibly if time permits him to. If he joins us please be Christlike and Charitable. He stated to me he knows little of Joseph Smith and The LDS Church. Thank you. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited October 23, 2015 by Anakin7 3 Link to comment
Stargazer Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 My Minister friend Lee Woofenden who I have been in communication with that I mentioned in post #1 told me that he checked out the thread here and the link in post #2 and stated that is was good LDS scholarship and the article was facinating but did contain some inaccuracies. He may join us in this thread possibly if time permits him to. If he joins us please be Christlike and Charitable. He stated to me he knows little of Joseph Smith and The LDS Church. Thank you.In His Eternal Debt/GraceAnakin7 Why does the name Lee Woofenden sound familiar? To me, at least? Well, I don't expect you to read my mind, but is there a reason why I might think it's familiar? Link to comment
Popular Post Lee Woofenden Posted October 23, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted October 23, 2015 The inaccuracies in the excellent article linked by Duncan are relatively minor, and don't affect the main thesis of the article. I think the author does a very good job of analyzing the complexities of "influence" in a case where there are no clear quotes or solid documentation, but only circumstantial evidence and probable reasons to think that Joseph Smith had some familiarity with Emanuel Swedenborg's teachings. The author's mention of truth coming via many sources, not to be rejected because it appears elsewhere than in the great theologian's work, is, I think, very sensible. Certainly Swedenborg (our great theologian) drew on many sources, pre-eminently the Bible, but also ancient and modern (to him) philosophers, scientists, and (to a lesser extent) theologians in presenting and elaborating his teachings and Bible interpretations. For the faithful, there should be nothing to fear in recognizing that truth has come out at various times and in various places, and that the human messengers and prophets of God's truth have their eyes and minds open to perceiving that truth through many channels that God uses to communicate with us humans here on earth. If Joseph Smith was prepared by God to hear and understand some of his revelations through earlier readings and influences, how does that contradict the belief of the faithful that he received a genuine revelation from God? God may be omniscient, but we humans are not. God must prepare us to be able to receive and understand the truth when it is presented to us. So I would say that the charge that Joseph Smith "plagiarized" Swedenborg's works is overly harsh. For one thing, the very idea of plagiarism, and especially the harsh condemnation of it, is of relatively recent origin. In earlier centuries authors freely borrowed from one another. An educated person was expected to be able to see the lines of connection. After all, unlike today, in those days it was still possible for a single person to have read most or all of the major literature of humankind. Present-day scholarly standards of quotation and attribution had not yet been developed, formalized, and imposed on writers and scholars. Swedenborg commonly drew ideas from many sources, and only occasionally stated where they came from--except, of course, when he was establishing the Biblical basis of a particular doctrine, in which case he quoted the Bible very heavily. 5 Link to comment
Lee Woofenden Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 About the inaccuracies in the article, two of them bear mentioning. The first is the more substantial of the two. It occurs due to a conflation of two distinct, though interconnected, teachings in Swedenborg about the regions of heaven. In Swedenborg's Heaven and Hell there are several chapters about the organization of heaven. Here are headings of the two relevant ones: Heaven is Divided into Two Kingdoms There Are Three Heavens In Swedenborg's system, then, the three heavens are not the same thing as the two kingdoms of heaven, even though they are similarly named. Here are the traditional names of the two kingdoms and the three heavens: Kingdoms:The celestial kingdomThe spiritual kingdomHeavens:The celestial heavenThe spiritual heavenThe natural heaven Though Swedenborg himself does not always clearly distinguish between the heavens and the kingdoms, when he is speaking carefully, he does distinguish them. A simplistic (though not entirely accurate) way of conceiving of them is as a grid with one vertical division and two horizontal divisions. Or more in line with Swedenborg's own presentation, as the right and left sides of the human body (the kingdoms) and as the head, torso, and limbs of the human body (the heavens). To be accurate, the kingdoms are actually associated with the heart (or cardiovascular system) and the lungs, which extend their influence into all parts of the body. The diagrammatic presentation simply gives an easier way to think of heaven as consisting of two kingdoms and three heavens. Setting aside the complexities of Swedenborg's description of the organization of heaven, the few passages in Swedenborg, referred to in the article, that associate the sun with one part of heaven and the moon with another are speaking of the two kingdoms, not the three heavens. Since the article doesn't take into account that there are both heavens and kingdoms in Swedenborg's system, some of its statements mix together regions and ideas that are actually distinct in Swedenborg's theology. However, even many Swedenborgians are not very clear on the distinction between the heavens and the kingdoms, so it is not surprising that an outside scholar would not pick up on this distinction. It is, as I said before, a relatively minor inaccuracy, and doesn't greatly affect the main argument and flow of the article. 2 Link to comment
Lee Woofenden Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 The other inaccuracy occurs in footnote 57, in the statements about John Hyde, Jr., who was a member of the LDS church early in life, but later became a Swedenborgian. There were actually two Hydes who were Swedenborgian ministers in the late 1800s and early 1900s. One of them was the aforementioned John Hyde, Jr., and the other was James Hyde. These two were apparently unrelated to one another. Unfortunately, the footnote doesn't distinguish between the two, and states that the Hyde that had been a member of the LDS church was the author/editor of a standard bibliography of Swedenborg's works, which is commonly referred to among Swedenborgian scholars as "Hyde's Bibliography." However, that bibliography was not compiled by John Hyde, but by James Hyde. John Hyde was the author of a number of Swedenborgian books and pamphlets, but had nothing to do with the bibliography. This is really just a "footnote" type error, and probably resulted from some sort of mixup in the information provided by the librarian of the Swedenborgian library that the author consulted in writing the article. Despite this error, for me it was fascinating to learn that one of our nineteenth century Swedenborgian ministers had once belonged to the LDS church. 1 Link to comment
Lee Woofenden Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 In my above example of the kingdoms and heavens, it would probably have been clearer if I'd said that the diagram has one vertical dividing line and two horizontal dividing lines, so that it has two sides, right and left, and three levels, top, middle, and bottom. 2 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 The inaccuracies in the excellent article linked by Duncan are relatively minor, and don't affect the main thesis of the article. I think the author does a very good job of analyzing the complexities of "influence" in a case where there are no clear quotes or solid documentation, but only circumstantial evidence and probable reasons to think that Joseph Smith had some familiarity with Emanuel Swedenborg's teachings. The author's mention of truth coming via many sources, not to be rejected because it appears elsewhere than in the great theologian's work, is, I think, very sensible. Certainly Swedenborg (our great theologian) drew on many sources, pre-eminently the Bible, but also ancient and modern (to him) philosophers, scientists, and (to a lesser extent) theologians in presenting and elaborating his teachings and Bible interpretations. For the faithful, there should be nothing to fear in recognizing that truth has come out at various times and in various places, and that the human messengers and prophets of God's truth have their eyes and minds open to perceiving that truth through many channels that God uses to communicate with us humans here on earth. If Joseph Smith was prepared by God to hear and understand some of his revelations through earlier readings and influences, how does that contradict the belief of the faithful that he received a genuine revelation from God? God may be omniscient, but we humans are not. God must prepare us to be able to receive and understand the truth when it is presented to us. So I would say that the charge that Joseph Smith "plagiarized" Swedenborg's works is overly harsh. For one thing, the very idea of plagiarism, and especially the harsh condemnation of it, is of relatively recent origin. In earlier centuries authors freely borrowed from one another. An educated person was expected to be able to see the lines of connection. After all, unlike today, in those days it was still possible for a single person to have read most or all of the major literature of humankind. Present-day scholarly standards of quotation and attribution had not yet been developed, formalized, and imposed on writers and scholars. Swedenborg commonly drew ideas from many sources, and only occasionally stated where they came from--except, of course, when he was establishing the Biblical basis of a particular doctrine, in which case he quoted the Bible very heavily.Welcome to the board. I have had some "flirtations" with Swedenborg and it will be great to have a genuine Swedenborgian around to bounce stuff off of. I am a major fan of William James who was raised of course in a Swedenborgian family. Link to comment
Lee Woofenden Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Welcome to the board. I have had some "flirtations" with Swedenborg and it will be great to have a genuine Swedenborgian around to bounce stuff off of. I am a major fan of William James who was raised of course in a Swedenborgian family. Thank you. Yes, the James family was a strange and wonderful bunch that produced some brilliant thinkers. I can't promise to be a regular here, but if you can't catch me here, you can always find me at my blog:Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life 1 Link to comment
Anakin7 Posted October 24, 2015 Author Share Posted October 24, 2015 Lee I have been away for awhile, welcome ! . Looking forward to us all in dialogue with one another. Question for you - would you put The LDS in The Christian Mansion somewhere ?. May you and those you Love be blessed by True Grace. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Link to comment
Stargazer Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) Hi Lee, and welcome! You might be interested in a book by LDS author Brent Top (and his wife Wendy) entitled "Glimpses Beyond Death's Door", because while they examine near-death experiences (mostly non-LDS reports) and compare them with LDS theology -- they also quote and compare many things written by Emanuel Swedenborg. I was startled to see the Swedenborgian quotes, since what I knew about him at the time I read the book would have fit a thimble with room to spare, and the relevance was quite new to me. Edited October 24, 2015 by Stargazer 1 Link to comment
volgadon Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 Hi Lee, and welcome! You might be interested in a book by LDS author Brent Top (and his wife Wendy) entitled "Glimpses Beyond Death's Door", because while they examine near-death experiences (mostly non-LDS reports) and compare them with LDS theology -- they also quote and compare many things written by Emanuel Swedenborg. I was startled to see the Swedenborgian quotes, since what I knew about him at the time I read the book would have fit a thimble with room to spare, and the relevance was quite new to me.I had actually given my wife this book a few years ago. It was interesting to see prominent space given to Swedenborg. 1 Link to comment
Lee Woofenden Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Lee I have been away for awhile, welcome ! . Looking forward to us all in dialogue with one another. Question for you - would you put The LDS in The Christian Mansion somewhere ?. May you and those you Love be blessed by True Grace. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 It's not really my job to decide who's Christian and who's not. Even if I disagree with some key parts of LDS doctrine, in my view it's not doctrine, but life that makes one a Christian. Here are the basics of Christian doctrine and life boiled down to their essence, in the Swedenborgian conception: Believe in one God, who is the Lord God Jesus Christ. Stop doing evil things, and do what is good instead. Realize that everything good you do comes from God.You can decide for yourself whether you think LDS is "Christian" by these standards. But I would say that the key is whether a person lives by the teachings of Jesus. That's what makes us Christian or not. --Lee 4 Link to comment
Lee Woofenden Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Hi Lee, and welcome! You might be interested in a book by LDS author Brent Top (and his wife Wendy) entitled "Glimpses Beyond Death's Door", because while they examine near-death experiences (mostly non-LDS reports) and compare them with LDS theology -- they also quote and compare many things written by Emanuel Swedenborg. I was startled to see the Swedenborgian quotes, since what I knew about him at the time I read the book would have fit a thimble with room to spare, and the relevance was quite new to me.Thank you. I've heard of the Tops' book, but have not read it. The book that broke open NDEs to the public, Life After Life, also included a whole section on Swedenborg. It's hard to cover NDEs in any thorough way without referencing Swedenborg, even though Swedenborg's experience of the spiritual world was on a whole different order of magnitude than that of the various NDEers When Life After LIfe first came out in the mid-1970s, we Swedenborgians were very excited. Finally we did not feel so alone in our beliefs based on experience about the spiritual world. 1 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) It's not really my job to decide who's Christian and who's not. Even if I disagree with some key parts of LDS doctrine, in my view it's not doctrine, but life that makes one a Christian. Here are the basics of Christian doctrine and life boiled down to their essence, in the Swedenborgian conception:Believe in one God, who is the Lord God Jesus Christ. Stop doing evil things, and do what is good instead. Realize that everything good you do comes from God.You can decide for yourself whether you think LDS is "Christian" by these standards. But I would say that the key is whether a person lives by the teachings of Jesus. That's what makes us Christian or not.--LeeI would like to know more on your rejection of the Trinity/Godhead /three in one notion.What is that beliefs basis?Jesus worshipped his father Edited October 26, 2015 by mfbukowski Link to comment
Anakin7 Posted October 26, 2015 Author Share Posted October 26, 2015 Thank you Lee for your thoughts and for sharing them. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 I would like to know more on your rejection of the Trinity/Godhead /three in one notion.What is that beliefs basis?Jesus worshipped his fatherOK Lee, I found the answer, and it appears I disagree with it, but that's fine Thanks also for your participation, looking forward to seeing you more Link to comment
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