Modern Religious Satanism And The Evolving L D S View Of The " Great And Abominable Church"

[Tsuzuki]

I'm wondering if the modern rise of groups like the Church of Satan and the Satanic Panic of the '80s and '90s, have had any influence on how the LDS church views the "Great and Abominable Church". Anton LaVey's Church of Satan was formed in 1966, the same year as the 2nd edition of "Mormon Doctrine". What's the timeline of popular Mormon views on "Satan's church" and the shift away from it referring to other Christian churches?

[Alan]

In my view the great and abominable church described in the book of Mormon clearly refers to the Roman Catholic Church and it's offspring.

[Tsuzuki]

In my view the great and abominable church described in the book of Mormon clearly refers to the Roman Catholic Church and it's offspring.

So, when my religion openly reveres the Great Beast and the Whore of Babylon as positive icons, I'm in the clear because of Catholicism?

[hagoth7]

I don't think events of 1966 had anything to do with any such shift, perceived or otherwise.

 

As I've said elsewhere, God's servants were persecuted and slain prior to the foundation of the Catholic church, and have suffered such treatment long since.

 

And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the ^ajudgment of the great ^bwhore that sitteth upon many ^cwaters:With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the ^ainhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her ^bfornication.....And I saw the woman drunken with the ^ablood of the saints, and with the blood of the ^bmartyrs of Jesus...And in her was found the ^ablood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

 

For example, the Catholic church apparently had nothing to do with the martyrdom of the earliest apostles in the 1st century AD, or with the martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum in the 19th century.

[hagoth7]

So, when my religion openly reveres the Great Beast and the Whore of Babylon as positive icons, I'm in the clear because of Catholicism?

? In what way does your religion revere the beast and the whore of Babylon?

 

And what basis does your religion give for doing so?

 

Please consider the context of the quote in my previous post.

[Tsuzuki]

? In what way does your religion revere the beast and the whore of Babylon?

 

And what basis does your religion give for doing so?

 

Please consider the context of the quote in my previous post.

 

[Tsuzuki]

[Tsuzuki]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therion_(Thelema)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babalon

[gclayjr]

I believe that the church has been clear that the "Great and Abominable Church" refers to any church that works against the true Church of Christ and to be careful about identifying any specific religion... particularly Catholocism as IT. 

 

I think this is a bit like "Anti Christ" there is much speculation as to who the "Anti-Christ" is or will be, but LDS doctrine is that anybody who works against Christ and his mission is an "Anti Christ".

 

Regards,

 

George Clay

[Kevin Christensen]

In my view the great and abominable church described in the book of Mormon clearly refers to the Roman Catholic Church and it's offspring.

Stephen Robinson made a detailed argument to the contrary, and even got a version published in the Ensign.  Here is the JBMS version.

 

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1397&index=6

 

FWIW

 

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[Spammer]

In my view the great and abominable church described in the book of Mormon clearly refers to the Roman Catholic Church and it's offspring.

 

Good to know that the rest of Nicene Christianity in the East is off the hook (Eastern Orthodoxy, Coptic Christianity, Armenian Christianity, the Assyrian Church of the East, etc.)

Edited October 16, 2015 by Spammer

[bluebell]

Stephen Robinson made a detailed argument to the contrary, and even got a version published in the Ensign.  Here is the JBMS version.

 

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1397&index=6

 

FWIW

 

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

One of my favorite articles.  I think he makes an excellent case for why it's not the Catholic church.

[JLHPROF]

Just curious Tsuzuki how you are able to start threads on limited status?  I thought that blocked thread creation.

 

 

So, when my religion openly reveres the Great Beast and the Whore of Babylon as positive icons, I'm in the clear because of Catholicism?

 

 

Oh, I wouldn't go that far.  

[Storm Rider]

In my view the great and abominable church described in the book of Mormon clearly refers to the Roman Catholic Church and it's offspring.

 

Decades ago I heard this line of thinking and I have long since rejected it.  The RCC does not support evil and against God; that pretty much indicates that it is not part of the G&A church.  I find the lines between God and the devil to be more clear and not as grey as this proposal would require.

 

Just two cents. 

[Tsuzuki]

Just curious Tsuzuki how you are able to start threads on limited status?  I thought that blocked thread creation.

One of the benefits of being in a secret combination.

[Robert F. Smith]

....................................................................

 

For example, the Catholic church apparently had nothing to do with the martyrdom of the earliest apostles in the 1st century AD, or with the martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum in the 19th century.

Them was Protestants what done it.

[Robert F. Smith]

Stephen Robinson made a detailed argument to the contrary, and even got a version published in the Ensign.  Here is the JBMS version.

 

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1397&index=6

 

FWIW

 

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Robinson's comments (particularly those on page 34) are very useful.  However, it might well be argued that the RC Church before the Counter-Reformation had been commandeered and controlled by Satan.  Certainly that was the conclusion of Martin Luther, who was a very knowledgeable doctor of that Church.  Luther said that “Rome is the brothel of all brothels,” and the Pope is the “Antichrist” -- Luther, “An Open Letter to the Christian Nobility of the German Nation” (1520), in Works of Martin Luther (1915), II, online at http://www.iclnet.org/pnb/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/web/nblty-04.html ; Luther, “Against the Roman Papacy: An Institution of the Devil” (1546), in Luther’s Works (1915-1932/1982), IV:263,357-358.

[Robert F. Smith]

I believe that the church has been clear that the "Great and Abominable Church" refers to any church that works against the true Church of Christ and to be careful about identifying any specific religion... particularly Catholocism as IT. 

 

I think this is a bit like "Anti Christ" there is much speculation as to who the "Anti-Christ" is or will be, but LDS doctrine is that anybody who works against Christ and his mission is an "Anti Christ".

 

Regards,

 

George Clay

It's a little more complicated than that:  An anti-christ is an imposter who pretends to be the real Christ.

[Tsuzuki]

It's a little more complicated than that: An anti-christ is an imposter who pretends to be the real Christ.

Outer Darkness is just the back door to the Celestial Kingdom.

[Alan]

Robinson's comments (particularly those on page 34) are very useful.  However, it might well be argued that the RC Church before the Counter-Reformation had been commandeered and controlled by Satan.  Certainly that was the conclusion of Martin Luther, who was a very knowledgeable doctor of that Church.  Luther said that “Rome is the brothel of all brothels,” and the Pope is the “Antichrist” -- Luther, “An Open Letter to the Christian Nobility of the German Nation” (1520), in Works of Martin Luther (1915), II, online at http://www.iclnet.org/pnb/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/web/nblty-04.html ; Luther, “Against the Roman Papacy: An Institution of the Devil” (1546), in Luther’s Works (1915-1932/1982), IV:263,357-358.

Luther was right and still is.

However, the Reformation was simply a deflection.

I beive the RC church (and it's "protestant" children will yet be revealed as the intity described by Nephi.

[Tsuzuki]

Luther was right and still is.

However, the Reformation was simply a deflection.

I beive the RC church (and it's "protestant" children will yet be revealed as the intity described by Nephi.

Hail Satan.

[hagoth7]

Video

2.75 hours? Tsuzuki, while I appreciate the link, I don't have 2.75 hrs to commit to a number of things, and the Wikipedia links in your subsequent post were more confusing than helpful. Can you spell out a clear reply to my two questions in post #5 with a brief paragraph or two?

 

Thank you.

Edited October 17, 2015 by hagoth7

[Tsuzuki]

2.75 hours? Tsuzuki, while I appreciate the link, I don't have 2.75 hrs to commit to a number of things, and the Wikipedia links in your subsequent post were more confusing than helpful. Can you spell out a clear reply to my two questions in post #5 with a brief paragraph or two?

 

Thank you.

The video is worth the time, and any summary of mine wouldn't do it justice, but my main point was that it's ridiculous to label one of your theological allies as Satan's church when there are groups that actively embrace satanic imagery and philosophy. There are a multitude of openly "left-hand path" religions, but some people keep going on about the Catholic Church as the "church of the Devil", as illustrated in the comment I responded to. We are way more the Church of the Devil than they are.

[MiserereNobis]

Certainly that was the conclusion of Martin Luther, who was a very knowledgeable doctor of that Church. 

 

Martin Luther was not a doctor of the Church.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_the_Church#Catholic_Church

 

Martin Luther is an amazingly clear-cut case of "anti-Catholic."  He's an ex-Catholic, too.  Mormons always say don't listen to what ex-Mormon anti-Mormons have to say about the Mormon church.  Why wouldn't you apply the same criteria to Luther?

[MiserereNobis]

Luther was right and still is.

However, the Reformation was simply a deflection.

I beive the RC church (and it's "protestant" children will yet be revealed as the intity described by Nephi.

 

I'll ask you, as well.  Why would you listen to what an ex-Catholic anti-Catholic has to say about the Roman Church?  Should I listen to what an ex-Mormon anti-Mormon has to say about the LDS church?  After all, they once were a member, so they have inside information, right?