hagoth7 Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 (edited) The video is worth the time, and any summary of mine wouldn't do it justice...I'll have to pass, but thank you all the same.... Edited October 18, 2015 by hagoth7
Tsuzuki Posted October 18, 2015 Author Posted October 18, 2015 I'll have to pass, but thank you all the same....Your loss.
RevTestament Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 It's a little more complicated than that: An anti-christ is an imposter who pretends to be the real Christ.Scripture?As far as I can tell, anti-Christs are openly anti, and deny the Son. An example would be the Qu'ran which openly denies that God has a Son. By God I refer to the Most High God of the Tanakh. In the Islamic faith it is shirk to believe or state that God shares His power with anyone. Mohammed never pretended to be the real Christ or savior.
bluebell Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 In the Islamic faith it is shirk to believe or state that God shares His power with anyone. Mohammed never pretended to be the real Christ or savior. Isn't that true for the Jewish faith as well? Their strict monotheism won't allow for the concept of a Son of God that is just as much God as God the Father, will it?
RevTestament Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Stephen Robinson made a detailed argument to the contrary, and even got a version published in the Ensign. Here is the JBMS version. http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1397&index=6 FWIW Kevin ChristensenCanonsburg, PA I really fail to see how that is to the contrary. He points out among other things:It persecutes, tortures, and slays the Saints of God (see 1 Nephi 13:5).Perhaps Christians have forgotten the horrors of the inquisitions? The Spanish inquisition was particularly bad. It seeks wealth and luxury (see 1 Nephi 13:7–.See the Medieval history on the papal golden tiaras. However, they were all destroyed by Napoleon. 3. It is characterized by sexual immorality (see 1 Nephi 13:7).Have you watched Frontline or other documentaries about the homosexual situation in Rome? We know the RCC priest situation in the United States is somewhat bad. Nor is the papacy exempt. See history on the "wives" etc of the midieval papacy.4. It has excised plain and precious things from the scriptures (see 1 Nephi 13:26–29).The Latin Bibles changed Genesis 3 to refer to the seed as being "she" or the RCC. They also changed "Chittim" to Italy while Maccabees makes it clear Chittim was Macedonia to the Jews. There are others I won't go into here.5. It has dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people (see 1 Nephi 14:11).The papacy so ruled the world that there was even a "Holy Roman Empire" whose emperors answered to the papacy. The papacy also rules over 1 billion Catholics in every country of the world. And her doctrines have affected virtually all branches of traditional Christianity. 6. Its fate is to be consumed by a world war, when the nations it incites against the Saints war among themselves until the great and abominable church itself is destroyed (see 1 Nephi 22:13–14).Spiritual warfare doesn't necessarily imply temporal warfare.But Revelation warns "come out of her, that ye be not partakers of her plagues." This is one of the places I actually agreed with McKonkie who in his first edition of Mormon Doctrine opined that he RCC fits the bill - which it does.
RevTestament Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) Isn't that true for the Jewish faith as well? Their strict monotheism won't allow for the concept of a Son of God that is just as much God as God the Father, will it?True. Yep, Judaism can be anti-Christ. Which explains why God has not been with them for 2000 years but has striven amongst Christians. However, I don't see most Jews teaching against Christ - they just don't accept him. There can be a difference. Edited October 19, 2015 by RevTestament
RevTestament Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Your loss.Not really. I tried to listen to that thing, and it was simply awful imho. I can't fathom what you see in it.
Calm Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 "Perhaps Christians have forgotten the horrors of the inquisitions? The Spanish inquisition was particularly bad."CFR your claims.There is a wide range of writings on the Inquistion, including much promoting the "Black Legend". Current scholarship aprroaches it in significantly different ways so it is important to show what you are basing your claim on in order to understand it. 1
RevTestament Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Decades ago I heard this line of thinking and I have long since rejected it. The RCC does not support evil and against God; that pretty much indicates that it is not part of the G&A church. I find the lines between God and the devil to be more clear and not as grey as this proposal would require. Just two cents. The RCC did for many years persecute other Christians, and would probably still be doing so today if the Great Reformation and rebellion against her totalitarian ways hadn't happened. And her creeds are still the basis for the persecution of others - even for the persecution of the early LDS church. Jesus did not teach to go and torture others until they agree with your beliefs - quite the opposite. That is how bad the RCC got. I am quite sure if you lived in the day of the Inquisitions you would conclude that she did "support evil and against God."
RevTestament Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 "Perhaps Christians have forgotten the horrors of the inquisitions? The Spanish inquisition was particularly bad."CFR your claims.There is a wide range of writings on the Inquistion, including much promoting the "Black Legend". Current scholarship aprroaches it in significantly different ways so it is important to show what you are basing your claim on in order to understand it.see http://revelationtestament.net/ There is plenty there. The crusades against the Albigensians, the Waldensians, etc also speak to this. Christians have forgotten why the Dark Ages were dark. John 9:44 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Storm Rider Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) The RCC did for many years persecute other Christians, and would probably still be doing so today if the Great Reformation and rebellion against her totalitarian ways hadn't happened. And her creeds are still the basis for the persecution of others - even for the persecution of the early LDS church. Jesus did not teach to go and torture others until they agree with your beliefs - quite the opposite. That is how bad the RCC got. I am quite sure if you lived in the day of the Inquisitions you would conclude that she did "support evil and against God." Hello Rev, I have been a student of religion for a while. I am pretty conversant about the Catholic Church's history including her persecutions of those she felt fell into heresy, the actions of her representatives in the Americas and the actions against Muslims and other communities. I am also aware of the lives of many of the saints and simple members that strove with all their being to follow Christ and emulate his love. The Catholic Church was made of very human people who fell to the same temptations that we do. I think some of her leaders were not men of God yet served in high capacity within the church hierarchy and yet there were others that were truly men of God. I am not Catholic and never have been, but I think it is error to throw the baby out with the bath water. Edited October 20, 2015 by Storm Rider 3
RevTestament Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Hello Rev, I have been a student of religion for a while. I am pretty conversant about the Catholic Church's history including her persecutions of those she felt fell into heresy, the actions of her representatives in the Americas and the actions against Muslims and other communities. I am also aware of the lives of many of the saints and simple members that strove with all their being to follow Christ and emulate his love. The Catholic Church was made of very human people who fell to the same temptations that we do. I think some of her leaders were not men of God yet served in high capacity within the church hierarchy and yet there were others that were truly men of God. I am not Catholic and never have been, but I think it is error to through the baby out with the bath water. My purpose is not to demean Catholics. I have had Catholic friends (not sure now...) and I believe many to be fine people. That doesn't mean that their church was not the persecuting church of history though. It was. It also doesn't mean that she is not the source of errant creeds which presumed to tell God His nature....Again I am definitely not trying to be hateful or cause others to be so, I am just pointing out that the RCC meets the scriptural prophecies. I am glad you take a level-headed and Christ-like attitude towards our Catholic brethren. However, the time for business-as-usual has run out for the Catholic church - the bath water will be thrown out. Hopefully, the baby will wake up and jump ship.
Calm Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Psstt....CFR is not satisfied if link doesn't work...
Yirgacheffe Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 I'll ask you, as well. Why would you listen to what an ex-Catholic anti-Catholic has to say about the Roman Church? Should I listen to what an ex-Mormon anti-Mormon has to say about the LDS church? After all, they once were a member, so they have inside information, right?How come no one responds to this, why should people not listen to former members of the Mormon church if you are willing to listen to (and quote) former members of other faiths?
Calm Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Perhaps because a lot of us don't assume Luther is a good source about the Catholic Church?
sunstoned Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 In my view the great and abominable church described in the book of Mormon clearly refers to the Roman Catholic Church and it's offspring.Of course it does, because that is what Joseph Smith intended it to be. In the early 19th century there was a lot of anti-catholic hostility and opposition. Joseph Smith incorporated this into the BofM along with infant baptism and other hot topics of the day.
Tsuzuki Posted October 20, 2015 Author Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) Not really. I tried to listen to that thing, and it was simply awful imho. I can't fathom what you see in it.What I see in it is a scholarly presentation by a member of my Order (O.T.O.) about the principle of Satan in the religious tradition that I embrace (Thelema). You just don't like it because it shows you're wrong. The church of the devil isn't Catholicism, it's me. Edited October 20, 2015 by Tsuzuki
RevTestament Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Psstt....CFR is not satisfied if link doesn't work...sorry, let me try it again. I think the software picked up on a spacehttp://revelationtestament.net/
RevTestament Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 What I see in it is a scholarly presentation by a member of my Order (O.T.O.) about the principle of Satan in the religious tradition that I embrace (Thelema). You just don't like it because it shows you're wrong. No, because I found the presentation to be terribly boring to be honest, and largely irrelevant. Perhaps, you can clue me in at what minutes of the video show I am "wrong." The church of the devil isn't Catholicism, it's me. If you say so. But I say it was Satan who perverted the simple truths of the scriptures even within the church with the help of the Roman state and Greek philosophiers(my own word there ). 1
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