Is It Wiser To Listen To The Experts And Researchers?

[Stargazer]

Well if the mods made one AGW thread to rule them all and pin it to the top, maybe so many other threads wouldn't devolve into it. But that's their call.

I'm done with it on your thread. As you wish...

"Thank you for your understanding and cooperation, but I'm sure some valiant soul will take up where you left off," he said sourly.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Stargazer

[ERayR]

Well if the mods made one AGW thread to rule them all and pin it to the top, maybe so many other threads wouldn't devolve into it. But that's their call.

I'm done with it on your thread. As you wish...

 

Me too.  Sorry.

[Ahab]

I have no problem with God. I do have plenty of problems with what mortals claim He said. IE; I never went to medical school, have no training or expertise as a medical surgeon. Can I pick up a sharp knife and do open heart surgery on you if I claim God told me how to do it?

Is that the best you could do with what I said? Try again to take what I said in good faith.

Someone claiming to know something based on testimony from God can really be a valid claim, at least sometimes, you very well know.

What all of us need is a way to know things from what God is willing to teach us if we ask in good faith.

And yes that means that it is at least possible that God could give you adequate knowledge to do good work in open art surgery even if you hadn't previously learned anything at all about medicine.

[Bee Sweet]

You think this is something to cheer about? Autism is a devastating neurodevelopmental disorder.

 

 MMR antibodies are significantly higher in autistic children as compared in typical children, hence the  role in autism. My grandson's MMR antibodies are off the charts, supporting the possibility of its increase in autism is something that cannot be overlooked. AMEN to that!

 

MMR vaccination is known to increase the risk of autism via an autoimmune disorder. I will say no more, seeing is believing.

[mfbukowski]

I found a really cool website which suggests open-heart surgery by acupuncture.

It claims it will cut down on the medical cost of anethesia.

It scared me so bad I decided to start running 5 miles every morning.

Oh yeah, acupuncture- great idea

 

You get to hear the bone saw while they cut your sternum in half lengthwise and get out those good old rib spreaders. Crank, crank, crunch crunch.

 

I think I would want a few more needles that three in a few chi points.  Cheaper?  Oh heck yeah.  Better yet, I could just do it myself and pretend I don't hear my own screaming.

 

Where's that mirror?

 

Definitely start running and don't wait til tomorrow.

Edited October 18, 2015 by mfbukowski

[Stargazer]

Oh yeah, acupuncture- great idea

 

You get to hear the bone saw while they cut your sternum in half lengthwise and get out those good old rib spreaders. Crank, crank, crunch crunch.

 

I think I would want a few more needles that three in a few chi points.  Cheaper?  Oh heck yeah.  Better yet, I could just do it myself and pretend I don't hear my own screaming.

 

Where's that mirror?

 

Definitely start running and don't wait til tomorrow.

I just saw The Martian and there's a scene of Matt Damon's character doing surgery on himself using only local anesthesia. Ouch.

[Bee Sweet]

Thank-you for your kindness! My adult children will not let their babies have all the vaccines at once, and wait until they are older to get any of them.

We've had no problems. Watching what happened to our Grandson, living in the real world of vaccine injury, gives one a whole new perspective.

[BlueDreams]

 MMR antibodies are significantly higher in autistic children as compared in typical children, hence the  role in autism. My grandson's MMR antibodies are off the charts, supporting the possibility of its increase in autism is something that cannot be overlooked. AMEN to that!

 

MMR vaccination is known to increase the risk of autism via an autoimmune disorder. I will say no more, seeing is believing.

.....or that he has an autimmune disease that inflated something that would have been harmless without it....or something else entirely. Again, one case is not enough (nor would I say amen! with cheery faces just because I think so....whatever the cause your grandson still has sever ASD and that's terrible). 

 

Also CFR on the claim you made about MMR vaccs and autism through an autoimmune disorder. I could not find such as thing. I found several articles (Like this one) that noted a connection to autoimmune disorders (particularly with inflammatory disorders such as asthma and celiac disease) and autism. And I found some that refuted said claims of MMR being connected to ASD, even in families where ASD was diagnosed in an earlier child. But nothing to what you're stating. 

 

Also, to note, research could not  indicate a causal relationship between MMR and autism via and autoimmune disorder. I'm saying that because research of this sort can only be correlative even if it were true. Because it's coorelative, it could also be a number of other related factors that MMR happens to either be in the mix or just happen to be there around the time those other factors kicked in.Even if what you mentioned is true, the culprit isn't the MMR, it's the autoimmune disorder....which the vast majority of people probably won't have. Meanwhile anyone can get measles and the effects of measles very much can be devastating/dangerous....which again, is another reason I said the people with vaccinations are going too far. Even IF (big if) all that is stated in the camp - research wise - is true, the majority of humanity will not have these problems. Meanwhile a larger group will have probs with things like Measles. It's replacing a very limited risk for one that is far more expansive.

 

With luv,

BD

[saemo]

RE: autoimmune, there is celiac in my family and while it is one of those "new" diagnosis type of disease, we have family history going back three generations of people with the symptoms, just ascribed to having a delicate stomach, or some such thing.

Edited October 18, 2015 by saemo

[saemo]

Thank-you for your kindness! My adult children will not let their babies have all the vaccines at once, and wait until they are older to get any of them.

We've had no problems. Watching what happened to our Grandson, living in the real world of vaccine injury, gives one a whole new perspective.

Genetics can be a sort of, Russian roulette. Logically, if the vaccine triggers a disordered autoimmune response, age wouldn't matter. Edited October 18, 2015 by saemo

[thesometimesaint]

Is that the best you could do with what I said? Try again to take what I said in good faith.

Someone claiming to know something based on testimony from God can really be a valid claim, at least sometimes, you very well know.

What all of us need is a way to know things from what God is willing to teach us if we ask in good faith.

And yes that means that it is at least possible that God could give you adequate knowledge to do good work in open art surgery even if you hadn't previously learned anything at all about medicine.

 

I always take you in good faith. You seem to be an honest good-natured person to me.  What I don't know could fill oceans, but what I do know I do know.

 

In this old world claiming knowledge FROM God has been used by Saints and Sinners alike to disastrous results.

 

Trust in God, but keep your hands on the steering wheel applies to more than just driving a car.

 

:shok:

[ERayR]

.....or that he has an autimmune disease that inflated something that would have been harmless without it....or something else entirely. Again, one case is not enough (nor would I say amen! with cheery faces just because I think so....whatever the cause your grandson still has sever ASD and that's terrible). 

 

Also CFR on the claim you made about MMR vaccs and autism through an autoimmune disorder. I could not find such as thing. I found several articles (Like this one) that noted a connection to autoimmune disorders (particularly with inflammatory disorders such as asthma and celiac disease) and autism. And I found some that refuted said claims of MMR being connected to ASD, even in families where ASD was diagnosed in an earlier child. But nothing to what you're stating. 

 

Also, to note, research could not  indicate a causal relationship between MMR and autism via and autoimmune disorder. I'm saying that because research of this sort can only be correlative even if it were true. Because it's coorelative, it could also be a number of other related factors that MMR happens to either be in the mix or just happen to be there around the time those other factors kicked in.Even if what you mentioned is true, the culprit isn't the MMR, it's the autoimmune disorder....which the vast majority of people probably won't have. Meanwhile anyone can get measles and the effects of measles very much can be devastating/dangerous....which again, is another reason I said the people with vaccinations are going too far. Even IF (big if) all that is stated in the camp - research wise - is true, the majority of humanity will not have these problems. Meanwhile a larger group will have probs with things like Measles. It's replacing a very limited risk for one that is far more expansive.

 

With luv,

BD

 

But tell that to a person whose child was harmed by a vaccination that was mandatory to get the child in school.

[BlueDreams]

But tell that to a person whose child was harmed by a vaccination that was mandatory to get the child in school.

 

luckily the likelihood of me ever  meeting this person is slim to none. They're extremely rare. 

 

Plus, this woman does a good job covering this topic.

[Rain2]

You are awfully sure of yourself. Alternative medicine can and does work, look up what our ancestors knew about healing themselves.

Sometimes the most incompetent people are those who you say know more than we do. Most times, being admitted into a hospital is one of the most dangerous places you can be. C-diff, staff infection etc., are risks you take.

Someone mentioned vaccines, those who go overboard. This government, the FDA and CDC have poisoned our children. They have since taken mercury out of vaccines except for the flu shot. I don't want to deter the thread, but I'm going

to anyway. My Grandson was saying a few words and a normal little boy at 18 months. My daughter took him for his vaccines, ( the MMR is most dangerous) while I watched her older children. That night he was very sick, the injection site

was swollen and inflamed. He was never the same. His eyes were blank and he has never spoken again. There are nine children in her neighborhood, the same age as my grandson who have Autism. This little boy is so severe he spent a year

in the Texas neuro re-hab center in Austin. He is ten years old now, non-verbal, not potty trained, with the medical field not sure of how to treat them. The re-hab center overflowed with children who were on the Autism spectrum.

How many times do they tell us something is safe, these experts and researchers who know so much, only to damage people with their expertise. The cover-up continues. If anyone thinks that a government as corrupt as ours doesn't cover

up what has happened to our children, then I feel sorry for you. It is criminal and will come to light someday.

I'm really sorry all of you are going through this. I can't imagine how tough it is.

Have you looked at what was going on in his neighborhood that ties the 9 autistic kids together besides vaccinations? That seems like an awfully high rate for one neighborhood. Just thinking of one of my college classes where I studied finding the cause of the spread of diseases this sounds like a good neighborhood to look at. Not trying to make him just another number, but if they could learn about the links between the kids it could stop others from getting it.

[Calm]

There has been a link believed to be found between exposure to a certain type of pollution during pregnancy and autism:

https://www.autismspeaks.org/science/science-news/largest-ever-study-autism-pollution-shows-strong-link-during-pregnancy

This could explain why Utah has high numbers, SL Valley having the problem with smog getting trapped there.

[Meadowchik]

There has been a link believed to be found between exposure to a certain type of pollution during pregnancy and autism:

https://www.autismspeaks.org/science/science-news/largest-ever-study-autism-pollution-shows-strong-link-during-pregnancy

This could explain why Utah has high numbers, SL Valley having the problem with smog getting trapped there.

I suspect that eventually we will find "autism" to be an inadequate term. I think it's likely to represent a spectrum of symptoms rather than a universal cause. Take ACC for example, agenesis of the corpus callosum, a deficiency of neuro connections between the right and left hemispheres of the brain. The percentage of those with ACC and also autism is higher than normal, up to 33 percent.

Since there are those with autism but not ACC, it seems quite probable to me that there are more than one disorder umbrella-ed by the term, making causes harder to pin down. Or there really are many causes resulting in a range of issues we call autism.

[Calm]

From the article:

“It’s important to remember that not all mothers exposed to air pollution during pregnancy will have a child with autism and not all children with autism were necessarily exposed to air pollution in utero,” comments epidemiologist Michael Rosanoff, Autism Speaks associate director for public health. (Rosanoff was not directly involved in the study.) “We know autism is a complex disorder and underlying genetic and biological factors interact to influence susceptibility,” he says. “The next step is to identify the biological mechanisms that connect air pollution to autism and identify ways to treat if not prevent the harm to brain development.”

[Stargazer]

From the article:

“It’s important to remember that not all mothers exposed to air pollution during pregnancy will have a child with autism and not all children with autism were necessarily exposed to air pollution in utero,” comments epidemiologist Michael Rosanoff, Autism Speaks associate director for public health. (Rosanoff was not directly involved in the study.) “We know autism is a complex disorder and underlying genetic and biological factors interact to influence susceptibility,” he says. “The next step is to identify the biological mechanisms that connect air pollution to autism and identify ways to treat if not prevent the harm to brain development.”

Autism might be found to be connected to the modern Western diet, and not just to pollution. We're eating things nowadays that nobody in history ever ate, and I think it is unwise to think that this will have no effects. Some of our common foods are so highly processed and "enhanced" with additives that have never been in the human diet, that a thoughtful person might hesitate to call some of it "food". There seems to be a time correlation, for with the new diet that has become common since WW2 we have also seen more cases of diabetes and some other formerly rarer conditions.

[thesometimesaint]

Autism might be found to be connected to the modern Western diet, and not just to pollution. We're eating things nowadays that nobody in history ever ate, and I think it is unwise to think that this will have no effects. Some of our common foods are so highly processed and "enhanced" with additives that have never been in the human diet, that a thoughtful person might hesitate to call some of it "food". There seems to be a time correlation, for with the new diet that has become common since WW2 we have also seen more cases of diabetes and some other formerly rarer conditions.

 

While correlation is not causation that does warrant further study.

[Calm]

RE: autoimmune, there is celiac in my family and while it is one of those "new" diagnosis type of disease, we have family history going back three generations of people with the symptoms, just ascribed to having a delicate stomach, or some such thing.

 

Just a side note your comment made me think of...like celiac disease, Restless Legs Syndrome/Willis-Ekbom Disorder is a "new" diagnosis as it became discussed widely starting in the mid90s more or less, though there are some doctors still making patients' lives hell by screwing up or refusing the proper drug treatment, due to ignorance or fear.  It can have a genetic variation (60%) and in my case goes back at least three generations as well, though it was misdiagnosised as usually anxiety, depression or hypochondriasm or in kids, "growing pains", ADHD (when that became popular) or just ignored.  

 

However, there is a very clear medical description back in the 1600's:

 

"Wherefore to some, when being abed they betake themselves to sleep, presently in the arms and legs, leapings and contractions on the tendons, and so great a restlessness and tossings of other members ensue, that the diseased are no more able to sleep, than if they were in a place of the greatest torture."

 

And it got officially diagnosed in 1945, but still ignored till the 1980s and then finally got noticed by most doctors in the late 90s, but was still not being taken seriously by many even by 2000.   And people were mocking it as a fake disease created by pharmacy companies. I'd had to educate all of my doctors (who were willing, some treated me like I was a drug addict suddenly) up to 2003, at that point I found some good ones...save for a year when one moved and stuck me with another who wouldn't listen, but after a year of enduring trying out a dozen or so different drugs causing projectile vomiting, feeling like my limbs had died, having to walk around with canes, anything but the ones that work without side effects, I talked myself into being taken on by a doctor who would listen (it is so weird to me that doctors won't criticize their own for putting their patients through hell if they are considered experts); however my dad's GP had him on 8 times the highest recommended dosage when he died last year...which resulted in making the disorder tons worse due to aggravation and probably contributed to his death because of very low quality and amount of sleep as well as making him almost impossible to live with due to how it affected his memory, ability to communicate and interact as it was causing significant depression and obsessive behaviours).  

 

Given that the estimates for how many are affected by RLS are up to 15% of the population with around 3% identified as severe, I find it remarkable that so few labeled experts were aware of it so late...and are still getting it wrong given the warnings being given out by the actual experts.  It was labeled as the most common movement disorder about 5 years after it got noticed.  Demonstrates there is still much the medical establishment is unaware of and specialists can screw things up just like GPs.

 

I can understand why people turn to alternative health practices, especially if they've gone for years where medical treatment has made things worse or it has done nothing for them or their family or friends.  Unfortunately, people need to be as skeptical about the alternative health practices and educate themselves about placebos and what is credible research.  (I am all for placebos if they are actually working---the body can at times heal itself and placebos can help in this area---and are not too costly or causing side effects of their own, but they also made not yield an accurate picture of what is going on as people may feel better, but not really be getting better).

 

The experience with RLS definitely taught me I had to become my own expert to protect myself from experts who thought they knew everything necessary when they didn't and tried to dictate to me what I should accept no matter how sick it made me.  However, without the actual experts and researchers...don't know where I would be at this point.  Prior to me tracking down the info on RLS posted on the internet by the doctors and researchers, I was getting less than an hour's sleep a day in the middle of the day and literally throwing myself out of bed at the end of it, the level of severity having been hyped up by being given the worst possible drug treatment off and on for two decades (and then made worse imo for the next 5 years by being given drugs that just took the edge off, but in the long term made it worse until I got to a doctor that was willing to take a risk with trusting me and my own experience...working very hard to help my kids avoid that path, any hint of a drug making things worse, we are complaining to the doctors and changing them if they don't take us seriously).

 

So hooking this back into the original topic, I see knowledge as a process and to perfect our own knowledge, we must use both experts and researchers to learn new possibilities but also our own experiences to measure the value of that new knowledge in our lives.  Even the experts and researchers are not expert in everything.  Their advice may turn out to be detrimental as opposed to positive growth if the information is wrong or just isn't personally applicable.  Researching their advice is not a waste of time even if it turns out it is right, because when we are certain we are on the right course for ourselves and not just dependant on others' input/advice/testimonies, we will be more fully committed in our hearts and minds.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Calm

[ERayR]

Just a side note your comment made me think of...like celiac disease, Restless Legs Syndrome/Willis-Ekbom Disorder is a "new" diagnosis as it became discussed widely starting in the mid90s more or less, though there are some doctors still making patients' lives hell by screwing up or refusing the proper drug treatment, due to ignorance or fear.  It can have a genetic variation (60%) and in my case goes back at least three generations as well, though it was misdiagnosised as usually anxiety, depression or hypochondriasm or in kids, "growing pains", ADHD (when that became popular) or just ignored.  

 

However, there is a very clear medical description back in the 1600's:

 

"Wherefore to some, when being abed they betake themselves to sleep, presently in the arms and legs, leapings and contractions on the tendons, and so great a restlessness and tossings of other members ensue, that the diseased are no more able to sleep, than if they were in a place of the greatest torture."

 

And it got officially diagnosed in 1945, but still ignored till the 1980s and then finally got noticed by most doctors in the late 90s, but was still not being taken seriously by many even by 2000.   And people were mocking it as a fake disease created by pharmacy companies. I'd had to educate all of my doctors (who were willing, some treated me like I was a drug addict suddenly) up to 2003, at that point I found some good ones...save for a year when one moved and stuck me with another who wouldn't listen, but after a year of enduring trying out a dozen or so different drugs causing projectile vomiting, feeling like my limbs had died, having to walk around with canes, anything but the ones that work without side effects, I talked myself into being taken on by a doctor who would listen (it is so weird to me that doctors won't criticize their own for putting their patients through hell if they are considered experts); however my dad's GP had him on 8 times the highest recommended dosage when he died last year...which resulted in making the disorder tons worse due to aggravation and probably contributed to his death because of very low quality and amount of sleep as well as making him almost impossible to live with due to how it affected his memory, ability to communicate and interact as it was causing significant depression and obsessive behaviours).  

 

Given that the estimates for how many are affected by RLS are up to 15% of the population with around 3% identified as severe, I find it remarkable that so few labeled experts were aware of it so late...and are still getting it wrong given the warnings being given out by the actual experts.  It was labeled as the most common movement disorder about 5 years after it got noticed.  Demonstrates there is still much the medical establishment is unaware of and specialists can screw things up just like GPs.

 

I can understand why people turn to alternative health practices, especially if they've gone for years where medical treatment has made things worse or it has done nothing for them or their family or friends.  Unfortunately, people need to be as skeptical about the alternative health practices and educate themselves about placebos and what is credible research.  (I am all for placebos if they are actually working---the body can at times heal itself and placebos can help in this area---and are not too costly or causing side effects of their own, but they also made not yield an accurate picture of what is going on as people may feel better, but not really be getting better).

 

The experience with RLS definitely taught me I had to become my own expert to protect myself from experts who thought they knew everything necessary when they didn't and tried to dictate to me what I should accept no matter how sick it made me.  However, without the actual experts and researchers...don't know where I would be at this point.  Prior to me tracking down the info on RLS posted on the internet by the doctors and researchers, I was getting less than an hour's sleep a day in the middle of the day and literally throwing myself out of bed at the end of it, the level of severity having been hyped up by being given the worst possible drug treatment off and on for two decades (and then made worse imo for the next 5 years by being given drugs that just took the edge off, but in the long term made it worse until I got to a doctor that was willing to take a risk with trusting me and my own experience...working very hard to help my kids avoid that path, any hint of a drug making things worse, we are complaining to the doctors and changing them if they don't take us seriously).

 

So hooking this back into the original topic, I see knowledge as a process and to perfect our own knowledge, we must use both experts and researchers to learn new possibilities but also our own experiences to measure the value of that new knowledge in our lives.  Even the experts and researchers are not expert in everything.  Their advice may turn out to be detrimental as opposed to positive growth if the information is wrong or just isn't personally applicable.  Researching their advice is not a waste of time even if it turns out it is right, because when we are certain we are on the right course for ourselves and not just dependant on others' input/advice/testimonies, we will be more fully committed in our hearts and minds.

 

It has been my experience that one should take an active role in  your own health problems and do as much research as you can(google is good) and be ready to discuss treatment options with your doctor.

[Calm]

I admit I wondered if Elder Utchdorf was a relatively healthy guy because his comment "I suppose I expected to discover truth of which my doctors were unaware...."
 
For a lot of chronic illnesses, doctors are unaware of the latest research in my experience or they don't bother to share with you the full information.   Last week I freaked out thinking I had screwed up my surgery and it turned out it was something that commonly happened at 6 weeks postop.  Luckily my brother in law the doctor had done the same surgery and had the answer for me when I couldn't get a response from the oncall doctor.  Of course the symptom showed up at 5:10 PM. They also get very little training from what I hear in nutrition.  And I have found doctors are often unaware of the more unusual side effects of drugs and even some common ones.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Calm