Article In Slt On Hofmann 30 Years Later

[ALarson]

I thought this was interesting to read through.  Thoughts?

 

http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/3062356-155/after-hofmann-forgeries-a-revolution-in

 

Today, Mormon forger and murderer Mark Hofmann likely would have a tougher time selling his fake documents — and his seriously skewed view of the origins of the LDS Church — than he did 30 years ago.

Hofmann preyed on the urge to hide unwelcome information so he could pass off counterfeits as real. Mormon officials, among others, fell right into his trap.

Back in October 1985, when Hofmann killed two people with homemade pipe bombs in an attempt to divert attention from his double-dealing and dishonesty, the Utah-based church restricted access to its historic archives and promoted only a canonized — some would say narrow — view of the faith's founding.

No more.

[thesometimesaint]

I thought this was interesting to read through.  Thoughts?

 

http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/3062356-155/after-hofmann-forgeries-a-revolution-in

 

That the Salt Lake Trib has a skewed view of the events, Church history, and the Church efforts to identify and preserve early Church documents.

[ALarson]

That the Salt Lake Trib has a skewed view of the events, Church history, and the Church efforts to identify and preserve early Church documents.

I think it raises some interesting questions.  One is:

 

Could Hofmann fool the church leaders and the members today like he did (or almost did) 30 years ago?  

[Sleeper Cell]

I thought this was interesting to read through.  Thoughts?

 

http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/3062356-155/after-hofmann-forgeries-a-revolution-in

 

If memory serves, the contents of many of these documents had already been published prior to their sale to the Church or were published shortly afterwards.  If I were going to spend a lot of money to buy up documents in order to hide their contents,  I would have, at least, made sure the local newspapers hadn’t already spilled the beans.  And if I kept buying documents from Hoffman in order to keep the contents secret, only to see them in the paper a few days later I would stop buying Hoffman documents.  

 

Arguably, one of the documents potentially most damaging to the LDS Church’s truth claims (next to the Salamander letter, itself)  may have been the “Joseph Smith III Blessing” which gave strong support to the historical RLDS claims that JS III, not BY, was the legitimate successor to Joseph Smith.  If the LDS church bought that document in order to hide it, why did it promptly trade it to the RLDS Church?  

Edited October 14, 2015 by Sleeper Cell

[Scott Lloyd]

I think it raises some interesting questions.  One is:

 

Could Hofmann fool the church leaders and the members today like he did (or almost did) 30 years ago?  

Based on interviews I have had with directors and personnel in the Church History Department. I would say no.

 

In doing stories on the Joseph Smith Papers, I asked a question along that line. I was told there are controls in place today that would preclude the shenanigans that Hofmann engaged in.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[ERayR]

I think it raises some interesting questions.  One is:

 

Could Hofmann fool the church leaders and the members today like he did (or almost did) 30 years ago?  

 

You mean knowing what they know today or if they hadn't already gone through this experience before?

[Kenngo1969]

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/10/recent-events-involving-church-history-and-forged-documents?lang=eng

 

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1268963.Victims

[Kenngo1969]

... Could Hofmann fool the church leaders and the members today like he did (or almost did) 30 years ago?  

 

 

Based on interviews I have had with directors and personnel in the Church History Department. I would say no.

 

 

I don't know what the people you've spoken to have told you, Scott, but I think you concede too much.  Did Hoffmann fool leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?  (Historians, of course, are a separate category.)  I'm certainly open to correction, but all of the public pronouncements of leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ regarding documents later revealed to be Hoffmann forgeries included the caveat, "If they're genuine ..."

[Scott Lloyd]

 

 

I don't know what the people you've spoken to have told you, Scott, but I think you concede too much.  Did Hoffmann fool leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?  (Historians, of course, are a separate category.)  I'm certainly open to correction, but all of the public pronouncements of leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ regarding documents later revealed to be Hoffmann forgeries included the caveat, "If they're genuine ..."

Didn't mean to concede that. I recognize the Brethren were very careful not to accept the genuineness of Hofmann's products.

 

What I meant was that with today's controls in place, it's not as difficult to detect a forgery as it may have been earlier.

 

And it was scholars and historians I spoke to in my interviews, not Church leaders (except for Elder Jensen).

[Storm Rider]

Yes, Hoffman fooled a number of leaders at very high levels.  This was a very poor episode in our history.  One of the saddest histories I ever read about.  

[Thinking]

One interesting thing about this whole story is that some of the forgeries themselves have become collector's items.

[theplains]

In doing stories on the Joseph Smith Papers, I asked a question along that line. I was told there are controls in place today that would preclude the shenanigans that Hofmann engaged in.

 

The SLT article mentioned the term "fake documents".  Did the LDS Church have any ability in

the past to defend against this?  If no, when did these controls that you mention come into place

and by whom?

 

Thanks,

Jim

[ERayR]

Yes, Hoffman fooled a number of leaders at very high levels.  This was a very poor episode in our history.  One of the saddest histories I ever read about.  

 

Why?

[Kenngo1969]

Yes, Hoffman fooled a number of leaders at very high levels.  This was a very poor episode in our history.  One of the saddest histories I ever read about.  

No disrespect, but did you read either of the links I provided earlier (or the book referenced in the second of those two links)?  Can you refute my contention that public statements of leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints invariably included the caveat, "If they're genuine ..."?  Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?  Can you, at least, name the leaders to whom you're referring?

[Storm Rider]

Why?

 

It has been many years since I studied this topic.  Hoffman did some terrible things in order to gain both fame and fortune.  The problem was that several of his documents were viewed as damaging to early leaders of the Restoration.  Though they were fakes, leaders of the Church conspired through third parties to acquire these documents in order to keep them from public view.  The intent was to protect the Church.  My issue was that because they wanted to keep these documents private they operated in fear and did things there was no need to do.  

 

Some of the leaders did not look good by their own actions.  I wish they would have had more faith in the membership and in the truthfulness of the Restoration.  They were more focused on optics, public perceptions than truth.  They lived and they learned by the experience. 

[omni]

I don't know what the people you've spoken to have told you, Scott, but I think you concede too much. Did Hoffmann fool leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? (Historians, of course, are a separate category.) I'm certainly open to correction, but all of the public pronouncements of leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ regarding documents later revealed to be Hoffmann forgeries included the caveat, "If they're genuine ..."

I'm not aware of every public statement made from the brethren regarding the documents, but it would certainly be odd for them to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars aquiring them if they didn't have confidence in their authenticity. Edited October 15, 2015 by omni

[ERayR]

It has been many years since I studied this topic.  Hoffman did some terrible things in order to gain both fame and fortune.  The problem was that several of his documents were viewed as damaging to early leaders of the Restoration.  Though they were fakes, leaders of the Church conspired through third parties to acquire these documents in order to keep them from public view.  The intent was to protect the Church.  My issue was that because they wanted to keep these documents private they operated in fear and did things there was no need to do.  

 

Some of the leaders did not look good by their own actions.  I wish they would have had more faith in the membership and in the truthfulness of the Restoration.  They were more focused on optics, public perceptions than truth.  They lived and they learned by the experience. 

 

The worst that could come from it, IMNSHO, is that it proves Church leaders are fallible.

Edited October 15, 2015 by ERayR

[Storm Rider]

The books I read were "Mormon Murders" by Steven Naifeh and Gregory White Smith and "Salamander: The Story of the Mormon Forgery Murders" by Linda Stillitoe and Allen D. Roberts.  

 

Both books appeared to be very well researched with a load of documentation.  Gordon B. Hinckley was one of the leaders involved in working with third parties to acquire Hoffman documents.  Off the top of my head I cannot remember others.  

 

Both were fascinating reads.  Hoffman was a very sad individual who harmed a number of people, let alone his own family.  

[Storm Rider]

The worst that could come from it, IMNSHO, is that it proves Church leaders are fallible.

 

I just thought it is an unfortunate situation/experience for all involved.  These are humans doing very human things unaware that they were working with a crazy guy in Hoffman.  I am glad that it is in the past and I think everyone in the Church learned some valuable lessons.  

 

It never made me think any less of the individuals involved.  

[webbles]

It has been many years since I studied this topic.  Hoffman did some terrible things in order to gain both fame and fortune.  The problem was that several of his documents were viewed as damaging to early leaders of the Restoration.  Though they were fakes, leaders of the Church conspired through third parties to acquire these documents in order to keep them from public view.  The intent was to protect the Church.  My issue was that because they wanted to keep these documents private they operated in fear and did things there was no need to do.  

 

Some of the leaders did not look good by their own actions.  I wish they would have had more faith in the membership and in the truthfulness of the Restoration.  They were more focused on optics, public perceptions than truth.  They lived and they learned by the experience. 

 

Is the bolded part actually true or just an assumption?  Or could we also view the same events as the church attempting to collect the documents so that they don't get lost or damaged?  Is there any proof that the church was really trying to keep these documents private?

[Kenngo1969]

The books I read were "Mormon Murders" by Steven Naifeh and Gregory White Smith and "Salamander: The Story of the Mormon Forgery Murders" by Linda Stillitoe and Allen D. Roberts.  ...

 

 

I have not read the book, but you have misspelled the name of the first author of the second book.  It is Sillitoe.  I would strongly suggest, if-and-when you revisit the topic, that you read Turley's Victims.  While I have not read Mormon Murders or Salamander, I assert on information and belief that Turley's work does a better job of being fair to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and to its leaders than other books on the subject, which seem to have more of a sensationalistic bent.

[Bobbieaware]

It has been many years since I studied this topic. Hoffman did some terrible things in order to gain both fame and fortune. The problem was that several of his documents were viewed as damaging to early leaders of the Restoration. Though they were fakes, leaders of the Church conspired through third parties to acquire these documents in order to keep them from public view. The intent was to protect the Church. My issue was that because they wanted to keep these documents private they operated in fear and did things there was no need to do.

Some of the leaders did not look good by their own actions. I wish they would have had more faith in the membership and in the truthfulness of the Restoration. They were more focused on optics, public perceptions than truth. They lived and they learned by the experience.

These are all presumptions on your part. When the time is right, it will be very interesting to learn precisely why the leaders did what they did. In those days, during a session of General Conference, I clearly remember Gordon B Hinkley saying we (the Church) may never know if the Joseph Smith the 3rd document is authentic or not, and this suggests to me that there may have been real suspicions among the leaders that the document might not have been genuine and that they were being punked. And what exactly were the leaders hiding? I clearly remember reading transcripts of 'salamander letter,' the Joseph Smith the 3rd blessing, and the Lucy Mack Smith letter (all fakes) before Hofmann (the correct spelling) started his killing spree. I like to keep an open mind and give our leaders the benefit of the doubt. Therefore, I hold out the possibility that when all the facts are in it will be understood the leaders handled the situation in the best possible way.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Storm Rider]

I have not read the book, but you have misspelled the name of the first author of the second book.  It is Sillitoe.  I would strongly suggest, if-and-when you revisit the topic, that you read Turley's Victims.  While I have not read Mormon Murders or Salamander, I assert on information and belief that Turley's work does a better job of being fair to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and to its leaders than other books on the subject, which seem to have more of a sensationalistic bent.

 

I don't know any of the authors of the books I read.  I do know the first book has a reputation for being aggressively pessimistic about the Church.  I am aware that even when well researched topics are discussed an author can easily cause the tone of a book to dictate a positive or negative sense to a story.  I enjoy Turley and I am confident in his writing, but have not read his work on the topic.  

 

This is not a topic that holds a lot of interest for me, but should it spark my interest in the future I would be happy to read Turley's book.  I don't really know how you can make sensational murders even more sensational.  The events sort of speak for themselves.  

 

Sorry for the misspelling, but I am glad that you knew the correct spelling. 

[Storm Rider]

These are all presumptions on your part. When the time is right, it will be very interesting to learn precisely why the leaders did what they did. In those days, during a session of General Conference, I clearly remember Gordon B Hinkley saying we (the Church) may never know if the Joseph Smith the 3rd document is authentic or not, and this suggests to me that there may have been real suspicions among the leaders that the document might not have been genuine and that they were being punked. And what exactly were the leaders hiding? I clearly remember reading transcripts of 'salamander letter,' the Joseph Smith the 3rd blessing, and the Lucy Mack Smith letter (all fakes) before Hofmann (the correct spelling) started his killing spree. I like to keep an open mind and give our leaders the benefit of the doubt. Therefore, I hold out the possibility that when all the facts are in it will be understood the leaders handled the situation in the best possible way.

 

Bobbie, I suggest you buy either book and give it a gander.  Pay attention to the documentation provided.  What is absolutely clear is that regardless if the documents were doubted to be authentic, they were viewed strongly enough for the Church to encourage them to be acquired.  

 

I don't think I have been presumptive and I have not made any assumptions.  I was recounting from memory facts discussed about Hoffman's murders and how they evolved.  I was living in SLC at the time and the event was of interest to me.  

[Bobbieaware]

Bobbie, I suggest you buy either book and give it a gander.  Pay attention to the documentation provided.  What is absolutely clear is that regardless if the documents were doubted to be authentic, they were viewed strongly enough for the Church to encourage them to be acquired.  

 

I don't think I have been presumptive and I have not made any assumptions.  I was recounting from memory facts discussed about Hoffman's murders and how they evolved.  I was living in SLC at the time and the event was of interest to me.

Aside from buying the documents, did the leaders hold back the contents of any of the documents? And think of this: by buying the documents the leaders were able to hold for safekeeping and preserve important evidence in what would turn out to be the trial of a multiple murderer.