Scott Lloyd Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 In today's politically correct environment, when a person or a group of people take a stand for religious liberty, I think it is worth highlighting and applauding. Since we as Latter-day Saints are being encouraged to safeguard religious liberty, I see it as relevant to this board. A high school marching band in Mississippi was forbidden from performing a Christian hymn at a football game. In defiance, the crowd spontaneously began to sing the hymn. Read about it here. 1
Popular Post The Nehor Posted August 25, 2015 Popular Post Posted August 25, 2015 If one thing calls for Christian hymns it is young men beating the crap out of each other over an inflated pigskin. 5
Scott Lloyd Posted August 25, 2015 Author Posted August 25, 2015 If one thing calls for Christian hymns it is young men beating the crap out of each other over an inflated pigskin.At least it wasn't a boxing match. 2
strappinglad Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 At least it wasn't a boxing match. That would be hockey. 2
ALarson Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 In today's politically correct environment, when a person or a group of people take a stand for religious liberty, I think it is worth highlighting and applauding. Since we as Latter-day Saints are being encouraged to safeguard religious liberty, I see it as relevant to this board. A high school marching band in Mississippi was forbidden from performing a Christian hymn at a football game. In defiance, the crowd spontaneously began to sing the hymn. Read about it here.Cool story. One of my favorite hymns too ("How Great Thou Art"). 1
HappyJackWagon Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) Cool story. One of my favorite hymns too ("How Great Thou Art"). I love that hymn too. Doesn't seem all that fitting for a football game, though. People can choose to sing hymns if they choose, even if it's a little odd, but if they try to require others to sing with them, or have the hymns played as part of an official school function, then that crosses the line. It's somewhat similar to the issue of school prayer and lets not forget that a mormon family was at the center of bringing the lawsuit that put an end to school prayer at football games in Texas and then upheld by SCOTUS. I don't think that family was anti-prayer, but they didn't like a certain style of prayer being forced upon their children. They recognized there was a time and place for prayer, just like there may be a better time and place for a hymn like How Great Thou Art. http://www.mormonstoday.com/000625/N1SchoolPrayer02.shtml Edited August 25, 2015 by HappyJackWagon
Popular Post The Nehor Posted August 25, 2015 Popular Post Posted August 25, 2015 My favorite story of Christians fighting "religious repression" was being angry because the Christmas tree was called a holiday tree. So they interrupted a children's choir to sing "O Christmas Tree". So they decided to defend Christianity by interrupting children singing so as to defend a pagan icon by singing a wholly non-religious song? No wonder Christ refers to his followers as stupid sheep. 7
Scott Lloyd Posted August 25, 2015 Author Posted August 25, 2015 My favorite story of Christians fighting "religious repression" was being angry because the Christmas tree was called a holiday tree. So they interrupted a children's choir to sing "O Christmas Tree". So they decided to defend Christianity by interrupting children singing so as to defend a pagan icon by singing a wholly non-religious song? No wonder Christ refers to his followers as stupid sheep. Link?
The Nehor Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Link? http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/rhode-island-gov-lincoln-chafee-holiday-tree-remark-angers-thousands-roman-catholic-church-article-1.987823
Scott Lloyd Posted August 25, 2015 Author Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/rhode-island-gov-lincoln-chafee-holiday-tree-remark-angers-thousands-roman-catholic-church-article-1.987823It's unfortunate the children's choir got caught in the crossfire, but I think the citizens had a point. Calling it a "holiday tree" is an example of secularism run amok. It sounds like it was a rather highly charged controversial atmosphere, perhaps not the best circumstance under which to involve a choir of children. As for the Christmas tree being a "pagan icon," I daresay relatively few people today view it as such. Borrowing and adapting traditions and rituals is a phenomenon that has been going on for centuries. Edited August 25, 2015 by Scott Lloyd 1
Scott Lloyd Posted August 25, 2015 Author Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) I love that hymn too. Doesn't seem all that fitting for a football game, though. People can choose to sing hymns if they choose, even if it's a little odd, but if they try to require others to sing with them, or have the hymns played as part of an official school function, then that crosses the line. It's somewhat similar to the issue of school prayer and lets not forget that a mormon family was at the center of bringing the lawsuit that put an end to school prayer at football games in Texas and then upheld by SCOTUS. I don't think that family was anti-prayer, but they didn't like a certain style of prayer being forced upon their children. They recognized there was a time and place for prayer, just like there may be a better time and place for a hymn like How Great Thou Art. http://www.mormonstoday.com/000625/N1SchoolPrayer02.shtmlSounds to me like it was more than "a certain style of prayer being forced upon their children." If that's all it was, I would not think it worth making a court case over it. Rather, it seems from the news report that this was symptomatic of an overall environment of harassment and persecution. As for there being "a better time and place for a hymn," I'm not one to insist on the compartmentalization of religious devotion. I watched the video, and the performance of it by the crowd did not seem in the least inappropriate to me. In fact, it was surprisingly melodious, considering the spontaneous nature of the incident. Edited August 25, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
The Nehor Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 It's unfortunate the children's choir got caught in the crossfire, but I think the citizens had a point. Calling it a "holiday tree" is an example of secularism run amok. As for the Christmas tree being a "pagan icon," I daresay relatively few people today view it as such. Borrowing and adapting traditions and rituals is a phenomenon that has been going on for centuries. It just seems like the most petty and worthless cause anyone could devote themselves to.
The Nehor Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 In fact, it was surprisingly melodious, considering the spontaneous nature of the incident. Oh, I really doubt it was spontaneous.
Stargazer Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 My favorite story of Christians fighting "religious repression" was being angry because the Christmas tree was called a holiday tree. So they interrupted a children's choir to sing "O Christmas Tree". So they decided to defend Christianity by interrupting children singing so as to defend a pagan icon by singing a wholly non-religious song? No wonder Christ refers to his followers as stupid sheep. Except for the fact that the Christmas Tree is not a pagan symbol. It was introduced more than a thousand years after Christianity conquered Europe. The custom of the Christmas tree developed in early modern Germany (where it is today called Weihnachtsbaum or Christbaum or "Tannenbaum") with predecessors that can be traced to the 16th and possibly 15th century, in which devout Christians brought decorated trees into their homes. It acquired popularity beyond Germany during the second half of the 19th century, at first among the upper classes.
Scott Lloyd Posted August 25, 2015 Author Posted August 25, 2015 It just seems like the most petty and worthless cause anyone could devote themselves to.Oh, I can conceive of quite a few others that exceed it.
Stargazer Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 It just seems like the most petty and worthless cause anyone could devote themselves to. Who cares about the Christmas Tree, anyway? I'm not a fan. But not having a Christmas tree is sacrilege to my wife! 1
The Nehor Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Except for the fact that the Christmas Tree is not a pagan symbol. It was introduced more than a thousand years after Christianity conquered Europe. But probably evolved from winter solstice celebrations and the honoring of evergreen trees as a symbol.
The Nehor Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Oh, I can conceive of quite a few others that exceed it. If you talk like that about my plans for Snow Cone Fridays at work I will cut you.
Scott Lloyd Posted August 25, 2015 Author Posted August 25, 2015 Oh, I really doubt it was spontaneous.I'm only going by what was written in the report. After one fan started singing the hymn, other crowd members joined in. And within minutes, all the fans in the stands were drawn together in song, which you can see in the video below. You're saying it was like a flash mob? That could have been, I suppose. Doesn't make a whole lot of difference either way.
Scott Lloyd Posted August 25, 2015 Author Posted August 25, 2015 If you talk like that about my plans for Snow Cone Fridays at work I will cut you. Sounds like a great idea. I'll actually help you start a movement.
Analytics Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 In today's politically correct environment, when a person or a group of people take a stand for religious liberty, I think it is worth highlighting and applauding. Since we as Latter-day Saints are being encouraged to safeguard religious liberty, I see it as relevant to this board. A high school marching band in Mississippi was forbidden from performing a Christian hymn at a football game. In defiance, the crowd spontaneously began to sing the hymn. Read about it here. By framing the issue as one of "religious liberty", you concede that a band playing "How Great Thou Art" is inherently religious. Public schools shouldn't be in the business in the business of leading a religious exercise. Thinking that freedom of religion can best be maintained by separating state and religion doesn't mean you are against the freedom of religion--just the opposite. In any case, the public spontaneously singing a song doesn't somehow "defy" the court order. The court order was that the public school couldn't lead the song--not that people couldn't sing it or that it couldn't be heard. 4
Scott Lloyd Posted August 25, 2015 Author Posted August 25, 2015 By framing the issue as one of "religious liberty", you concede that a band playing "How Great Thou Art" is inherently religious. Public schools shouldn't be in the business in the business of leading a religious exercise. Thinking that freedom of religion can best be maintained by separating state and religion doesn't mean you are against the freedom of religion--just the opposite. Forbidding any mention of religion or any form of religious expression by default favors a secularist stance. That's not fair either. I would be more in favor of tolerance and pluralism than heavy-handed state control. In any case, the public spontaneously singing a song doesn't somehow "defy" the court order. The court order was that the public school couldn't lead the song--not that people couldn't sing it or that it couldn't be heard. It defied the intent of those who pursued the court order, which was to eliminate any religious expression from the public event. 1
Popular Post Walden Posted August 25, 2015 Popular Post Posted August 25, 2015 Forbidding any mention of religion or any form of religious expression by default favors a secularist stance. That's not fair either. I would be more in favor of tolerance and pluralism than heavy-handed state control. It defied the intent of those who pursued the court order, which was to eliminate any religious expression from the public event.You are incorrect on both accounts. What is forbidden is a public school actively promoting religion. If students want to discuss religion on their own, they can do so. Heck, at a high-school here in my community in California, a group of Christian students meet each morning at the flagpole for a prayer before the start of their day. Nobody is compelled to attend, nor is the event sponsored by the school, and therefore it is not an issue. Likewise, the "intent" was not to "eliminate religious expression from the public event." The intent was to ensure that the school is not put into a position in which it is promoting one religion over another. What you call "heavy-handed state control" is actually just the opposite....state-control would be having public schools promoting the state-accepted religion. I wonder how Christians might feel if a Muslim song was played that praised Allah at the football game....you think many in the crowd would be as "tolerant"? 6
Scott Lloyd Posted August 25, 2015 Author Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) You are incorrect on both accounts. What is forbidden is a public school actively promoting religion. If students want to discuss religion on their own, they can do so. Heck, at a high-school here in my community in California, a group of Christian students meet each morning at the flagpole for a prayer before the start of their day. Nobody is compelled to attend, nor is the event sponsored by the school, and therefore it is not an issue. Likewise, the "intent" was not to "eliminate religious expression from the public event." The intent was to ensure that the school is not put into a position in which it is promoting one religion over another. What you call "heavy-handed state control" is actually just the opposite....state-control would be having public schools promoting the state-accepted religion. I wonder how Christians might feel if a Muslim song was played that praised Allah at the football game....you think many in the crowd would be as "tolerant"?Wouldn't bother me. Should it? Do you know what Allah means in Arabic? It means God. Suppose several of the students from the high school, perhaps including some members of the marching band, got together on their own time off school premises and rehearsed the hymn, then brought their instruments to the game and, at a specific time, performed the hymn. Would this have been acceptable? Why or why not? Edited August 26, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
rongo Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) I had Courtney Leishman (former girls basketball coach at BYU) for a coaching class at BYU. He told us that on a recruiting trip to Texas, both teams met at mid-court for a pre-game prayer. He turned to his host and asked how they dared do that, with the ACLU and all that. His host said, "We're Southern Baptists. We don't give a d*** about the ACLU." We Mormons, in our desire to avoid confrontation and bad PR, would never dream of reacting like that. Edited August 25, 2015 by rongo
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