Football Fans Defy Court Order Against Marching Band, Sing Christian Hymn

[HappyJackWagon]

Playing a traditional Swedish melody (what the tune of How Great Thou Art is based on) is not promoting religious practice.  

Because everyone knows traditional Swedish melodies.

 

Nice try, Kevin, but I think you realize what you're saying is BS

The song was chosen because it is religious, not because it's Swedish.

[KevinG]

Because everyone knows traditional Swedish melodies.

 

Nice try, Kevin, but I think you realize what you're saying is BS

The song was chosen because it is religious, not because it's Swedish.

 

Because everyone knows traditional Swedish melodies.

 

Nice try, Kevin, but I think you realize what you're saying is BS

The song was chosen because it is religious, not because it's Swedish.

 

Almost everything written by Bach and Handel has religious text too.  Do you suggest we disallow schools to play that literature because of its origins.

 

Bands routinely practice and warm up with chorales to train their ears and intonation.  Is that establishment of religion?

 

If you really want to get offended by the traditional Swedish melody used for Hot Great Thou Art (which loses its religious significance without the words, i.e. "as played by marching band") then get bent out of shape because it is also the melodic and rhythmic pattern used in the Horst Wessel Lied - the Nazi National Anthem from 1930-1945.  

 

I am of the opinion that if the band director was worth his salt he would put the music back in the program after having all the students cross out "How Great Thou Art" on their music and write in "Traditional Swedish Melody".  Problem solved!

Edited August 26, 2015 by KevinG

[Calm]

Back in the 1970s when my High School Chorus director received complaints about religious songs during our Christmas/Holiday concert she purchased the same tunes in Latin for the next year.  There were no more complaints.  Heh.

In Canada the English choir of my daughter's school had to be very careful not to include any song with religious implications. There was discussion over a Disney song from the movie about Moses even, as generic as that was. I think it was decided it was political, not religious so that was okay. Wasn't terribly impressed by the quality of the songs chosen as pop songs don't tend to be very challenging or inspiring.

When the French speaking choir came on, the performance quality skyrocketed. Of course, they were singing sacred Christian hymns one right after another. Apparently religion couldn't be discussed in the school only if it was in English. I didn't care as the night was much more enjoyable. Christmas hymns in children's voices can be stunning.

[ERayR]

I wonder how Christians might feel if a Muslim song was played that praised Allah at the football game....you think many in the crowd would be as "tolerant"?

 

For me not a problem.  I think it great for everybody to realize there is something bigger and more glorious than themselves looking over things.

[thesometimesaint]

Like secular humanism?

 

Something to remember about this event.  The parents and students spontaneously decided to sing that hymn.  The expression was neither school sponsored or led.

 

The First Amendment of the Constitution (Bill of Rights) states:

 

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

 

It seems to me that the parents and students exercised their freedom of speech and freedom of peaceably assembling without needing the school (Government) to establish a religion or religious practices.

 

Secular humanism isn't a religion, anymore than Arabic is a religion.

SEE http://crooksandliars.com/2015/08/dumber-bean-dip

 

There is nothing illegal about doing that.Though I do doubt the wisdom in turning a secular event into a religious one. 

 

We limit the "Free exercise there of" all the time, and for good reason. My free exercise of my religion can't override your free exercise of your religion, or violate the law. IE; I can't use my freedom of religion to not pay my taxes.

 

As I said: There is nothing illegal about doing that.Though I do doubt the wisdom in turning a secular event into a religious one. 

[KevinG]

Secular humanism isn't a religion, anymore than Arabic is a religion.

SEE http://crooksandliars.com/2015/08/dumber-bean-dip

 

There is nothing illegal about doing that.Though I do doubt the wisdom in turning a secular event into a religious one. 

 

We limit the "Free exercise there of" all the time, and for good reason. My free exercise of my religion can't override your free exercise of your religion, or violate the law. IE; I can't use my freedom of religion to not pay my taxes.

 

As I said: There is nothing illegal about doing that.Though I do doubt the wisdom in turning a secular event into a religious one. 

 

 Limiting parent and student spontanious singing of a hymn would not be consistent with freedom of religion or freedom of assembly.

 

That would be freedom from religion.

 

The whole incident is patently ridiculous.   The tune of How Great Thou Art played by 76 trombones is no more religious than performing Ralph Vaughan Williams "Variants on Dives and Lazarus" with an orchestra is promoting the Mormon beliefs about Kolob.  (Points to anyone who understands the reference).

[Walden]

For me not a problem.  I think it great for everybody to realize there is something bigger and more glorious than themselves looking over things.

Again, there is an exception to every rule, but my instinct tells me that if Muslim odes to Allah were sung at a football game in Mississippi (locale of the story), there might be some people in the crowd who take offense and would certainly bring up the issue to administrators, school boards, etc., and that the practice would be subsequently halted so that the school was not viewed as promoting the Muslim faith.

 

And so it should be with Christianity, Buddhism, Satanism, etc.

[KevinG]

Again, there is an exception to every rule, but my instinct tells me that if Muslim odes to Allah were sung at a football game in Mississippi (locale of the story), there might be some people in the crowd who take offense and would certainly bring up the issue to administrators, school boards, etc., and that the practice would be subsequently halted so that the school was not viewed as promoting the Muslim faith.

 

And so it should be with Christianity, Buddhism, Satanism, etc.

 

Again, there is an exception to every rule, but my instinct tells me that if Muslim odes to Allah were sung at a football game in Mississippi (locale of the story), there might be some people in the crowd who take offense and would certainly bring up the issue to administrators, school boards, etc., and that the practice would be subsequently halted so that the school was not viewed as promoting the Muslim faith.

 

And so it should be with Christianity, Buddhism, Satanism, etc.

 

Then again if Islamic religious music at a football game happened in Dearborn, Michigan there would probably not be a protest.  Community standards used to be a thing.

[ERayR]

Again, there is an exception to every rule, but my instinct tells me that if Muslim odes to Allah were sung at a football game in Mississippi (locale of the story), there might be some people in the crowd who take offense and would certainly bring up the issue to administrators, school boards, etc., and that the practice would be subsequently halted so that the school was not viewed as promoting the Muslim faith.

 

And so it should be with Christianity, Buddhism, Satanism, etc.

 

Of course there would be some who would take offense.  The last time I looked there was nothing about being exempt from offense.

[KevinG]

I'm going to complain that this performance is promoting the Jedi religion.   

[The Nehor]

I'm going to complain that this performance is promoting the Jedi religion.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2P41RrZlTY

The Jedi are a philosophy and not a religion. An inconsistent philosophy:

"Only the Sith deal in absolutes." -Obiwan

As that is an absolute statement by definition he is also a Sith.

[KevinG]

The Jedi are a philosophy and not a religion. An inconsistent philosophy:

"Only the Sith deal in absolutes." -Obiwan

As that is an absolute statement by definition he is also a Sith.

 

They are a religion now... http://www.jedichurch.org/

[The Nehor]

They are a religion now... http://www.jedichurch.org/

In New Zealand. I am not sure if that counts.

[Walden]

Then again if Islamic religious music at a football game happened in Dearborn, Michigan there would probably not be a protest.  Community standards used to be a thing.

 

Yes, community standards also used to dictate who could live in which part of town, what color your skin had to be to attend the town school and all kind of outlandish standards. A community can be just as like-minded in their weaknesses and faults as they are in their strengths and virtues.

 

If we're just going to leave it up to "community standards", essentially a popularity contest, then just scrap the Constitution and let each community vote which rights they want to confer on which peoples, religions, etc.

[thesometimesaint]

 Limiting parent and student spontanious singing of a hymn would not be consistent with freedom of religion or freedom of assembly.

 

That would be freedom from religion.

 

The whole incident is patently ridiculous.   The tune of How Great Thou Art played by 76 trombones is no more religious than performing Ralph Vaughan Williams "Variants on Dives and Lazarus" with an orchestra is promoting the Mormon beliefs about Kolob.  (Points to anyone who understands the reference).

 

Again; There is nothing illegal about doing that. Though I do doubt the wisdom in turning a secular event into a religious one.

 

Without the freedom from religion it is impossible to have freedom of religion.

"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." Thomas Jefferson

Picking my pocket at a public football game to promote any religion is anathema to that idea.

 

I personally love Handel's "Messiah" and Beethoven's 9th "Ode to Joy". But neither one is appropriate at a public football game.

Edited August 26, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[KevinG]

Yes, community standards also used to dictate who could live in which part of town, what color your skin had to be to attend the town school and all kind of outlandish standards. A community can be just as like-minded in their weaknesses and faults as they are in their strengths and virtues.

 

If we're just going to leave it up to "community standards", essentially a popularity contest, then just scrap the Constitution and let each community vote which rights they want to confer on which peoples, religions, etc.

 

Ignoring the Godwin's Law Corollary and false equivalence you have engaged in comparing the singing of a hymn to racial segregation...

 

I would expect a Muslim dominated community would welcome the playing of Islamic inspired tunes by a school band, just as a Protestant community might welcome the playing of a Christian inspired (or in this case adapted) tune by a school band.  This is in no way establishment of religion by virtue of the use of those tunes as musical literature with cultural meaning to the audience.  Denying the school and community this opportunity is preventing free expression.

 

Can you seriously imagine someone argueing that using "Variants on Dives and Lazarus" by a public school in a predominantly LDS community would be the state establishing the Mormon religion?

 

[ERayR]

I personally love Handel's "Messiah" and Beethoven's 9th "Ode to Joy". But neither one is appropriate at a public football game.

 

But by your reasoning a city government sponsored orchestra would be forbidden to play these as part of a public performance.

[KevinG]

 

I personally love Handel's "Messiah" and Beethoven's 9th "Ode to Joy". But neither one is appropriate at a public football game.

 

I disagree.  This rocks (check it at the 2:00 mark)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqoCXfYNqIM

[Scott Lloyd]

Again; There is nothing illegal about doing that. Though I do doubt the wisdom in turning a secular event into a religious one.

 

Without the freedom from religion it is impossible to have freedom of religion.

"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." Thomas Jefferson

Picking my pocket at a public football game to promote any religion is anathema to that idea.

 

I personally love Handel's "Messiah" and Beethoven's 9th "Ode to Joy". But neither one is appropriate at a public football game.

Who appointed you lord of what is appropriate at a football game?

 

It used to be that school marching bands only played martial music in parades. For at least the past few generations, the selections have run the gamut of pop and theatrical music. Why not classical or devotional?

 

It's not just John Phillip Sousa anymore.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

If you have to use the power of the state to enforce your religion. What happens when the state no longer enforces your religion, but another one?

Who here is advocating using the power of the state to enforce one's religion?

 

Let's find him and beat him to a pulp, just like you are doing with this straw man.

[thesometimesaint]

But by your reasoning a city government sponsored orchestra would be forbidden to play these as part of a public performance.

 

If the city were to promote the event as a religious one. Then yes a reasonable argument could be made against such an event paid for by the city. As an event to praise the Christian God, most definitely even I would object. If billed as an night of Classical Music with selections from Handel, Beethoven, and others. No objection from me.

 

A football game, while it may be a religious experience for those that worship at the Church of the NFL, really isn't the same thing.

[Scott Lloyd]

Wow.  You really shouldn't make assumptions about other's political views.  You know what happens when you make assumptions.

 

Was I making assumptions about your political views? I was unaware of that.

 

I've now given you two examples of Satanists exerting their right to freedom of expression.  I could even mention that baphomet statue just put up on government property somewhere in the midwest.  That makes three.  

 

While I find the antics of professed satanists silly and bizarre, I have yet to feel threatened or imperiled by them. Can you suggest a reason why I should?

 

 

 

That you want to ignore these realities simply because they complicate your argument .... isn't really all that surprising.

 

You've not complicated my argument by anything you've presented. My stance is consistent: I support freedom of expression, including religious expression.

 

If your goal has been to complicate my argument, you have failed to reach it.

[KevinG]

Uh Oh!  That Purdue band is not only establishing Christianity they are also establishing Satanism!

 

Edited August 26, 2015 by KevinG

[Scott Lloyd]

CFR that that was their intent. 

 

I admit I was surmising that. I can't provide references for surmising.

 

 

Regarding your hypothetical, it would be totally constitutional for a group of kids of their own accord to publically sing or play any song they wanted to in public.

 

If it were a religious song, it would make a few people mad though, I bet, especially if they realized they were powerless to prevent it. I'm thinking of those who think they are the grand arbiters of "what is appropriate at a football game."

 

But I'm glad that, in this hypothetical at least, you recognize the legitimacy of the free exercise of religion, even at a public event.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[KevinG]

These spontaneous musical groups are not as hypothetical as you might think. 

 

A group of musical buddies from my public High School used to get together and form a brass band every year to play Christmas Carols at the local train station and nursing homes.  

 

In college a few of us formed a Dixieland Band and played at local cafes.  One of our favorites was "Just a Closer Walk With Thee".

 

I have distinct recollections of my High School Classmates breaking into "When the Saints Come Marching In" before and after rehearsals, or during breaks in football games.

Edited August 26, 2015 by KevinG