Otterson: On The Record

[Calm]

I know that Duncan? has already posted a link to it and Smac started a thread about the article, but I think the talk is important enough that I want everyone to be able to immediately see where it is being talked about now as well as in the future with the tags, search on its name etc.

 

In case anyone is wondering, the name in the program was Correcting the Record, but he gave it as On the Record and that is currently how it is posted on FairMormon.

 

It is a fantastic talk, he is a brilliant speaker.  Even if you think public affairs is boring, I think you will find this talk quite interesting in its range of coverage, including some behind the scene information...and great humour.  (taking the extra effort to correct autocorrect because this is the English version of the word in honour of Otterson's birth place)

 

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2015-fairmormon-conference/on-the-record 

 

This has the transcript, but I encourage you to listen...even though I usually prefer the transcript myself.

 

Also see:

 

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-pr-leader-shares-insights-at-fairmormon-conference

 

In a speech titled “On the Record,” the head of the Public Affairs Department of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints spoke Friday, August 7, 2015, about the opportunities and challenges of managing the Church’s public affairs efforts.

 

Michael Otterson, managing director of Public Affairs, addressed the 17th annual FairMormon Conference held at the Utah Valley Convention Center in Provo, Utah. 

 

 

 

 

[Duncan]

yes, it was me!!! I confess!

[rockpond]

Thanks for posting it Cal!

I know everyone has their own take on his remarks. But for me it was remarkable to have the church officially acknowledge that it has been unkind to the LGBT population in the past and is making efforts to change.

[PeterPear]

What's your point? Mormon changed his language, not doctrine:

Moroni 9:4 Behold, I am laboring with them continually; and when I speak the word of God with sharpness they tremble and anger against me; and when I use no sharpness they harden their hearts against it; wherefore, I fear lest the Spirit of the Lord hath ceased striving with them.

Mormon was steadfast while the world crumbled around him. He tried to be forceful in declaring the truth. Didn't help. He tried to be kind in declaring the truth. Didn't help.

[Russell C McGregor]

What's your point? Mormon changed his language, not doctrine:

Moroni 9:4 Behold, I am laboring with them continually; and when I speak the word of God with sharpness they tremble and anger against me; and when I use no sharpness they harden their hearts against it; wherefore, I fear lest the Spirit of the Lord hath ceased striving with them.

Mormon was steadfast while the world crumbled around him. He tried to be forceful in declaring the truth. Didn't help. He tried to be kind in declaring the truth. Didn't help.

 

But that doesn't mean he shouldn't have tried -- or that we should stop trying.

 

Mormon didn't throw up his hands and tell his contemporaries that what they popularly wanted to do was just fine.

 

And neither -- despite what some here imagine -- will we.

[Calm]

What's your point? Mormon changed his language, not doctrine:

Moroni 9:4 Behold, I am laboring with them continually; and when I speak the word of God with sharpness they tremble and anger against me; and when I use no sharpness they harden their hearts against it; wherefore, I fear lest the Spirit of the Lord hath ceased striving with them.

Mormon was steadfast while the world crumbled around him. He tried to be forceful in declaring the truth. Didn't help. He tried to be kind in declaring the truth. Didn't help.

But if the Spirit has not ceased striving for individuals, changing the language may open hearts at this time. There is nothing to indicate that God has withheld the Spirit from or stopped reaching out to anyone specfically in our leaders' declarations as far as I can tell.

" 41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy"

"betimes" means "seasonably" or when appropriate, not always

Edited August 10, 2015 by calmoriah

[Scott Lloyd]

But if the Spirit has not ceased striving for individuals, changing the language may open hearts at this time. There is nothing to indicate that God has withheld the Spirit from or stopped reaching out to anyone specfically in our leaders' declarations as far as I can tell.

" 41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy"

"betimes" means "seasonably" or when appropriate, not always

Actually betimes (an archaic word) means promptly, early on, without delay, speedily.

 

I would argue that if reproof is needed at all, reproving betimes is always appropriate.

 

Sharpness in this context means with clarity (as in sharpening the focus of a camera lens or a projected image, for example). If one reproves "with sharpness," one does so in a manner that minimizes the chance that one's meaning or intent will be misunderstood.

 

I suppose some would be quick to to misinterpret sharpness as intemperance or unkindness. I'm sure that's why the scriptural passage quickly adds the proviso that there afterwards should be an "increase of love" shown toward the one who has been reproved "lest he esteem thee to be his enemy."

Edited August 10, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Thanks for posting it Cal!

I know everyone has their own take on his remarks. But for me it was remarkable to have the church officially acknowledge that it has been unkind to the LGBT population in the past and is making efforts to change.

I suppose one would have to question Otterson directly to ascertain his precise meaning with his use of the descriptor "intemperate," but I would advise caution in concluding that he meant to imply unkindness.

 

One definition of intemperate is without restraint. That doesn't necessarily connote unkindness, although I grant that it could. (See my last post.)

Edited August 10, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

Actually betimes (an archaic word) means promptly, early on, without delay, speedily.

I would argue that if reproof is needed at all, reproving betimes is always appropriate.

I looked it up in Webster's 1828 and it was the first definition ("seasonably"...I may be interpreting that in a more modern way). Do you have a reason to prefer the second? It seems to me the first fits better.

It is the "with sharpness" I am suggesting isn't always appropriate, the verse seems to me to indicate only should be used when moved by the Spirit.

I think reproof with kindness can be used when common sense dictates unless the Spirit suggests it shouldn't be done.

Edited August 10, 2015 by calmoriah

[Scott Lloyd]

I looked it up in Webster's 1828 and it was the first definition ("seasonably"...I may be interpreting that in a more modern way). Do you have a reason to prefer the second? It seems to me the first fits better.

 

I don't have an 1828 dictionary at hand; you may have the advantage over me in that respect.

 

But dictionary.com, for example, (and it is just one among many sources that corroborate it) has the following:

 

 

 

1.

early; in good time:

He was up betimes doing his lessons.

2.

occasionally; at times.

3.

Archaic. within a short time; soon.

 

 

 

Note that the "archaic" definition is "within a short time; soon." That is what I've long taken betimes to mean in this context. To me, it makes eminent sense, considering the overall message of the scriptural passage. The proviso "when moved upon by the Holy Ghost," obviates in theory the chance that such sharp reproof would ever be administered inappropriately.

 

It is the "with sharpness" I am suggesting isn't always appropriate, the verse seems to me to indicate only should be used when moved by the Spirit.

 

I can't think of an occasion when it would not be advisable to administer needed reproof according to the definition I have given for sharpness: with clarity, precision, in a manner that minimizes the chance of being misunderstood.

 

I think reproof with kindness can be used when common sense dictates unless the Spirit suggests it shouldn't be done.

 

I don't see  sharpness as necessarily being devoid of kindness. I think we err when we regard it as such, although that may be a common misinterpretation of the word.

 

Some of the sharpest reproof I have ever received, I must in all honesty acknowledge, was administered with kindness and consideration.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

It is online, I just assumed you were using it. . I always use it for text from the early church, sometimes the one a bit eearlier as it can take awhile for a usage to spread:

Here is the page for "sharpness"

http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/search/word,Sharpness

"SH'ARPNESS, n.

1. Keenness of an edge or point; as the sharpness of a razor or a dart.

2. Not obtuseness.

3. Pungency; acidity; as the sharpness of vinegar.

4. Pungency of pain; keenness; severity of pain or affliction; as the sharpness of pain, grief or anguish.

5. Painfulness; afflictiveness; as the sharpness or calamity.

And the best quarrels in the heat are curst

By those that feel their sharpness. Shak.

6. Sverity of language; pungency; satirical sarcasm; as the sharpness of a satire or rebuke.

Some did all folly with just sharpness blame. Dryden.

7. Acuteness of intellect; the power of nice discernment; quickness of understanding; ingenuity; as sharpness of wit or understanding.

8. Quickness of sense or perception; as the sharpness of sight.

9. Keenness; sverity as the sharpness of the air or weather."

Nice collection of early dictionaries:

http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/browse?type=lcsubc&key=English%20language%20%2d%2d%20Dictionaries

Edited August 10, 2015 by calmoriah

[Scott Lloyd]

It is online, I just assumed you were using it. . I always use it for text from the early church, sometimes the one a bit eearlier as it can take awhile for a usage to spread:

 

 

I wonder what the 1828 dictionary gives for seasonably. If it's something along the lines of timely, it could be regarded as a synonymn for betimes with my preferred definition of the term, as in in good season.

 

Here is the page for "sharpness"

http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/search/word,Sharpness

"SH'ARPNESS, n.

1. Keenness of an edge or point; as the sharpness of a razor or a dart.

2. Not obtuseness.

3. Pungency; acidity; as the sharpness of vinegar.

4. Pungency of pain; keenness; severity of pain or affliction; as the sharpness of pain, grief or anguish.

5. Painfulness; afflictiveness; as the sharpness or calamity.

And the best quarrels in the heat are curst

By those that feel their sharpness. Shak.

6. Sverity of language; pungency; satirical sarcasm; as the sharpness of a satire or rebuke.

Some did all folly with just sharpness blame. Dryden.

7. Acuteness of intellect; the power of nice discernment; quickness of understanding; ingenuity; as sharpness of wit or understanding.

8. Quickness of sense or perception; as the sharpness of sight.

9. Keenness; sverity as the sharpness of the air or weather."

Nice collection of early dictionaries:

http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/browse?type=lcsubc&key=English%20language%20%2d%2d%20Dictionaries

 

 

From that list, the definitions I choose in the context of this passage of scripture are numbers 2 and 7.

 

I don't see the intentional, hostile, injurious or unnecessary infliction of pain as being consistent with being "moved upon by the Holy Ghost" or "showing forth ... love."

 

Edited to add:

 

I found this analysis on the Religious Studies Center website, so I don't think I'm on the wrong track with this (or, if I am, I'm not alone )

 

 

Reproving with Sharpness—When?

Robert L. Millet and Lloyd D. Newell

Robert L. Millet was a professor of ancient scripture at BYU, and Lloyd D. Newell was an assistant professor of Church history and doctrine at BYU when this was published.

Many years ago, a middle-aged couple sat across from me (Millet). She had her head bowed, and he busily eyed my office. Before I had the chance to ask why they had sought marriage counseling, Sister G. raised her head, revealing numerous bruises around the eyes and cheeks and an upper lip severely swollen. My question was an obvious one: “What happened to you?”

She started to answer but was quickly interrupted by an anxious husband: “We have just had a family disagreement. But then, that’s beside the point-let’s talk about why we are here!”

Brother G. went on and on about how his “needs” were going unmet, how he felt ignored and slighted in the home, and how his family had failed to recognize him as the head of the household. After a few minutes, I interrupted as I pointed to his wife’s bruises: “Brother G., did you do this to your wife?”

“I certainly did,” he retorted in a somewhat proud fashion.

“Why?” I asked, almost dumbfounded.

He paused for a few seconds, smiled, and then reached across my desk and grabbed my triple combination. “I have only done,” he replied, “what the Lord said fathers and priesthood holders should do when leading the Church or their families.” He read and commented: “‘Reproving betimes with sharpness. . . .’ You see, the Lord says we need to be sharp in our reproof or corrections.” He pounded my desk in synchrony with the word sharp. “I am only trying to establish myself as the head of my home, the patriarch.” He smiled again, confidently.

I stared in amazed stupor for what must have seemed like minutes. Surely, I thought, no member of the Church could be so perverse in judgment as to justify spouse abuse through the very section of the Doctrine and Covenants that warns harshly against the evils of unrighteous dominion. Or could he or she?

At the risk of committing the appeal-to-authority fallacy, I will point out that the article goes on to give a quote from Elder Maxwell that tends to support my understanding of the word betimes.

 

“In practice, however, when we undertake to reprove we frequently are prompted not by the Holy Ghost but by ego. Moreover, we often fail to reprove ‘betimes,’ meaning speedily and early on. Time can harden feelings as surely as the sun bakes wet clay.”

 

At your suggestion, I just Googled the search string "betimes Websters 1828 dictionary". I was looking for a definition of betimes, but it brought up a definition for early.

 

Reading through that definition, however, I noticed this:

 

EARLY, adv. er'ly. Soon; in good season; betimes; as, rise early; come early; begin early to instill into children principles of piety.

 

So, as I suspected, it does give in good season (seasonal?) as a synonym for both early and betimes.

 

And, checking betimes,  I found what I think must be the definition you referred to initially:

 

 

BETI'MES, adv. [be and time, that is, by the time.]

1. Seasonably; in good season or time; before it is late.

To measure life learn thou betimes.

2. Soon; in a short time.

He tires betimes, that spurs too fast betimes.

 

 

 

So even the first definition here gives "in good season" and "before it is late" as synonyms for "seasonably," all of which are consistent with an understanding of the term to mean soon, or promptly, or early on.

 

So, if I were to rephrase D&C 121:43 to reflect my own understanding of its meaning, I might do so as follows:

 

Reproving early on with clarity and precision whenever prompted to do so by the Holy Ghost, and then displaying afterward yet greater love toward the one you have reproved, lest he regard you as his enemy.

  Edited August 10, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[maklelan]

Actually betimes (an archaic word) means promptly, early on, without delay, speedily.

 

I would argue that if reproof is needed at all, reproving betimes is always appropriate.

 

Sharpness in this context means with clarity (as in sharpening the focus of a camera lens or a projected image, for example). If one reproves "with sharpness," one does so in a manner that minimizes the chance that one's meaning or intent will be misunderstood.

 

I suppose some would be quick to to misinterpret sharpness as intemperance or unkindness. I'm sure that's why the scriptural passage quickly adds the proviso that there afterwards should be an "increase of love" shown toward the one who has been reproved "lest he esteem thee to be his enemy."

 

I can tell you definitively that the Church interprets "betimes" as "at the right time," or "seasonably," and "sharpness" as "strictness," or "severity." This is how we define these words for our scripture translators. We actually just spent some time working on a different rendering of "sharpness" after a translator rendered it according to the "clarity" understanding.

[Calm]

Thanks, mak.

Scott, you said this "I can't think of an occasion when it would not be advisable to administer needed reproof according to the definition I have given for sharpness"

Then why would there be any need to wait for the Spirit to tell you it was time to supply reproof?

[Scott Lloyd]

Thanks, mak.

Scott, you said this "I can't think of an occasion when it would not be advisable to administer needed reproof according to the definition I have given for sharpness"

Then why would there be any need to wait for the Spirit to tell you it was time to supply reproof?

Because of the propensity of the natural man to rush to administer reproof inappropriately.

 

As Elder Maxwell said in the quote I gave above:

 

In practice, however, when we undertake to reprove we frequently are prompted not by the Holy Ghost but by ego.

 

[KevinG]

Betimes and Sharply, when interpreted as Scott and other Church Officials have done (Meaning soon, or in the appropriate time, and precisely and clearly) fits very well with sound and basic psychological practices for correction.  To modify behavior in a positive way, correction must be related directly to the behavior at hand not a general displeasure, and it must be done closely to the time of the observed behavior so it is associated with that behavior.

 

You cannot yell at a dog who has pooped in another room, at a time long past, and expect it to associate your displeasure with their act.

 

Instead you point their nose at the offending poop immediately after they do it.  Or even better praise and reward them for pooping outside immediately after they do it.

 

That is a simplified illustration, but when it comes to correction and behavior modification we humans aren't build much differently.

 

Section 121 when understood correctly is a very powerful lesson in constructive behavior and relationship building.

[Scott Lloyd]

I can tell you definitively that the Church interprets "betimes" as "at the right time," or "seasonably," and "sharpness" as "strictness," or "severity." This is how we define these words for our scripture translators. We actually just spent some time working on a different rendering of "sharpness" after a translator rendered it according to the "clarity" understanding.

The only non-English language with which I am acquainted is Swedish, so out of curiosity, I checked the Swedish translation of D&C 121:43.

 

I'm sorry, i can't figure out how to type the Swedish characters, but without them, the verse reads:

 

i ratt tid skarpt tillrattavisande, nar den Helige Anden manar dartill ....

 

 

 

Literally translated back to English, it would read, "at the right time, sharp reproof when the Holy Ghost calls thereto ...."

 

The phrase "at the right time" would seem to support what you are saying. However, "at the right time" could reasonably be understood to mean "early on" or "promptly." And dictionary sources I have checked overwhelmingly give that definition for betimes, even the 1828 dictionary, as we have seen.

 

The Swedish word skarpt simply means sharply in English. That doesn't help us much, since the Swedish word, like the English word, could be taken to mean "with clarity."

 

I wonder -- and you would know better than I -- if translation of Church literature is driven somewhat by a need to keep new translations consistent with what has been done in the past with translations into other languages. That is to say, betimes long ago may have been rendered as "at the right time," so now, for the sake of consistency, that meaning must be held to in any new translation of the Doctrine and Covenants so as to avoid the need to go back and revise all previous translations.

 

The same could hold true with sharpness.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Betimes and Sharply, when interpreted as Scott and other Church Officials have done (Meaning soon, or in the appropriate time, and precisely and clearly) fits very well with sound and basic psychological practices for correction.  To modify behavior in a positive way, correction must be related directly to the behavior at hand not a general displeasure, and it must be done closely to the time of the observed behavior so it is associated with that behavior.

 

You cannot yell at a dog who has pooped in another room, at a time long past, and expect it to associate your displeasure with their act.

 

Instead you point their nose at the offending poop immediately after they do it.  Or even better praise and reward them for pooping outside immediately after they do it.

 

That is a simplified illustration, but when it comes to correction and behavior modification we humans aren't build much differently.

 

Section 121 when understood correctly is a very powerful lesson in constructive behavior and relationship building.

Thank you.

 

I think most of us know this intuitively. Which is why I hold to the interpretation I do of that scriptural passage.

[KevinG]

Thank you.

 

I think most of us know this intuitively...

 

Captain Obvious at your service!     

[rockpond]

I suppose one would have to question Otterson directly to ascertain his precise meaning with his use of the descriptor "intemperate," but I would advise caution in concluding that he meant to imply unkindness.

 

One definition of intemperate is without restraint. That doesn't necessarily connote unkindness, although I grant that it could. (See my last post.)

 

"Intemperate, even harsh" implies unkindness.

Edited August 10, 2015 by rockpond

[Scott Lloyd]

"Intemperate, even harsh" implies unkindness.

Not necessarily.

 

Conceivably, under some circumstances, harshness can be required in an effort to effectively correct someone, even if you love the person. That would be true especially if one holds to what calmoriah and maklelan are trying to persuade me to regarding the meaning of "sharpness" in D&C 121.

 

But again, one would have to directly question Otterson to precisely ascertain or clarify his meaning. I grant that he may have meant to imply unkindness.

 

Edited to add:

 

Harsh is yet another instance in which we deal with varying definitions or shades of meaning.

 

According to one online source, it could mean

 

unpleasant and difficult to accept or experience

 

 

or it could mean

 

 

severe or cruel : not kind

 

 

The latter definition could be equated with unkindness; the former could not.

 

Is a disciplinary council's decision to excommunicate a Church member harsh? Most would say yes.

 

Is it unkind? Some would say yes. Some would say no, under the circumstances.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

"Intemperate, even harsh" implies unkindness.

I have at times out of fear been harsh with my kids. I can assure you I meant the upmost kindness at the time since I was intent on saving them from harm (keeping them from sticking their fingers in a socket, going too near a fire or off the sidewalk into the road).

[KevinG]

From the context of D&C 121 we know that unrighteous dominion is a sin.   That informs my understanding of what sharpness means here.  Also the footnotes take us to the power of God, and sharpness being used in the context of a perfect God speaking.  Again if I interpret sharpness as meaning power with authority, that implies I had better be accurate and truthful, not selfish and emotionally scarring.

[Scott Lloyd]

From the context of D&C 121 we know that unrighteous dominion is a sin.   That informs my understanding of what sharpness means here.  Also the footnotes take us to the power of God, and sharpness being used in the context of a perfect God speaking.  Again if I interpret sharpness as meaning power with authority, that implies I had better be accurate and truthful, not selfish and emotionally scarring.

I guess the question is whether one can be sharp in administering reproof without being harsh or severe.

 

In fact, harshness might not serve the cause of clarity, which I contend is a better definition for sharpness.

[maklelan]

The only non-English language with which I am acquainted is Swedish, so out of curiosity, I checked the Swedish translation of D&C 121:43.

 

I'm sorry, i can't figure out how to type the Swedish characters, but without them, the verse reads:

 

Literally translated back to English, it would read, "at the right time, sharp reproof when the Holy Ghost calls thereto ...."

 

The phrase "at the right time" would seem to support what you are saying. However, "at the right time" could reasonably be understood to mean "early on" or "promptly." And dictionary sources I have checked overwhelmingly give that definition for betimes, even the 1828 dictionary, as we have seen.

 

The Swedish word skarpt simply means sharply in English. That doesn't help us much, since the Swedish word, like the English word, could be taken to mean "with clarity."

 

I wonder -- and you would know better than I -- if translation of Church literature is driven somewhat by a need to keep new translations consistent with what has been done in the past with translations into other languages. That is to say, betimes long ago may have been rendered as "at the right time," so now, for the sake of consistency, that meaning must be held to in any new translation of the Doctrine and Covenants so as to avoid the need to go back and revise all previous translations.

 

The same could hold true with sharpness.

 

No, we've overhauled the translation process over the last 20-ish years, and the only real concerns for a given translation are for (1) faithfulness to the original, and (2) internal consistency. When translators or supervisors bring ambiguities or concerns with the existing lexical or translation guide entries we will send the questions up the line for clarification or revision, and that happens from time to time, but this verse has long been defined the way I described. 

Edited August 10, 2015 by maklelan