bjw Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 theplains thank you for reminding me why I am no longer an evangelical christian of your House.In His Eternal Debt/GraceAnakin7I can definitely agree with this. All too often people have made knowledge of theology a condition for salvation. Many come to Jesus in differing ways, and come to know Him when learning of the atonement and all He has done for us. The "another Jesus/another Gospel" issue in the NT concerned the atonement, not about anything else, so provided a person accepts the atonement they have all they need to know Jesus. Luke 2:52 says Jesus progressed in wisdom and stature and found favor with God, so we do follow the true Jesus. I have found as well that since no longer being evangelical I am less judgmental.
Anakin7 Posted August 11, 2015 Author Posted August 11, 2015 bjw thenk you for sharing and insight my fellow former Ev Christian now LDS Saint/Christian. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
FormerLDS Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) Joseph Smith was not Mormon when he read the bible, which led him to pray in the grove, which led to the First Vision... a literal meeting with Jesus Christ. Specifically which version of the first vision did any being claim to be Jesus Christ? I would argue his was a literal meeting with an angel of light who deceives people into thinking he's Jesus Christ. Edited August 12, 2015 by FormerLDS
FormerLDS Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Friends, The Jesus Christ of the CJCLDS has never given anyone eternal life and can only offer the "promise" of that life. The true Jesus Christ of the Bible will give anyone and everyone who chooses to believe in Him eternal life today. Those who have the Son have eternal life and those who do not have the Son DO NOT have eternal life.
Guest Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 On the way home from work today here in Southern California I was listening to a evangelical radio broadcast [ I Think it was K-Wave ] and the host was interviewing a professor from a college [cannot remember which one] who was a lesbian who promoted her worldview in her discussions with others [Christian and non Christian ]. She had written something that had been recieved by a local Pastor [And others] who invited her to his home for a meal in which the initial meeting having no spiritual discussions just temporal discussions [ My memory does not recall all the events] but she was invited to church and in which she went and met other Christians and she stated that she met Jesus in reading the Holy Bible and through a series of events she became a Christian and has totaly changed her worldview of life after she met Jesus. Can a Investigator [ Or a member ] meet Jesus Christ in reading the Holy Bible - the Book of Mormon - The Doctrine and Covenants - Pearl of Great Price ?. Thank in advance for your thoughts. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7Uh...meet how? Anyone who has enough faith or whom Christ chooses can met him "Face to Face" as did Moses. Or they can "find him" within the pages of scripture. Is this the answer you are looking for?
Bobbieaware Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) Do you mean a Jesus who has always been the Eternal God, the LDS version of Jesus who is the firstspirit child of heavenly parents - who progressed into a God, or Jesus - a prophet of Islam?Thanks,JimI find it amazing that non-LDS Christians are horrified by the idea that Christ could have had an existence as God's first-born spirit child, the firstborn of all creation before the foundation of the world; but they swallow like sweetest honey the fact that he started out on this earth as a helpless baby boy who grew, leaned and progressed until he became perfect. I know the non-LDS Christians try to get around this inconvenient truth by saying Christ was fully God and yet fully man. But by the same token, why can it not also be said that Christ was fully God and fully a spirit child of God in the premortal world? If a new phase of growth and learning for the eternal God happened here on this world, why couldn't something very similar to that also happen in the pre-earth life?It's said that if something actually happens once, it's much more likely it could have happened before and may happen once again; but if something has never happened before it's much less likely it will ever happen. Does not Christ's growing and learning experience on earth, in spite of the fact that he was already the eternal God, show that if God has a good reason for doing so he is perfectly capable of setting up another similar scenario somewhere else in his universe? And lest you object, you need to know that in LDS theology Christ was the eternal God BEFORE he was born as a spirit child of God the Father in the spirit world. In Mormonism, God is the indestructible Spirt of Truth that has no beginning and can have no end. Edited August 12, 2015 by Bobbieaware
Flyonthewall Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Friends, The Jesus Christ of the CJCLDS has never given anyone eternal life and can only offer the "promise" of that life. The true Jesus Christ of the Bible will give anyone and everyone who chooses to believe in Him eternal life today. Those who have the Son have eternal life and those who do not have the Son DO NOT have eternal life.True, eternal life is not the church's to give. But, the church is the vehicle establised by Jesus Christ to aid us in coming to Him... For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. So yes, your words are true. But the implications behind them are off base. 2
Anakin7 Posted August 12, 2015 Author Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) FormerLDS Anakin7 here [Former Methodist/Fundamentalist Independant Baptist] so you are back again, welcome. Thank you for your thoughtful post, in a world where many are thinking of themselves it is refreshing that one such as yourself care for our eternal well being. It is true that The COJCOLDS does not give/provide True Salvation only Jesus Christ can, The Church [Church Of Jesus Christ Of latter Day Saint ]is the means to proclaim/administer the ordinances of His True Gospel and be able to accept/access/activate/grab hold of/hold on to his True Grace by way of True Faith. Yes we give the promise of Eternal Life with God/Jesus Christ/Holy Ghost but we are not OSAS [ Once Saved Always Saved ]. One must strive and win to stay in True Salvation. A True Belief/Faith is a continuious action of the Heart/Mind/Body. May True Grace Be with you that is accepted/accessed/activated by True Faith. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited August 12, 2015 by Anakin7
boblloyd91 Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) Specifically which version of the first vision did any being claim to be Jesus Christ?I would argue his was a literal meeting with an angel of light who deceives people into thinking he's Jesus Christ.So someone prayed for help and God allows Satan to come along and deceive them? That sounds sick and wrong. Edited August 12, 2015 by boblloyd91
Flyonthewall Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Specifically which version of the first vision did any being claim to be Jesus Christ? I would argue his was a literal meeting with an angel of light who deceives people into thinking he's Jesus Christ.It does not matter which version any being claimed to be Jesus Christ. Whether or not Jesus introduced himself or was introduced by the Father, does not change the fact that He was there. I am glad you see it as a meeting with an angel of light, but what you don't understand is that an angel of light will never deceive anyone. You see, an angel of light is an angel of God as all light and truth come from God. While you refer to a scripture that says Satan may APPEAR as an angel of light, he can never ever BE an angel of light. 1
FormerLDS Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 True, eternal life is not the church's to give. But, the church is the vehicle establised by Jesus Christ to aid us in coming to Him... For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.So yes, your words are true. But the implications behind them are off base. The reality is that according to LDS doctrine, the "Jesus Christ" of the CJCLDS has never given anyone eternal life. If you don't agree, look it up. Jesus Christ said in John 6:54 "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." In John 10:28, Jesus Christ said "I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." How can a "Christ" who has never given eternal life to anyone be the same "Christ" as one who gives eternal life?
FormerLDS Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 So someone prayed for help and God allows Satan to come along and deceive them? That sounds sick and wrong. Satan is a deceiver. What else would you expect? "Oh I could never do that. It's too sick and wrong." Seriously?
Anakin7 Posted August 12, 2015 Author Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) FormerMormon is one Once Saved Always Saved according to Holy Writ and True Saint/Christian History ?. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited August 12, 2015 by Anakin7
FormerLDS Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 It does not matter which version any being claimed to be Jesus Christ. Whether or not Jesus introduced himself or was introduced by the Father, does not change the fact that He was there.I am glad you see it as a meeting with an angel of light, but what you don't understand is that an angel of light will never deceive anyone. You see, an angel of light is an angel of God as all light and truth come from God.While you refer to a scripture that says Satan may APPEAR as an angel of light, he can never ever BE an angel of light. 11 Corinthians 11:14 plainly says "Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." But your opinion seems to be "Satan himself is not transformed into an angel of light."?
jkwilliams Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 The reality is that according to LDS doctrine, the "Jesus Christ" of the CJCLDS has never given anyone eternal life. If you don't agree, look it up. Jesus Christ said in John 6:54 "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." In John 10:28, Jesus Christ said "I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." How can a "Christ" who has never given eternal life to anyone be the same "Christ" as one who gives eternal life? How do you know Jesus hasn't given anyone in the LDS church eternal life?
Anakin7 Posted August 12, 2015 Author Posted August 12, 2015 In The Grove satan was trying to destroy Joseph Smith and stop him from pleading for help and enveloped him with darkness and the True Light from heaven destroyed /dispenced the darkness. Can/will satan cast out satan ?. In His Etrenal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Calm Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) 11 Corinthians 11:14 plainly says "Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."But your opinion seems to be "Satan himself is not transformed into an angel of light."?So this is a false translation?"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light."Or this one?"And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." Edited August 12, 2015 by calmoriah 1
Bobbieaware Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 The reality is that according to LDS doctrine, the "Jesus Christ" of the CJCLDS has never given anyone eternal life. If you don't agree, look it up. Jesus Christ said in John 6:54 "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." In John 10:28, Jesus Christ said "I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." How can a "Christ" who has never given eternal life to anyone be the same "Christ" as one who gives eternal life?If believers in Christ receive the fullness of all eternal blessings at the moment they accept him as Savior, why then did the Lord tell the believers of the Apostolic Era that only those among them who overcome the world, just as he did, will be given the right and blessing to be seated on the throne of his eternal authority and power?21 To him THAT OVERCOMETH WILL I GRANT to sit with me in my throne, EVEN AS I ALSO OVERCAME and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3)
FormerLDS Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 How do you know Jesus hasn't given anyone in the LDS church eternal life? According to LDS doctrine, "Eternal life" is not given until after the final resurrection.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 According to LDS doctrine, "Eternal life" is not given until after the final resurrection. Final resurrection? OK.
Bobbieaware Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) According to LDS doctrine, "Eternal life" is not given until after the final resurrection.Even Paul himself says the blessings of salvation we receive on earth are the earnest (down payment) of the inheritance we will ultimately receive when we're raised from the dead and receive the fullness of the glory of God in heaven. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL THE REDEMPTION of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1) Edited August 12, 2015 by Bobbieaware 1
FormerLDS Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 In The Grove satan was trying to destroy Joseph Smith and stop him from pleading for help and enveloped him with darkness and the True Light from heaven destroyed /dispenced the darkness. Can/will satan cast out satan ?. In His Etrenal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Well as long as the being is enveloped in "true light" then I guess we should be good. I mean, you people are a lot smarter than this. No one really knows what he saw that day. Look at what appeared to the "prophet" Mohammed and he ended up with a supernatural book (and didn't even know how to read or write).
jkwilliams Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 According to LDS doctrine, "Eternal life" is not given until after the final resurrection. Heck, I'm an apostate, and even I know that's not correct in LDS doctrine. See section 132 for an example of someone having his eternal life sealed upon him in this life (I'm not saying that he actually did receive eternal life, but that's what is said). 1
FormerLDS Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 If believers in Christ receive the fullness of all eternal blessings at the moment they accept him as Savior, why then did the Lord tell the believers of the Apostolic Era that only those among them who overcome the world, just as he did, will be given the right and blessing to be seated on the throne of his eternal authority and power?21 To him THAT OVERCOMETH WILL I GRANT to sit with me in my throne, EVEN AS I ALSO OVERCAME and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3) 1 John 5:5 explains this: "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" Would be easy to see those who believe (i.e. have eternal life) are those who overcome.
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