"cut And Dry" And Other Garbled Idioms

[Scott Lloyd]

This thread is about English language idioms that have gotten messed up over time. I experience some dissonance when I see examples of that on this board; hence this thread. I will highlight them here as I notice them.

 

For example, many who are familiar with my posting history know that misuse of the expression "to beg the question" bothers me acutely. I have made an issue of that more than once in the past and will likely continue to do so.

 

Also, I get annoyed when I see someone write, for example, that a prophet "prophecies" such and such. (I saw an instance of that in an on-line piece by Rod Meldrum just today.) Of course, it is correctly written prophesies, not "prophecies." Prophesies is a verb; prophecies is a noun. They aren't even pronounced the same. Mr. Meldrum needs to take some of the proceeds from sales of his books and DVDs promulgating his cherished "heartland model" and employ a good proof reader.

 

For now, let me focus on an error that I have noticed on this board and elsewhere: "cut and dry."

 

It is used to mean that something is settled, decided, complete, without need for further discussion or argument.

 

But the correct idiom is cut and dried, not "cut and dry." I don't know how the corruption came about, but I see it quite often these days.

 

Many of those who were raised on a farm, as I was, will understand the derivation of this expression. Before alfalfa, grass or other crops used for hay to feed livestock can be baled, they first must be cut as they are growing in the field. The crop must then be left on the ground for several days to dry. It won't do to try to form it into bales while it is still moist; that will quickly clog the machinery and it will not form a substantial bail. Even if it could be baled while still wet, I suppose the hay would quickly rot.

 

So, when the hay is finally in a state in which it can easily be baled, it is said to have been "cut and dried," not "cut and dry."

Edited July 25, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[David13]

I always said "cut and dried", so ...

I like them, the idioms.

I always like to tweak them a little tho'. such as 'rare as hounds teeth'.  That one usually gets one comment.

dc

[canard78]

I love you for this post.

I switched to full mode to "rep" you for it and will likely do so for every additional post you make to this thread.

Can I add in:

- "on tender hooks" which should be "on tenterhooks." The hooks in the idiom's origin are most certainly not tender!

And:

- "I could care less." I've seen this one several times on this board. I've been horrified recently to see it creeping onto the British side of the pond too on Facebook. Every time I see or hear it I want to punch something. Please... You could NOT care less. NOT!!!!!!. Adding "...n't" to the end of "could" is an option too and really only takes an extra 3 key strokes or taps on a touch screen.

[strappinglad]

I think some of the time corruption comes from mis-hearing the idiom or expression. Plus, the STUPID spelling protocols in English make it nearly impossible for those who are born outside of English speaking countries to succeed in negotiating the written word. Oh that there were a way to make English spelling phonetic, more like Spanish. Even in Spanish ,if there are places where the sounds of two different letters are very similar, spelling errors abound.

    To my original point, if 10 people are asked to write the lyrics of a popular song, 10 versions can easily be produced , and this is after they have been heard dozens of times.

[sethpayne]

This thread is about English language idioms that have gotten messed up over time. I experience some dissonance when I see examples of that on this board; hence this thread. I will highlight them here as I notice them.

 

For example, many who are familiar with my posting history know that misuse of the expression "to beg the question" bothers me acutely. I have made an issue of that more than once in the past and will likely continue to do so.

 

Also, I get annoyed when I see someone write, for example, that a prophet "prophecies" such and such. (I saw an instance of that in an on-line piece by Rod Meldrum just today.) Of course, it is correctly written prophesies, not "prophecies." Prophesies is a verb; prophecies is a noun. They aren't even pronounced the same. Mr. Meldrum needs to take some of the proceeds from sales of his books and DVDs promulgating his cherished "heartland model" and employ a good proof reader.

 

For now, let me focus on an error that I have noticed on this board and elsewhere: "cut and dry."

 

It is used to mean that something is settled, decided, complete, without need for further discussion or argument.

 

But the correct idiom is cut and dried, not "cut and dry." I don't know how the corruption came about, but I see it quite often these days.

 

Many of those who were raised on a farm, as I was, will understand the derivation of this expression. Before alfalfa, grass or other crops used for hay to feed livestock can be bailed, they first must be cut as they are growing in the field. The crop must then be left on the ground for several days to dry. It won't do to try to form it into bails while it is still moist; that will quickly clog the machinery and it will not form a substantial bail. Even if it could be bailed while still wet, I suppose the hay would quickly rot.

 

So, when the hay is finally in a state in which it can easily be bailed, it is said to have been "cut and dried," not "cut and dry."

 

IMO, all of this just begs the question as to why Scott is so obsessed with grammar.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

I love you for this post.

I switched to full mode to "rep" you for it and will likely do so for every additional post you make to this thread.

Can I add in:

- "on tender hooks" which should be "on tenterhooks." The hooks in the idiom's origin are most certainly not tender!

And:

- "I could care less." I've seen this one several times on this board. I've been horrified recently to see it creeping onto the British side of the pond too on Facebook. Every time I see or hear it I want to punch something. Please... You could NOT care less. NOT!!!!!!. Adding "...n't" to the end of "could" is an option too and really only takes an extra 3 key strokes or taps on a touch screen.

A cordial rep point back for this contribution. I have been educated by your post -- which is no mean occurrence.

 

And like you, I have been irritated by "could care less" for a long, long time.

[Scott Lloyd]

I think some of the time corruption comes from mis-hearing the idiom or expression. Plus, the STUPID spelling protocols in English make it nearly impossible for those who are born outside of English speaking countries to succeed in negotiating the written word. Oh that there were a way to make English spelling phonetic, more like Spanish. Even in Spanish ,if there are places where the sounds of two different letters are very similar, spelling errors abound.

    To my original point, if 10 people are asked to write the lyrics of a popular song, 10 versions can easily be produced , and this is after they have been heard dozens of times.

I've noticed that too when I've Googled a song to read its lyrics. I've long ago stopped trusting Internet versions of song lyrics, because they are obviously written by people who are merely making their best guesses from what they've heard on recordings, as opposed to actually copying them off published sheet music. And they seem to copy each other without making corrections. I know this, because I've seen renditions of lyrics that are obviously wrong, yet the errors get repeated from source to source.

 

I play the guitar, and I've noticed it's kind of that way with on-line versions of song chord progressions as well. But that's a subject for another time and another board.

 

By the way, do you know what a "mondegreen" is?

Edited July 25, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

IMO, all of this just begs the question as to why Scott is so obsessed with grammar.

 

[Ahab]

Okay I said something today that I wanted to slap myself for a little later.

I said something about how I really like it when I find myself on the same "wavlength" with someone else and I think I should have said "frequency" instead.

Great Scott, how should I correct my error,

signed, I really could care less.

[Kenngo1969]

IMO, all of this just begs the question as to why Scott is so obsessed with grammar.

 

Your smiley may mean that you know you've incorrectly used that phrase.  However, for the uninitiated:

 

http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/61-begging-the-question

 

P.S.: Oh.  And the answer to your question is, "Because he is a wordsmith extraordinaire!"

Edited July 25, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[Scott Lloyd]

Okay I said something today that I wanted to slap myself for a little later.

I said something about how I really like it when I find myself on the same "wavlength" with someone else and I think I should have said "frequency" instead.

Great Scott, how should I correct my error,

signed, I really could care less.

I'm fairly certain wavelength and frequency are synonyms in this context. So you may feel free to use one or the other as it suits you.

 

After doing a bit of Google research just now, I realize that the two terms are not technically identical in meaning.

 

However, as used in an idiomatic expression to mean that one person is in uncanny agreement with another, either word can be appropriately used.

 

For the record, wavelength means "the distance between successive crests of a wave, especially points in a sound wave or electromagnetic wave"; frequency means "the number of cycles or completed alternations per unit time of a wave or oscillation."

Edited July 25, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Kenngo1969]

... For the record, wavelength means "the distance between successive crests of a wave, especially points in a sound wave or electromagnetic wave"; frequency means "the number of cycles or completed alternations per unit time of a wave or oscillation."

Awesome!  It's amazing what one learns here at MD&DB!

[Kenngo1969]

... By the way, do you know what a "mondegreen" is?

I do, now!  As I said, it's amazing what one learns here at MD&DB!

 

 

[mon-di-green] 

 

noun

1. a word or phrase resulting from a misinterpretation ofa word or phrase that has been misheard.

 

Origin of mondegreen

 

1954; coined by Sylvia Wright, U.S. writer, from the linelaid him on the green,  interpreted as Lady Mondegreen, in a Scottish ballad

 

Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mondegreen

Edited July 25, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[CA Steve]

I suppose this is a mute point but it is a doggy dog world so in order to nip this problem in the butt lemmie just say this. Irregardless of Scott's good intentions we are not at his beckon & call and while poor grammer may be the equivalent of massive hunger pains for him, he has another thing coming if he think we will cease to wreck havoc on the English language.

 

Frankly I think he is just looking for an escape goat.

[canard78]

 

I do, now!  As I said, it's amazing what one learns here at MD&DB!

 

[mon-di-green]

noun

1. a word or phrase resulting from a misinterpretation of a word or phrase that has been misheard.

Origin of mondegreen

1954; coined by Sylvia Wright, U.S. writer, from the linelaid him on the green,  interpreted as Lady Mondegreen, in a Scottish ballad

Source: http://dictionary.re...owse/mondegreen

 

Oh! I love it, thank you Scott and Ken for this wonderful new word.

 

As a fan of etymology I think this is my new favourite word origin.

[canard78]

I suppose this is a mute point but it is a doggy dog world so in order to nip this problem in the butt lemmie just say this. Irregardless of Scott's good intentions we are not at his beckon & call and while poor grammer may be the equivalent of massive hunger pains for him, he has another thing coming if he think we will cease to wreck havoc on the English language.

 

Frankly I think he is just looking for an escape goat.

 

This is brilliant... but you must know that for obsessives like myself it still hurts my head!

[canard78]

 

By the way, do you know what a "mondegreen" is?

 

I'm tickled by that one Scott, brilliant.

 

Anyone who refuses to correct themselves after we so generously and considerately point out their error now also have a name:

 

A Mumpsimus

[Thinking]

I used begs the question once on this board and Daniel Peterson corrected me. I researched it and now use raises the question. Where was I introduced to the incorrect begs the question? One of my professors at BYU.

 

Dat sed, we shudnt be two criticle uv dose postars who's langwij skils our knot up too parr.

[Bobbieaware]

Your smiley may mean that you know you've incorrectly used that phrase.  However, for the uninitiated:

 

http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/61-begging-the-question

 

P.S.: Oh.  And the answer to your question is, "Because he is a wordsmith extraordinaire!"

True. But even Scott was recently caught misusing a well-used idiom when he wrote "tow the line" rather than "TOE the line." To err is human...

[smac97]

Here are a few:

 

1. "I wait with bated bread" (not "baited breath").

 

2. "She piqued my interest" (not "peaked my interest").

 

3. "You really need to shape up and toe the line" (not "tow the line").

 

4. "He is wracked with deep-seated guilt" (not "racked" and not "deep-seeded").

 

5. "Our candidate for mayor is a shoo-in" (not "shoe-in").

 

6. "Magicians only skill is sleight-of-hand trickery" (not "slight-of-hand").

 

7. "That restaurant has a great hors d'oeuvre that will really whet your appetite" (not "wet your appetite").

 

8. "Sometimes pollen can wreak havoc on my wife's allergies" (not "reek havoc").

 

I messed up a few of these as I wrote them (switching the wrong one for the correct one).  Funny!

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[Kenngo1969]

I used begs the question once on this board and Daniel Peterson corrected me. I researched it and now use raises the question. Where was I introduced to the incorrect begs the question? One of my professors at BYU.

 

Dat sed, we shudnt be two criticle uv dose postars who's langwij skils our knot up too parr.

Which discipline is/was this erroneous professor a professor of?  (Just curious. )

[Kenngo1969]

... [T]he correct idiom is cut and dried, not "cut and dry." I don't know how the corruption came about, but I see it quite often these days.

 

Many of those who were raised on a farm, as I was, will understand the derivation of this expression. Before alfalfa, grass or other crops used for hay to feed livestock can be bailed, they first must be cut as they are growing in the field. The crop must then be left on the ground for several days to dry. It won't do to try to form it into bails while it is still moist; that will quickly clog the machinery and it will not form a substantial bail. Even if it could be bailed while still wet, I suppose the hay would quickly rot.

 

So, when the hay is finally in a state in which it can easily be bailed, it is said to have been "cut and dried," not "cut and dry." [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.]

For the most part, I, too, love this post, Scott.  However, it should be remembered that one bales hay, while one may post bail in order to get out of jail himself, or to bail someone else out of jail.  (The way I remember the difference is the "ai" diphthong which is common to both bail and jail.)  Shall we start a companion thread about incorrectly-used homophones?  (Don't worry, though: I doubt misuse of homophones is a serious crime for which substantial bail would be required. If you happen to be arrested, I will be happy to start a Gofundme account to raise money to bail you out. )

 

Perhaps we could even start another companion thread about how many Utahans ( ) cannot pronounce diphthongs correctly.  Often, they traverse the "trell" that leads to their "mellbox" in order to check their "mell."  And let's not talk about the ice-like balls that sometimes form in severe weather conditions and fall from the sky: many Utahans ( ) say that this substance/phenomenon is Hell!   (If we were to "bail" you out, would we be "belling" you out, instead? )

 

P.S.: Their, their, Scott: You're not the first person to use homophones incorrectly on this board. (Insert winky smiley here; exceeded the emoticon limit!)

Edited July 25, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[strappinglad]

Homophones?? Hey , I thought we were going to give that topic a rest for a while !!!

[Kenngo1969]

Homophones?? Hey , I thought we were going to give that topic a rest for a while !!!

No, but perhaps we might give it a rest for awhile!

 

P.S.:  Merely being prone to misuse homophones isn't the sin; only acting on it is.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[CA Steve]

This is brilliant... but you must know that for obsessives like myself it still hurts my head!

Thanks.

Sorry about your head.

I don't understand why so many have problems with idioms, it's not like it is rocket surgery.