Mystery Meat Posted July 16, 2015 Posted July 16, 2015 Well, we certainly operate from very different assumptions. And I think I understand where you are coming from. I think where you and I part ways is in the "Why wouldn't I do this?" I'm questioning what underlies this question. You mention rules and boundaries? What rules? What boundaries? I can't find them in the Scriptures. And in fact, the whole idea seems contrary to the *principles* outlined in the Scriptures. Fair enough. I think we will have to agree to disagree. Fortunately we don't believe in a closed canon and so I don't think using the scriptures as a means to showing finite limits to how Church policy and doctrine may be determined is fair. 1
Mystery Meat Posted July 16, 2015 Posted July 16, 2015 I'm not saying *you.* I'm speaking in general. As in, why can't this be the simple way we teach our kids and others to be respectful of Church leaders and their callings. ETA: It seems to me that all of these "rules" about titles put a veneer of respect but they do nothing to actually teach respect and instill it within members of the Church. I think you make a fair point here. Titles are hallow and empty without the respect that should accompany them. I think you make important points about teaching our children to be respectful. Thanks for your thoughts. 2
sethpayne Posted July 16, 2015 Posted July 16, 2015 (edited) Fair enough. I think we will have to agree to disagree. Fortunately we don't believe in a closed canon and so I don't think using the scriptures as a means to showing finite limits to how Church policy and doctrine may be determined is fair. Now this is an interesting view to me. Because we do have a defined process for adding to the canon. So it seems that if something is important enough to expand the canon, it should be done. As I think about it, that probably explains my skepticism of all non-canonical sources as authority on Church doctrine and policy. But don't misunderstand me. I agree that the Standard Works don't function as a day-to-day guide for bishops on how to use the computers, process tithing, run courts, etc... So policies clearly have to exist. But I would argue that any policy must be strongly supported by scripture. This issue of titles, IMO, is not well-supported by Scripture. This doesn't mean I -- or anyone else -- will show disrespect to Elder/President Nelson or any Church leader. Edited July 16, 2015 by sethpayne 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 16, 2015 Posted July 16, 2015 I agree with Marcus Borg (as does David Bokovoy): Scripture is a human product. Scripture is the response of religious communities to God, not the other way around.OK, but I don't know that you can respond in sethpayne's behalf with that. His view seems to be that the content of the Standard Works (or his individual take on the content) trumps anything that living Church leaders should say or do, individually or collectively.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 16, 2015 Posted July 16, 2015 Indeed I do. Very well put. The Scriptures are the Supreme Authority (man, I like the sound of that!) on questions of Church administration.But what happens when the Brethren, acting under inspiration from God, understand them differently than you do? Do I follow the Lord's anointed, or do I follow the gospel according to sethpayne?
Scott Lloyd Posted July 16, 2015 Posted July 16, 2015 I think you make a fair point here. Titles are hallow and empty without the respect that should accompany them. I think you make important points about teaching our children to be respectful. Thanks for your thoughts.But a case could be made that eschewing proper ecclesiastical titles does not promote such respect but in fact does the opposite. Some may disagree with that, but in the case of such disagreement, whose role is it to make the adjudication? It is theirs who have been called and set apart to lead the Church. Otherwise, administration of the Church would be a chaotic mess with everyone acting as a law unto himself.
sethpayne Posted July 16, 2015 Posted July 16, 2015 But what happens when the Brethren, acting under inspiration from God, understand them differently than you do? Do I follow the Lord's anointed, or do I follow the gospel according to sethpayne? I follow the Holy Spirit. Both John 14 and Moroni 10 seem to suggest this may be a good way to go.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 16, 2015 Posted July 16, 2015 I follow the Holy Spirit. Both John 14 and Moroni 10 seem to suggest this may be a good way to go.That's not the question. Where you differ from the general leadership of the Church, do I follow them or you?
sethpayne Posted July 16, 2015 Posted July 16, 2015 Some may disagree with that, but in the case of such disagreement, whose role is it to make the adjudication? It is theirs who have been called and set apart to lead the Church. Otherwise, administration of the Church would be a chaotic mess with everyone acting as a law unto himself. I've met a few well-known religious leaders in my day. Not a lot. But a few. It was always interesting to see how they actively discouraged others from viewing them as being anything other than men/women. To get stuck on this title stuff seems to exalt the holder of the calling, rather than the calling itself.
sethpayne Posted July 16, 2015 Posted July 16, 2015 That's not the question.Where you differ from the general leadership of the Church, do I follow them or you? You too should follow the Holy Spirit. You certainly shouldn't follow me. 1
Popular Post Avatar4321 Posted July 17, 2015 Popular Post Posted July 17, 2015 Indeed I do. Very well put. The Scriptures are the Supreme Authority (man, I like the sound of that!) on questions of Church administration.I thought God was the Supreme Authority on everything in the Church. 5
Popular Post Avatar4321 Posted July 17, 2015 Popular Post Posted July 17, 2015 Two points:1) doesn't the Spirit encourage us to be humble and acknowledge authority? Then if we are following the Spirit shouldn't we be using proper titles to address people when appropriate?2) I'd like to hear more about president Nelson. Could we get back to that topic? 7
Duncan Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) Elder Nelson was the Sunday School Pres. in the 70's as Bro. Lloyd has pointed out and one of his counselours was Joseph B. Wirthlin. Then Joseph B. Wirthlin became a General Authority and so now he was responsible for the General Sunday School and so his former President, Pres. Nelson now had to report to Elder Wirthlin so I guess be careful how you treat your counselours!!!! But I love this moment from General Conference involving these two great brethren Edited July 17, 2015 by Duncan 3
Scott Lloyd Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) I've met a few well-known religious leaders in my day. Not a lot. But a few. It was always interesting to see how they actively discouraged others from viewing them as being anything other than men/women.To get stuck on this title stuff seems to exalt the holder of the calling, rather than the calling itself.I've met quite a few myself -- including President Nelson and President Packer. Without exception, I've found them to be as you have described here. Which leads me to believe it is misguided to think that ecclesiastical titles and protocol are driven by elitism or aggrandizement or any other nasty motive you have suggested here. Rather, I believe it has to do with deference toward the divinely appointed position. I don't see myself stuck on titles. Rather, I see it as something we are asked to do, with which I cheerfully comply, even as I obey the directive to use consecrated oil in the administration of priesthood blessings, even though I know Almighty God can and occasionally does bestow blessings even when there has been no oil present. Edited July 17, 2015 by Scott Lloyd 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 Elder Nelson was the Sunday School Pres. in the 70's as Bro. Lloyd has pointed out and one of his counselours was Joseph B. Wirthlin. Then Joseph B. Wirthlin became a General Authority and so now he was responsible for the General Sunday School and so his former President, Pres. Nelson now had to report to Elder Wirthlin so I guess be careful how you treat your counselours!!!!But I love this moment from General Conference involving these two great brethrenhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdedmKHw84wInteresting. Thanks for that recollection. On a related note, when I was stake Sunday School president, one of the ward Sunday School president's I advised is now my bishop. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 Two points:1) doesn't the Spirit encourage us to be humble and acknowledge authority? Then if we are following the Spirit shouldn't we be using proper titles to address people when appropriate?2) I'd like to hear more about president Nelson. Could we get back to that topic?Hear, Hear!
sunstoned Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 I think Russell Nelson will make a very good president should the opportunity present itself. He seems to be in good health.
sethpayne Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 I've met quite a few myself -- including President Nelson and President Packer. Without exception, I've found them to be as you have described here. Which leads me to believe it is misguided to think that ecclesiastical titles and protocol are driven by elitism or aggrandizement or any other nasty motive you have suggested here. Rather, I believe it has to do with deference toward the divinely appointed position. I don't see myself stuck on titles. Rather, I see it as something we are asked to do, with which I cheerfully comply, even as I obey the directive to use consecrated oil in the administration of priesthood blessings, even though I know Almighty God can and occasionally does bestow blessings even when there has been no oil present. Scott -- you have got to stop making up stories, man. Such lies and misrepresentation are unbecoming of one who enjoys lecturing others on what it means to be a Christian. Do not call others liars or use their names without permission in sig lines.
sethpayne Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 I thought God was the Supreme Authority on everything in the Church. Is God not the author of Scripture?
Calm Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) Scott -- you have got to stop making up stories, man. Such lies and misrepresentation are unbecoming of one who enjoys lecturing others on what it means to be a Christian.I suspect he reads this section as the "nasty motive" given that it has been reported in the thread that President Nelson is someone who encourages what he sees as proper usage of titles. To get stuck on this title stuff seems to exalt the holder of the calling, rather than the calling itself. OTOH, your first comment seemed to suggest to me that you saw those who have titles as primarily humble etc. and you are not talking about them in the comment I quote. But it is a bit ambiguous and I may be wrong in your intent. Personally I think both of you are misreading the other and it is escalating into assuming the worse pretty much every time now. It is unfortunate because I highly respect both of you and I am only saying this publicly because you two are both being public about your disagreements. Edited July 17, 2015 by calmoriah 2
Mystery Meat Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 Elder Nelson was the Sunday School Pres. in the 70's as Bro. Lloyd has pointed out and one of his counselours was Joseph B. Wirthlin. Then Joseph B. Wirthlin became a General Authority and so now he was responsible for the General Sunday School and so his former President, Pres. Nelson now had to report to Elder Wirthlin so I guess be careful how you treat your counselours!!!! But I love this moment from General Conference involving these two great brethren To this day the most powerful moment in GC I have ever witnessed. 4
Avatar4321 Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 Is God not the author of Scripture?How does that change the fact that Our Father is the ultimate authority and not the scriptures?The scriptures are authoritative because they contain His Words and the Words of those He called to testify to the world
Calm Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) To this day the most powerful moment in GC I have ever witnessed.And it was a perfect visual aid to the talk. Apparently Elder Wirthlin had locked his knees and that resulted in his muscles twitching and thus the shaking (kind of like weightlifting and trying to hold it up) according to the report below. It felt like a minor miracle that he managed to finish, not really missing a beat. He was so committed to getting that message of love out, he wasn't going to let anything stop him. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/695217731/Locked-knees-made-Elder-Wirthlin-shake.html?pg=all Edited July 17, 2015 by calmoriah 3
Scott Lloyd Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) Is God not the author of Scripture?God is no more the Author of scripture than He is the Author of the words, thoughts, impressions, feelings, motives, etc. that He puts into the minds and hearts of His living oracles by which He directs His Church from day to day and moment to moment. Edited July 18, 2015 by Scott Lloyd 3
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