A Bunch Of Talk

[CV75]

I truly do think God may lead someone out of the Church.

Virtually every verse in D&C 1 indicates otherwise.

[stemelbow]

Virtually every verse in D&C 1 indicates otherwise.

On my view I can't see how one can interpret one of them to say otherwise. But, that's how our life turns out, huh? We all read scripture differently and tend to get different things out of the sacred works.

[Calm]

Allows them to leave without putting obstacles in their way, including perhaps not have the Spirit inform them leaving is wrong if they don't bother asking and continues to bless them as they seek him outside of the LDS faith, I can see that easily. I don't think it is the Spirit teaching people to leave the faith though because it is better 'out there' for them except in very rare conditions (I can think where the Church community itself is so identified by the individual with an experience of abuse they can't see past that and because it was someone else's vile sin that placed them in a currently emotionally harmful situation, the Lord might take them someplace else in order to heal so in time the Church can mean the Gospel to them and not abuse, but many who have been abused have found great peace here so i think if that occurs, it is an exception). I can see the Spirit teaching the Church is not a good fit for you with your current understandings and behaviour now (not saying in those precise words, but basic message is that) and some interpreting that as direction to leave but the Spirit was rather instructing that they needed to choose a path...the better one being to change and grow into the Gospel and the community that teaches and supports it best (imo) rather than leave because another way resonates with their current self in ways they currently believe are important.

[Calm]

I see the Church as much like a university teaching the Gospel. Outside the university people can accomplish great things, can learn about the Gospel in many ways, can sustain themselves and have great, even fantastically happy lives without studying and being taught gospel growth through the university process. And because there isn't the same sort of direction discoveries can be made there by some who are highly self directed and driven that might not take place in that way within the more structured faith community. That does not mean outside is better for the ultimate fulfillment of personal growth, it is just different and different can still be very, very good if individuals dont just allow themselves to drift along.

However the Church provides unique experiences tailoured to spiritual growth in enough variety with support of the community that I think the vast majority of people could reach a fuller growth within the Church than outside of it just as a great university can provide resources that concentrate and direct learning so much can occur over a shorter period of time for those who make use of it. And a great university can adapt to the needs of those who aren't able to study in the typical way, often more effectively than what often amounts to trial and error attempts outside a spirit and God directed learning environment. The communities of the Church do not always exist at the level of a great university just as a few departments may be very lacking in a university, but the greater community can help bring those up over time...just as in the Church we are working towards a Zion community and those who are closer to it than others can help.

People can drift inside university walls just like outside it, but if they choose to be actively engaged in their lives (and i don't equate that with time filling activity, but rather wise and faithful decision making), I think the resources for growth are more concentrated and accessible for most people inside; thus it is easier to 'excel' so to speak. There is also a constant attention/emphasis on spiritual growth to remind us of its value in our lives, helpful in resisting the many attractions of life that may distract us from our most important desire.

And while ordinances are essential eternally speaking and there is great benefit from them in our lives as certain types of progress may be delayed until we receive them, they are not essential in order to have good lives in the here and now and people will get any opportunity they lacked that they need in the postmortal spirit world. But there will be consequences for rejection of any type of growth opportunity including the ones offered outside the Church even if those consequences are not eternal because of acceptance of the Atonement.

Edited July 16, 2015 by calmoriah

[stemelbow]

I see the Church as much like a university teaching the Gospel. Outside the university people can accomplish great things, can learn about the Gospel in many ways, can sustain themselves and have great, even fantastically happy lives without studying and being taught gospel growth through the university process. And because there isn't the same sort of direction discoveries can be made there by some who are highly self directed and driven that might not take place in that way within the more structured faith community. That does not mean outside is better for the ultimate fulfillment of personal growth, it is just different and different can still be very, very good if individuals dont just allow themselves to drift along.

However the Church provides unique experiences tailoured to spiritual growth in enough variety with support of the community that I think the vast majority of people could reach a fuller growth within the Church than outside of it just as a great university can provide resources that concentrate and direct learning so much can occur over a shorter period of time for those who make use of it. And a great university can adapt to the needs of those who aren't able to study in the typical way, often more effectively than what often amounts to trial and error attempts outside a spirit and God directed learning environment. The communities of the Church do not always exist at the level of a great university just as a few departments may be very lacking in a university, but the greater community can help bring those up over time...just as in the Church we are working towards a Zion community and those who are closer to it than others can help.

People can drift inside university walls just like outside it, but if they choose to be actively engaged in their lives (and i don't equate that with time filling activity, but rather wise and faithful decision making), I think the resources for growth are more concentrated and accessible for most people inside; thus it is easier to 'excel' so to speak. There is also a constant attention/emphasis on spiritual growth to remind us of its value in our lives, helpful in resisting the many attractions of life that may distract us from our most important desire.

And while ordinances are essential eternally speaking and there is great benefit from them in our lives as certain types of progress may be delayed until we receive them, they are not essential in order to have good lives in the here and now and people will get any opportunity they lacked that they need in the postmortal spirit world. But there will be consequences for rejection of any type of growth opportunity including the ones offered outside the Church even if those consequences are not eternal because of acceptance of the Atonement.

I can appreciate this perspective, but I also would accept the notion that more people alive today that our outside the Church, and remain that way for mortality, will find themselves exalted than the number of people inside it. Thus, to consider such a possibility I also must maintain, then, that the "blessings" of the Church, though seemingly significant to the Church member now, really aren't any more than anyone else has, eternally speaking. From my earliest days, as I recall, I have felt quite uncomfortable with the typical Church member's expressed gratitude for blessings. What seems so grand to us now may be no more than what others have. Our gratitude, if there be any, should never be expressed in front of a crowd so much as demonstrated in life.

[CV75]

On my view I can't see how one can interpret one of them to say otherwise. But, that's how our life turns out, huh? We all read scripture differently and tend to get different things out of the sacred works.

Where in the sacred works does the Lord state His intention to lead people out of the Restored Church (or out of His kingdom in any dispensation), and to what end?

 

Since I brought up D&C 1 and you can’t see how I interpret it, please share your take on it by providing an example of where the Lord led someone out of the Restored Church to “seal both on earth and in heaven” (v. 8 );establish the ordinances, covenants and fullness of the gospel (vs. 15, 22, 23); “lay the foundation of … the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth” (v. 30); and to “[search] these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled.” (v. 37).

Edited July 16, 2015 by CV75

[stemelbow]

Where in the sacred works does the Lord state His intention to lead people out of the Restored Church (or out of His kingdom in any dispensation), and to what end?

Why must we feel obliged to limit God to the standard works? They are, as Mfbukowski noted, a bunch of talk.

 

Since I brought up D&C 1 and you can’t see how I interpret it, please share your take on it by providing an example of where the Lord led someone out of the Restored Church to “seal both on earth and in heaven” (v. 8 );establish the ordinances, covenants and fullness of the gospel (vs. 15, 22, 23); “lay the foundation of … the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth” (v. 30); and to “[search] these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled.” (v. 37).

I didn't say D&C1 says the Lord will lead or has lead people out of the Church. And I certainly don't see the verses you list as saying He won't lead people out in order to accomplish His designs.

[CV75]

more people alive today that our outside the Church, and remain that way for mortality, will find themselves exalted than the number of people inside it

And how do they get to exaltation? The Lord leads them into His Church! At some point they will all have to receive the ordinances of salvation, even if by proxy in the temple, during the Millennium, throught the auspicies of the Restored Church. It is precisely due to the the vast number of souls not entering His earthly kingdom in mortality that baptism for the dead was "was instituted from before the foundation of the world" (D&C 124:33) -- all this was known from the foundation of teh world, and the Lord was always leading us into His Church.

[CV75]

Why must we feel obliged to limit God to the standard works? They are, as Mfbukowski noted, a bunch of talk.

 

I didn't say D&C1 says the Lord will lead or has lead people out of the Church. And I certainly don't see the verses you list as saying He won't lead people out in order to accomplish His designs.

Please don't dodge: If He hasn't led people out of the Church for those same purposes for which He leads people into and to stay with the Church, please share some examples of how He led someone out of the Church to accomplish some other purpose, and what that purpose is--is there no precedent?

[mfbukowski]

Why must we feel obliged to limit God to the standard works? They are, as Mfbukowski noted, a bunch of talk.

 

CFR

[CV75]

oops

Edited July 16, 2015 by CV75

[ksfisher]

I see the Church as much like a university teaching the Gospel. Outside the university people can accomplish great things, can learn about the Gospel in many ways, can sustain themselves and have great, even fantastically happy lives without studying and being taught gospel growth through the university process. And because there isn't the same sort of direction discoveries can be made there by some who are highly self directed and driven that might not take place in that way within the more structured faith community. That does not mean outside is better for the ultimate fulfillment of personal growth, it is just different and different can still be very, very good if individuals dont just allow themselves to drift along.

However the Church provides unique experiences tailoured to spiritual growth in enough variety with support of the community that I think the vast majority of people could reach a fuller growth within the Church than outside of it just as a great university can provide resources that concentrate and direct learning so much can occur over a shorter period of time for those who make use of it. And a great university can adapt to the needs of those who aren't able to study in the typical way, often more effectively than what often amounts to trial and error attempts outside a spirit and God directed learning environment. The communities of the Church do not always exist at the level of a great university just as a few departments may be very lacking in a university, but the greater community can help bring those up over time...just as in the Church we are working towards a Zion community and those who are closer to it than others can help.

People can drift inside university walls just like outside it, but if they choose to be actively engaged in their lives (and i don't equate that with time filling activity, but rather wise and faithful decision making), I think the resources for growth are more concentrated and accessible for most people inside; thus it is easier to 'excel' so to speak. There is also a constant attention/emphasis on spiritual growth to remind us of its value in our lives, helpful in resisting the many attractions of life that may distract us from our most important desire.

And while ordinances are essential eternally speaking and there is great benefit from them in our lives as certain types of progress may be delayed until we receive them, they are not essential in order to have good lives in the here and now and people will get any opportunity they lacked that they need in the postmortal spirit world. But there will be consequences for rejection of any type of growth opportunity including the ones offered outside the Church even if those consequences are not eternal because of acceptance of the Atonement.

 

Here's a quote by Elder Bednar from a recent training:

 

"The basic purpose of all we teach and all that we do in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is to make available the priesthood authority and gospel ordinances and covenants that enable a man and a woman and their children to be sealed together and be happy at home."

[mfbukowski]

Here's a quote by Elder Bednar from a recent training:

 

"The basic purpose of all we teach and all that we do in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is to make available the priesthood authority and gospel ordinances and covenants that enable a man and a woman and their children to be sealed together and be happy at home."

Bravo, Right On, Cheers and Hallelujahs !!

 

A more brilliant and simpler formulation of the entire gospel has never been uttered.  I love that guy!  He is incredible!  I have seen that video and it is truly amazing.  Thanks for posting it!

 

THIS is the antidote to "a bunch of talk".  Here is the gospel in its essence in like what- 25 words or less?  Wonderful stuff!

[Calm]

"I also must maintain, then, that the "blessings" of the Church, though seemingly significant to the Church member now, really aren't any more than anyone else has, eternally speaking"

Eternally speaking I would tend to agree (though as CV points out, exaltation requires being led to Christ's Church sometime, whether it is in the early days, meridan of time, latterdays or postmortal ones), but why not seek out for the best possible life as soon as possible, especially to be able to avoid adding burdens to others' lives through ignorant (as in unknowing) sins?

Why not put off going to university or getting married until one is in one's eighties? Eternally speaking it doesn't really matter if one has a degree given that we probably will have to relearn much of what we were taught and it is probably equivalent to preschool eternally speaking. Who cares if we miss out on enjoying in an educated way art, literature, science, etc. as long as we can budget decently and sign our names to the paychecks and mortages and credit receipts? Life is simpler unmarried, our money goes farther without kids. Why do anything that pushes us to become something new if we are happy the way we are?

If something has made a difference in our lives that we believe is from God, it seems to me ungrateful to hide that gratitude out of fear of others, whether it is expressed or acted out. Just don't be arrogant about it as in "my blessings are better than others" as opposed to "I am so grateful to God for blessing me with the Gospel because it has helped me be a better person".

Edited July 16, 2015 by calmoriah

[stemelbow]

Please don't dodge: If He hasn't led people out of the Church for those same purposes for which He leads people into and to stay with the Church, please share some examples of how He led someone out of the Church to accomplish some other purpose, and what that purpose is--is there no precedent?

I'm not dodging, or not intending to. This isn't meant to be a dodge either, but I see no reason to think we must have a precedent. So I'm not sure I need an example because I can't see the end from the beginning anyway.

[stemelbow]

And how do they get to exaltation? The Lord leads them into His Church!

Not if they never join His Church.

At some point they will all have to receive the ordinances of salvation, even if by proxy in the temple, during the Millennium, throught the auspicies of the Restored Church.

Everyone will, we are told, so no biggie there for anyone.

It is precisely due to the the vast number of souls not entering His earthly kingdom in mortality that baptism for the dead was "was instituted from before the foundation of the world" (D&C 124:33) -- all this was known from the foundation of teh world, and the Lord was always leading us into His Church.

Less so into His Church but moreso into His kingdom, I'd say. His Church is just earthly, it seems to me.

[stemelbow]

CFR

I think I missed your point in page one of this page. I thought you were suggesting that scripture is just talk. But I see, as I look back, you were asking a question, so it seems likely you did not intend what I thought you intended. My apologies.

[stemelbow]

Bravo, Right On, Cheers and Hallelujahs !!

 

A more brilliant and simpler formulation of the entire gospel has never been uttered.  I love that guy!  He is incredible!  I have seen that video and it is truly amazing.  Thanks for posting it!

 

THIS is the antidote to "a bunch of talk".  Here is the gospel in its essence in like what- 25 words or less?  Wonderful stuff!

I have a slight quibble with his quote.

"The basic purpose of all we teach and all that we do in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is to make available the priesthood authority and gospel ordinances and covenants that enable a man and a woman and their children to be sealed together and be happy at home."

Rather than being the basic purpose so people can be happy and sealed at home, it seems more like the basic purpose is so people can be sealed eternally and find joy and purpose in eternity. Some in mortality, though members of the Church and all that, may never really achieve happiness in their homes here.

[Calm]

. His Church is just earthly, it seems to me.

Not according to the scriptures though. Search for "Church of the Firstborn".

Easy summary:

"The Church of the Firstborn is Christ's heavenly church, and its members are exalted beings who gain an inheritance in the highest heaven of the celestial world and for whom the family continues in eternity."

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Church_of_the_Firstborn

[stemelbow]

"I also must maintain, then, that the "blessings" of the Church, though seemingly significant to the Church member now, really aren't any more than anyone else has, eternally speaking"

Eternally speaking I would tend to agree (though as CV points out, exaltation requires being led to Christ's Church sometime, whether it is in the early days, meridan of time, latterdays or postmortal ones), but why not seek out for the best possible life as soon as possible, especially to be able to avoid adding burdens to others' lives through ignorant (as in unknowing) sins?

not sure that members of the Church have the best possible lives. While I agree that more members would be nice, the way we're currently constituted, we aren't really going to spread to many homes in the world, relatively speaking (less than 1% of the world tends to have that effect). Someday hopefully we approach the world with more open arms.

Why not put off going to university or getting married until one is in one's eighties? Eternally speaking it doesn't really matter if one has a degree given that we probably will have to relearn much of what we were taught and it is probably equivalent to preschool eternally speaking. Who cares if we miss out on enjoying in an educated way art, literature, science, etc. as long as we can budget decently and sign our names to the paychecks and mortages and credit receipts? Life is simpler unmarried, our money goes farther without kids. Why do anything that pushes us to become something new if we are happy the way we are?

To each their own. if anyone feels as much, and God approves of the direction of that person, who am I to say anything. I mean say anything at all? I'm no one.

If something has made a difference in our lives that we believe is from God, it seems to me ungrateful to hide that gratitude out of fear of others, whether it is expressed or acted out. Just don't be arrogant about it as in "my blessings are better than others" as opposed to "I am so grateful to God for blessing me with the Gospel because it has helped me be a better person".

Better than what? How do you know if you didn't have the gospel if you would be better or worse than you are? We would never know that, really. And since many in this world, who are not LDS, are just as good if not better, in so many ways, than LDS, why do we think we are blessed to have the gospel and they are not?

[CV75]

I'm not dodging, or not intending to. This isn't meant to be a dodge either, but I see no reason to think we must have a precedent. So I'm not sure I need an example because I can't see the end from the beginning anyway.

Puh-leeze...

 

You really have no examples for the position you hold that the Lord leads people out of the LDS Church to accomplish His designs and what those designs might be? And you have no vision of how the position you hold would play out? Why did you even bring it up?

[CV75]

Not if they never join His Church.

He certainly leads them to the water but He can't make them dunk.

 

Everyone will, we are told, so no biggie there for anyone.

That is precisely why it is a biggie: everyone will receive the saving ordnances, living or by proxy, through the LDS Church.

 

Less so into His Church but moreso into His kingdom, I'd say. His Church is just earthly, it seems to me.

It is just as esssential: without the earthly Church / kingdom there would be no link or passageway into the heavenly Church / kingdom. The earthly kingdom is where the ordinances must performed, that is why they are done by proxy. That is why the Lord's servants in this life's earthly kingdom continue to preside over its actions in the spirit world. The earthly kingdom is what is operating in the spirit world. That is how it was set up from before the foundation of the world.

 

Of course the earthly Church will give way to the Church of the Firstborn (and whatever other churches might be set up undet its authority to administer the lesser kingdoms) -- but let's not be too eager for its demise or too quick to minimize its importance to the point that the Lord actually leads people out of the Restored Church to accomplish any divine purpose that supercedes those stated in D&C 1.

[Meadowchik]

"I also must maintain, then, that the "blessings" of the Church, though seemingly significant to the Church member now, really aren't any more than anyone else has, eternally speaking"

Eternally speaking I would tend to agree (though as CV points out, exaltation requires being led to Christ's Church sometime, whether it is in the early days, meridan of time, latterdays or postmortal ones), but why not seek out for the best possible life as soon as possible, especially to be able to avoid adding burdens to others' lives through ignorant (as in unknowing) sins?

Why not put off going to university or getting married until one is in one's eighties? Eternally speaking it doesn't really matter if one has a degree given that we probably will have to relearn much of what we were taught and it is probably equivalent to preschool eternally speaking. Who cares if we miss out on enjoying in an educated way art, literature, science, etc. as long as we can budget decently and sign our names to the paychecks and mortages and credit receipts? Life is simpler unmarried, our money goes farther without kids. Why do anything that pushes us to become something new if we are happy the way we are?

If something has made a difference in our lives that we believe is from God, it seems to me ungrateful to hide that gratitude out of fear of others, whether it is expressed or acted out. Just don't be arrogant about it as in "my blessings are better than others" as opposed to "I am so grateful to God for blessing me with the Gospel because it has helped me be a better person".

 

Yup, eternal life starts now!

[stemelbow]

Not according to the scriptures though. Search for "Church of the Firstborn".

Easy summary:

"The Church of the Firstborn is Christ's heavenly church, and its members are exalted beings who gain an inheritance in the highest heaven of the celestial world and for whom the family continues in eternity."

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Church_of_the_Firstborn

Yes. I see the Church of the Firstborn, as many have explained to me, to be not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, but an invisible Church without borders, which perhaps encompasses some LDS and some not LDS.

[stemelbow]

Puh-leeze...

 

You really have no examples for the position you hold that the Lord leads people out of the LDS Church to accomplish His designs and what those designs might be? And you have no vision of how the position you hold would play out? Why did you even bring it up?

Because it's my belief. It's a piece of what I call my faith. I don't need to see the end result in order to feel this way, and frankly even if I knew someone whom God led out, I can't prove it was so...not until we're all standing up there with God.