A Bunch Of Talk

[hagoth7]

What am I on trial? 

 

I believe a true prophet or prophetess, it can run the gamut, should not lead a people astray, that is the sign of a false prophet. The LDS prophets now are very careful to not do that.  I do believe in most of their words, they have a lot of wisdom.  

You're not on trial - at least not by my reckoning. If you've gotten that impression, you've completely misunderstood my meaning.

 

Regards.

[Meadowchik]

I think it's easy to think that such cacaphony is new and unique to us. But it's not, and I think will be part of any human interaction with the divine.

We talk things out.

So marvelous about the Gospel, though, is the concept of personal revelation existing alongside prophetic revelation.

[Tacenda]

You're not on trial - at least not by my reckoning. If you've gotten that impression, you've completely misunderstood my meaning.

Regards.

You apparently don't know me well enough to know I was playing. I wasn't serious about being on trial. I appreciate your even talking to me.

[stemelbow]

The goal is not to "connect with current and past leaders words" but to connect with God thru personal revelation.

Awesome. I agree. I just wish that message was understood by all.

[stemelbow]

How do you know scripture is not "just talk"?

 

Who do you think wrote the stuff?  God with his finger or quill pen?

 

No he used very human prophets.  Get used to the idea.

I'm used to it. Not sure what you mean, but I have no issue with scripture being written by human prophets.

[mfbukowski]

I'm used to it. Not sure what you mean, but I have no issue with scripture being written by human prophets.

Sorry, I guess I misinterpreted your quote here. It sounded to me that you were complaining about the uncertainty of having a human prophet. Guess I got it wrong.

 

Sitting in Church yesterday someone chimed in with quotes from past leaders saying, essentially, if current leaders' words/ideas don't mesh with what's found in the canon of scripture then we know the leader's words are merely his opinion. You guys know the quotes. We have way too many annoying quotes from past leaders that contradict. One other oft-repeated structured opinion is leaders won't lead us astray, also, current prophets are more important than the past ones.

Ugh...what's going on here? I tend to think over time any charismatic start up loses. We've been going at this for closing in on 200 years. I mean we're doing pretty well in maintaining, but over time, we find too much contradiction, too many conflicting messages. Just too much talk...too much men mingling their ideas with scripture.

Have we talked ourselves off the path God wants us on? It seems very possible to me. Odd because for years I've been advocating more open communication is needed in Church...but yesterday I had some thing hit me saying, stop talking. Just sit and ponder, quietly without all this repeated cacophony of confusing quotables from the past.

Church is amounting to, more and more, people concluding well, God's in charge and He'll figure out how to make things right, as people can't quite connect with current and past leaders words.

Edited July 14, 2015 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Make this simple for me.

So a bunch of talk is a good thing or a bad one?

I am obviously missing something.

[stemelbow]

Sorry, I guess I misinterpreted your quote here. It sounded to me that you were complaining about the uncertainty of having a human prophet. Guess I got it wrong.

Well I tried to suggest it is difficult to wade through life when we have prophets and yet we find that these prophets at various times contradict each other--and often as is the case, us individuals just take whichever quotes and opinions we like. Such should be the case, but as is assumed, it seems quite often, leaders don't err. We should not, I am told, regard them as capable of leading anyone astray, and that we should follow the prophet, as one past prophet (at least) indicated, even if he is wrong. Uncertainty becomes the name of our game on this earth. That just is. Sure. I guess that can lead to difficulty and confusion itself. My question and concern here is has difficulty and confusion reached a point where we might, as a Church, have found ourselves off the created path God laid out for us? I think it's possible. It might not take much for us to get back on the path, but it's possible we've found ourselves off of it and not realize it.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The goal is not to "connect with current and past leaders words" but to connect with God thru personal revelation.

One interesting thing about all of this is that we are not to assume that the prophets are wrong about something if we cannot find it in the cannon of scripture and wait for them to be proven right. Too much of that seems to go on.

 

We are to accept on faith that they are correct unless something comes along later that clarifies or straighten out a previous positions. We are also told to seek the guidance of the HG when any ideas are presented.

[Ahab]

Make this simple for me.

So a bunch of talk is a good thing or a bad one?

Depends on who is talking and whether you [generic for any person] likes what they're saying.

Some people have stoned or otherwise killed true prophets of God after hearing what they said so those people likely didn't think that what they were hearing was good. And yet some other people did and do think it was good.

I am obviously missing something.

Obviously.

[mfbukowski]

So a bunch of talk is not surprising for human prophets, and it can lead us off God's path, and the only way we can know God's path is through prophets.

That's quite a corner you have painted us into.

Somehow I think maybe that is a tad pessimistic.

[mfbukowski]

Time for everyone to take their ball and go home I guess. We are stuck with no alternatives. Woe is us

[stemelbow]

So a bunch of talk is not surprising for human prophets, and it can lead us off God's path, and the only way we can know God's path is through prophets.

That's quite a corner you have painted us into.

Somehow I think maybe that is a tad pessimistic.

Is it (the bolded part)? I thought we decided more important than prophets for the individual is individual spirit association with God.

Somehow your view is a tad pessimistic for my tastes.

[sethpayne]

Gee, who wrote "the Word"? yup, Prophets.

So why are dead Prophets better than living Prophets to you?

 

Elder McConkie taught that very thing.  Dead prophets trump living prophets until those living prophets die and their words somehow end up in the Canon.

Edited July 14, 2015 by sethpayne

[mfbukowski]

Is it (the bolded part)? I thought we decided more important than prophets for the individual is individual spirit association with God.

Somehow your view is a tad pessimistic for my tastes.

I am not at all pessimistic- I was being sarcastic about your post.

I still have no clue what this is about, it just seems like complaining with no solution offered, or even a problem defined.

I mean if it said "THIS is what is wrong with the process" then we could have something to discuss.

But it's just "we have human prophets but all they give us is talk, but that is the best we have, and so we might be going astray"

What's the point you are trying to make??

Edited July 14, 2015 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

I mean look at this.
 

Well I tried to suggest it is difficult to wade through life when we have prophets and yet we find that these prophets at various times contradict each other--and often as is the case, us individuals just take whichever quotes and opinions we like. Such should be the case,

Huh? If such should be the case, what's the problem- aha- but a "but" follows...

but as is assumed, it seems quite often, leaders don't err. We should not, I am told, regard them as capable of leading anyone astray, and that we should follow the prophet, as one past prophet (at least) indicated, even if he is wrong.

 

But yet "such should be the case" as per above I guess??  I mean if there is disagreement- what do we do?  What's the point?
 

 

Uncertainty becomes the name of our game on this earth. That just is.

 

Uh yeah, you have said that now a couple of times

Sure. I guess that can lead to difficulty and confusion itself. My question and concern here is has difficulty and confusion reached a point where we might, as a Church, have found ourselves off the created path God laid out for us?

 

I don't know- what do YOU think?  And how would we know that either way??
 

 

I think it's possible. It might not take much for us to get back on the path, but it's possible we've found ourselves off of it and not realize it.

 

Yeah- so??  What's the solution?  I still don't know what your point is.  If the prophets are messed up and can't tell us God's will how do we "realize or not realize it??"

 

It might be this it might be that and maybe that's good and maybe its bad.

 

???????

 

A Bunch of Talk is exactly right!

Edited July 14, 2015 by mfbukowski

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

It might be this it might be that and maybe that's good and maybe its bad.

 

???????

 

A Bunch of Talk is exactly right!

LOl you go that right.

[stemelbow]

I mean look at this.

 

Huh? If such should be the case, what's the problem- aha- but a "but" follows...

But yet "such should be the case" as per above I guess??  I mean if there is disagreement- what do we do?  What's the point?

I expressed how this seeming contradiction, or at least, difference of opinion is difficult. It's not easy. I'm not sure why that's hard to grasp.

 

Uh yeah, you have said that now a couple of times

I don't know- what do YOU think?  And how would we know that either way??

Exactly. I'm not saying I know or can know. I'm asking the question you just posed, essentially. Any ideas? It's possible we're off in our direction. how would we know if we are or not?

 

Yeah- so??  What's the solution?  I still don't know what your point is.  If the prophets are messed up and can't tell us God's will how do we "realize or not realize it??"

Beats me. That's why I started this to see if any ideas are floating around out there, beyond, well each individual can consult God and determine for him/herself. That's great. But what if an individual has a better direction mapped out, as per God's help, than our prophets and apostles? We'd probably feel forced to shout that person out.

 

It might be this it might be that and maybe that's good and maybe its bad.

 

???????

 

A Bunch of Talk is exactly right!

I'm glad you have approved of the title of this thread. We can talk forever and in circles--which is what Church often amounts to (which I'm not saying is necessarily a bad thing).

[stemelbow]

I am not at all pessimistic- I was being sarcastic about your post.

I still have no clue what this is about, it just seems like complaining with no solution offered, or even a problem defined.

I mean if it said "THIS is what is wrong with the process" then we could have something to discuss.

But it's just "we have human prophets but all they give us is talk, but that is the best we have, and so we might be going astray"

What's the point you are trying to make??

I'm not sure. That's all. I think it possible, as I believe Teryl Givens pointed out, that over time any org lead by revelation from God will lose steam, will lose knowledge, will lose position, will lose truths. How would we know? Some say we know because we simply don't receive revelation anymore. nothing new, anyway. Maybe. Maybe God has no need to send us more. Maybe as some indicate, we have enough (which eerily sounds like warnings in the BoM).

I'm not trying to make this difficult or impossible. I realize I don't have the solution either. I'm just pointing out the possible difficulties and confusions we face and pose the question what can we do?

[mfbukowski]

I'm not sure. That's all. I think it possible, as I believe Teryl Givens pointed out, that over time any org lead by revelation from God will lose steam, will lose knowledge, will lose position, will lose truths. How would we know? Some say we know because we simply don't receive revelation anymore. nothing new, anyway. Maybe. Maybe God has no need to send us more. Maybe as some indicate, we have enough (which eerily sounds like warnings in the BoM).

I'm not trying to make this difficult or impossible. I realize I don't have the solution either. I'm just pointing out the possible difficulties and confusions we face and pose the question what can we do?

Where did he say that??

 

And what can we do?  Already answered- what we should always do anyway- seek the spirit.

 

This is nothing new.  All converts know that the only way you should listen to the prophets anyway is by praying about it.  That is the last line of defense anyway.  It seems "lifers" are the only ones concerned with questions about the prophets because perhaps they have never questioned that they SHOULD follow a prophet to begin with.

 

Following a prophet at all in this contemporary world is a VERY weird idea.  It seems most people born in the church have no idea that is the case and then they worry about a prophet "leading them astray".

 

Prophets cannot possibly "lead us astray" if you are skeptical about them actually BEING prophets from the beginning and base your testimony of the prophets on what God has already told you- "Follow this guy and check in with me often, and I will tell you if he messes up"

 

Mormons do not appreciate the wisdom of the prophets and want it all handed to them on a silver platter- a new revelation daily please. 

 

"Oh- gay marriage- just that?  Not good enough- tell us when we are moving to Missouri.  Besides I kind of like the idea of gay marriage.  Now about the location of Kolob....."

 

THAT is the typical Mormon complaint about prophets.   If you realized how totally WEIRD it is to follow a "prophet" you would be checking with God daily to see if "he messed up yet".  You would be evaluating every principle and practice on a constant basis trying to see their point and whether or not it is right.

 

You would not worry about a prophet leading us astray because THIS MORNING God told me that "all is well in Zion- well a few bumps, but what do you expect?"

 

That's what he told me- what did he tell you??

Edited July 15, 2015 by mfbukowski

[DJBrown]

Sitting in Church yesterday someone chimed in with quotes from past leaders saying, essentially, if current leaders' words/ideas don't mesh with what's found in the canon of scripture then we know the leader's words are merely his opinion. You guys know the quotes. We have way too many annoying quotes from past leaders that contradict. One other oft-repeated structured opinion is leaders won't lead us astray, also, current prophets are more important than the past ones.

Ugh...what's going on here? I tend to think over time any charismatic start up loses. We've been going at this for closing in on 200 years. I mean we're doing pretty well in maintaining, but over time, we find too much contradiction, too many conflicting messages. Just too much talk...too much men mingling their ideas with scripture.

Have we talked ourselves off the path God wants us on? It seems very possible to me. Odd because for years I've been advocating more open communication is needed in Church...but yesterday I had some thing hit me saying, stop talking. Just sit and ponder, quietly without all this repeated cacophony of confusing quotables from the past.

Church is amounting to, more and more, people concluding well, God's in charge and He'll figure out how to make things right, as people can't quite connect with current and past leaders words.

 

What percentage of statements and teachings from the First Presidency are contradictory to past leaders?  Probably extremely small.

[KevinG]

What percentage of statements and teachings from the First Presidency are contradictory to past leaders?  Probably extremely small.

 

Yes, very minute.  However you can read all of them in condensed form on most anti or former Mormon sites.  Excerpted for the benefit of True Believing Mormon sheep no doubt.

[stemelbow]

Where did he say that??

I can't remember (if it was in one of his books or in an interview or both) and no doubt I took some liberties with what I do remember. I'd have to find the quote which may take some time.

 

And what can we do?  Already answered- what we should always do anyway- seek the spirit.

And if that's what we're left with then so be it. But as I said, if a single person or very few people out there have received spiritual information from God that the Prophets and apostles have no received then they most likely won't be heard. The rest of us may be still lost.

 

This is nothing new.  All converts know that the only way you should listen to the prophets anyway is by praying about it.  That is the last line of defense anyway.  It seems "lifers" are the only ones concerned with questions about the prophets because perhaps they have never questioned that they SHOULD follow a prophet to begin with.

Not only converts know that. Surely both converts and "lifers" pray, seek the Spirit, seek personal inspiration.

 

Following a prophet at all in this contemporary world is a VERY weird idea.  It seems most people born in the church have no idea that is the case and then they worry about a prophet "leading them astray".

Not from what I've seen. Most life-long members who I interact with don't worry a bit about being lead astray SOme do, but so do some converts. You've got a weird dichotomy in your head, it seems to me, a tad bit pessimistic it seems like.

 

Prophets cannot possibly "lead us astray" if you are skeptical about them actually BEING prophets from the beginning and base your testimony of the prophets on what God has already told you- "Follow this guy and check in with me often, and I will tell you if he messes up"

If a prophet is wrong about something and in his error leads people to think that say, black people are cursed as to the priesthood because of their behavior in the pre-mortal world, and followers are checking in with God regularly, and these followers never know the prophet was wrong, then it seems your conclusion here is faulty. Members then would be lead to think, in error, that black people were less valiant in pre-mortal world when that was not the case.

 

Mormons do not appreciate the wisdom of the prophets and want it all handed to them on a silver platter- a new revelation daily please.

What kind of poll are you going with? CFR please. I get nearly the opposite impression--members tend to venerate the wisdom of prophets to something more than it seems to actually be, it seems to me.  

 

"Oh- gay marriage- just that?  Not good enough- tell us when we are moving to Missouri.  Besides I kind of like the idea of gay marriage.  Now about the location of Kolob....."

Odd. I never heard members worry about when to move to Missouri, these days, and Kolob is only mentioned in passing, for jokes, and rarely someone pretends to understand something cosmologically and comments about it. That's the sum of it on my end. You must have a very different Mormon experience than me.

 

THAT is the typical Mormon complaint about prophets.   If you realized how totally WEIRD it is to follow a "prophet" you would be checking with God daily to see if "he messed up yet".  You would be evaluating every principle and practice on a constant basis trying to see their point and whether or not it is right.

 

You would not worry about a prophet leading us astray because THIS MORNING God told me that "all is well in Zion- well a few bumps, but what do you expect?"

 

That's what he told me- what did he tell you??

I have a feeling something is askew. But I may just be delusional. This is our problem it seems to me. You seem to think it not an issue at all.

[stemelbow]

What percentage of statements and teachings from the First Presidency are contradictory to past leaders?  Probably extremely small.

Surely. But, that doesn't mean it can't mean something very significant in the long run.

[stemelbow]

Yes, very minute.  However you can read all of them in condensed form on most anti or former Mormon sites.  Excerpted for the benefit of True Believing Mormon sheep no doubt.

I'm reminded of the analogy where people who follow a path and stray at one point just a bit, over time, tend to find themselves quite a ways off the path.

I'm like, who cares how good information comes to us, whatever source. Just take it in and let it help you.

People are so tribal.