Scott Lloyd Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) Continued use of the term "Swedish Rescue" conjures an image of wholesale hemorrhaging and apostasy of the Church in that land. As a returned Sweden missionary (1974-76) and the father of a soon-to-depart missionary to Sweden, I have given some unusual attention to conditions of the Church there. My wife (bless these missionary moms) has been devouring the blogs and other Internet content that pertain to the Stockholm mission. So I'm in a position to do some comparing. I'm happy to say that the Church in Sweden, never very large since the large-scale immigration of Swedish Latter-day Saints to Utah in the 1800s, seems a good deal stronger today than when I was there. It is numerically larger, for one thing, 9,000-10,000 members as opposed to 6,000 when I was there. Since I came home, a temple has been constructed in Stockholm and two others in nearby Copenhagen, Denmark and Helsinki, Finland. A member of the Seventy, Elder Per Malm, is from Sweden. Here's an article that gives some perspective on the strength of the Church there. Edited June 17, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
Duncan Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Continued use of the term "Swedish Rescue" conjures an image of wholesale hemorrhaging and apostasy of the Church in that land. As a returned Sweden missionary (1974-76) and the father of a soon-to-depart missionary to Sweden, I have given some unusual attention to conditions of the Church there. My wife (bless these missionary moms) has been devouring the blogs and other Internet content that pertain to the Stockholm mission. So I'm in a position to do some comparing. I'm happy to say that the Church in Sweden, never very large since the large-scale immigration of Swedish Latter-day Saints to Utah in the 1800s, seems a good deal stronger today than when I was there. It is numerically larger, for one thing, 9,000-10,000 members as opposed to 6,000 when I was there. Since I came home, a temple has been constructed in Stockholm and two others in nearby Copenhagen, Denmark and Helsinki, Finland. A member of the Seventy, Elder Per Malm, is from Sweden. Here's an article that gives some perspective on the strength of the Church there. About 10 ish years ago a Swedish convert came here to do her PHD in Astrophysics, she got it and has since moved away. I tried to get her to do a bio on Mormon Scholars Testify but she declined. She is very active and very smart in Sciencey stuff
rockpond Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Continued use of the term "Swedish Rescue" conjures an image of wholesale hemorrhaging and apostasy of the Church in that land. Be that as it may, "wholesale hemorrhaging and apostasy" is a subjective description. Everyone will understand that differently. It appears that the term "Swedish Rescue" came from letters authored by Elder Jensen (Jan 2012) and Elder Ingvar Olsson (Mar 2012). I look at it this way... these good men (Elder Jensen, Elder Turley, and Elder Oaks) are very busy men. Elder Oaks probably qualifies as extremely busy. If they decide that a special meeting is needed outside their normal process of communicating with members through stake and general conferences, then there must be a good reason.
HappyJackWagon Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Continued use of the term "Swedish Rescue" conjures an image of wholesale hemorrhaging and apostasy of the Church in that land. As a returned Sweden missionary (1974-76) and the father of a soon-to-depart missionary to Sweden, I have given some unusual attention to conditions of the Church there. My wife (bless these missionary moms) has been devouring the blogs and other Internet content that pertain to the Stockholm mission. So I'm in a position to do some comparing. I'm happy to say that the Church in Sweden, never very large since the large-scale immigration of Swedish Latter-day Saints to Utah in the 1800s, seems a good deal stronger today than when I was there. It is numerically larger, for one thing, 9,000-10,000 members as opposed to 6,000 when I was there. Since I came home, a temple has been constructed in Stockholm and two others in nearby Copenhagen, Denmark and Helsinki, Finland. A member of the Seventy, Elder Per Malm, is from Sweden. Here's an article that gives some perspective on the strength of the Church there.I think the similarities between the Swedish Rescue and the Boise Rescue end with the dubbed name and Bro. Turley's participation. While the Swedish Rescue seemed like more of an attempt to interact and answer questions this Boise presentation was just that...a presentation. There was no give and take. There was no review of difficult historical issues. It was a presentation that seemed to be aimed more at active members with no concept of church history problems as a way of saying "stay in the boat" than it was towards struggling members saying "Get back in the boat." There really wasn't any outreach that I heard on the audio seeking reconciliation or attempting to answer sincere questions by troubled members. It was more accusatory towards doubters as disobedient and false prophets. "Stay in the boat" was the message to the members without struggles.To the members with struggles there was no message at all, other than, "You are apostate if you don't follow us." 1
Buckeye Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 If anyone's paying attention (I imagine Duncan is) there is another 'swedish rescue' going on at this very moment in the Women's World Cup. In order to survive in the tournament, Sweden needs Mexico to beat France and/or S. Korea to beat Spain. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_FIFA_Women's_World_Cup) 2
Buckeye Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Continued use of the term "Swedish Rescue" conjures an image of wholesale hemorrhaging and apostasy of the Church in that land. ... I took it to mean an extension of this idea, just applied to Sweden.
Duncan Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 If anyone's paying attention (I imagine Duncan is) there is another 'swedish rescue' going on at this very moment in the Women's World Cup. In order to survive in the tournament, Sweden needs Mexico to beat France and/or S. Korea to beat Spain. (See <a data-ipb="nomediaparse" data-cke-saved-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_FIFA_Women" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_FIFA_Women" s_world_cup"="">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_FIFA_Women's_World_Cup) well, I got swimming every week and I saw some FIFA women's soccer players at the pool and let's just say I am taking cold showers for the rest of my freaking life. They are a TON of visitors here and it's all very fun to have them around!!!! 3
SeekingUnderstanding Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Continued use of the term "Swedish Rescue" conjures an image of wholesale hemorrhaging and apostasy of the Church in that land. As a returned Sweden missionary (1974-76) and the father of a soon-to-depart missionary to Sweden, I have given some unusual attention to conditions of the Church there. My wife (bless these missionary moms) has been devouring the blogs and other Internet content that pertain to the Stockholm mission. So I'm in a position to do some comparing. I'm happy to say that the Church in Sweden, never very large since the large-scale immigration of Swedish Latter-day Saints to Utah in the 1800s, seems a good deal stronger today than when I was there. It is numerically larger, for one thing, 9,000-10,000 members as opposed to 6,000 when I was there. Since I came home, a temple has been constructed in Stockholm and two others in nearby Copenhagen, Denmark and Helsinki, Finland. A member of the Seventy, Elder Per Malm, is from Sweden. Here's an article that gives some perspective on the strength of the Church there.Not to contradict the nice article, but from 2000 - 2010, Sweden went from 51 congregations to 40 (source). It appears in the 5 years since that the number of congregations has stayed at 40 (source).
Scott Lloyd Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Be that as it may, "wholesale hemorrhaging and apostasy" is a subjective description. Everyone will understand that differently. Well, since it was I who used that phrasing, I will clarify and say that what I meant was the appearance of a crisis situation in which the Church is languishing and its very survival in Sweden is in jeopardy. Viewing things in perspective, I don't get that impression. It appears that the term "Swedish Rescue" came from letters authored by Elder Jensen (Jan 2012) and Elder Ingvar Olsson (Mar 2012). I look at it this way... these good men (Elder Jensen, Elder Turley, and Elder Oaks) are very busy men. Elder Oaks probably qualifies as extremely busy. If they decide that a special meeting is needed outside their normal process of communicating with members through stake and general conferences, then there must be a good reason. Well, every soul is precious. But as I recall, Elder Jensen (and perhaps Rick Turley as well) were traveling anyway and included this meeting on his travel agenda. I'm not sure he scheduled a special trip just for this. I wonder how unusual this sort of thing (calling a special meeting to deal with doubts among members) really is. Is it something that happens more often than we think and we only hear about it when somebody happens to make a surreptitious recording and post it on a blog?
Scott Lloyd Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 I took it to mean an extension of this idea, just applied to Sweden.Perhaps. I'm just saying how the term comes across to me and thought it might have a similar impact on others as well.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Not to contradict the nice article, but from 2000 - 2010, Sweden went from 51 congregations to 40 (source).There have been ups and downs over time. The Stockholm mission was divided just before I came home, and within a few years after that, the two missions were consolidated back into one. But over the long term (the 40 years or so since I was there) I see a general trend toward greater strength from the indicators I've mentioned. I was serving in the mission office when the country's first stake, Stockholm Sweden Stake, was created. Today, there are four, including two in Stockholm and one each in Goteborg and Malmo. It appears in the 5 years since that the number of congregations has stayed at 40 (source). Didn't the "Swedish Rescue" occur within that time period? What are we to conclude? Either the effort staunched the hemorrhaging or it was never that serious in the first place? Or something else?
why me Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) Not to contradict the nice article, but from 2000 - 2010, Sweden went from 51 congregations to 40 (source). It appears in the 5 years since that the number of congregations has stayed at 40 (source).Sweden, like other countries in northern europe are seeing a decline in population in the rural areas. Many young people are heading to the cities, leaving their countyside behind. This could be one reason why there is a decline in congregations as wards merge or .branches close to merge with bigger wards. People need to go where the jobs are. So, there is a consolidation of wards and branches. As one of your links states there are now 9,500 thousand members. So, it looks like a merging of branches or a closure of branches due to migration. Edited June 17, 2015 by why me 1
rockpond Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Well, since it was I who used that phrasing, I will clarify and say that what I meant was the appearance of a crisis situation in which the Church is languishing and its very survival in Sweden is in jeopardy. Viewing things in perspective, I don't get that impression. Well, every soul is precious. But as I recall, Elder Jensen (and perhaps Rick Turley as well) were traveling anyway and included this meeting on his travel agenda. I'm not sure he scheduled a special trip just for this. I wonder how unusual this sort of thing (calling a special meeting to deal with doubts among members) really is. Is it something that happens more often than we think and we only hear about it when somebody happens to make a surreptitious recording and post it on a blog? Don't you have some good connections that would allow you to ask Elder Jensen why he chose to call it the "Swedish Rescue"? Given the attention that these types of meetings get on social media, I doubt that any are flying under the radar (recorded or not).
SeekingUnderstanding Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 There have been ups and downs over time. The Stockholm mission was divided just before I came home, and within a few years after that, the two missions were consolidated back into one. But over the long term (the 40 years or so since I was there) I see a general trend toward greater strength from the indicators I've mentioned. I was serving in the mission office when the country's first stake, Stockholm Sweden Stake, was created. Today, there are four, including two in Stockholm and one each in Goteborg and Malmo. Didn't the "Swedish Rescue" occur within that time period? What are we to conclude? Either the effort staunched the hemorrhaging or it was never that serious in the first place? Or something else?Oh I agree. I don't see the bottom falling out anywhere. I do disagree that the church is currently growing in Sweden. After significant growth in the 70's and 80's, over the last decade and a half or so, church membership as a percent of the population is about steady at 0.1%. http://www.cumorah.com/index.php?target=countries&cnt_res=2&wid=209&cmdfind=Search
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 This looks like a vestige of the now widely discredited moral panic of the 1980s and 1990s. This panic has been linked to dissociative identity disorder (multiple personality disorder) and false memory syndrome. It strikes me as a highly pernicious phenomenon in that it can ruin -- or at least put a cloud on -- the reputations of innocent people, often after they have died and are thus not around to defend themselves. I've often wondered if this or something like it is at the root of Martha Nibley Beck's bizarre allegations against her father.Interesting you should say that, because I tracked down the post in question and the poster, and she openly admits to suffering from MPD on her profile wall. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) Don't you have some good connections that would allow you to ask Elder Jensen why he chose to call it the "Swedish Rescue"? Did he originate the name, or did he only use it after it had already become common? But it's not the sort of thing I'd be inclined to track down Elder Jensen and ask him about. And I'm not really objecting to the term so much as cautioning against drawing false conclusions from it. Maybe I'm the only one getting that impression. I don't know. I haven't taken any surveys. Given the attention that these types of meetings get on social media, I doubt that any are flying under the radar (recorded or not). Maybe, maybe not. If they had occurred and not gotten such attention, neither you nor I would be apt to know about them. But according to Happy Jack Wagon, there's scarcely any similarity between the Swedish rescue and the Boise rescue anyway. It seems somebody took a popular bit of jargon and recycled it. Edited June 17, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Interesting you should say that, because I tracked down the post in question and the poster, and she openly admits to suffering from MPD on her profile wall.Well, there you go. 1
drums12 Posted June 17, 2015 Author Posted June 17, 2015 Responding to the OP, the term "Boise Rescue" seems to be a creation of the bloggernacle, not church leaders. It's based on the phrase "Swedish Rescue" which is the name given to a 2012 meeting where Elders Marlin K. Jensen and Richard Turley were sent to dialogue with saints about historical issues and concerns. The Boise event was a multi-stake meeting held near Boise in which Elders Oaks and Turley did much of the same. The prime difference seems to be that the Boise event was more directed to Snufferism, which apparently has taken some hold there. You can find more discussion, and a recording of the entire event, at Mormon Stories: http://mormonstories.org/boise-rescue-oaks-turley/I live in the Boise area. I didn't hear anything about the meeting until after the recording was put online. I'm not aware of any "Snufferism" taking hold in the area, although I'm sure there are some who, like Waterman, Snuffer, etc. believe the Church is in apostasy. Of course I wouldn't expect it to be making news anyway if members' (or former members) have been increasingly expressing such concerns to their bishops/stake presidents.
rockpond Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 I live in the Boise area. I didn't hear anything about the meeting until after the recording was put online. I'm not aware of any "Snufferism" taking hold in the area, although I'm sure there are some who, like Waterman, Snuffer, etc. believe the Church is in apostasy. Of course I wouldn't expect it to be making news anyway if members' (or former members) have been increasingly expressing such concerns to their bishops/stake presidents. Just curious... as a local were you aware of Adrian Larsen, his blog, connection to Snuffer, and excommunication?
drums12 Posted June 17, 2015 Author Posted June 17, 2015 Just curious... as a local were you aware of Adrian Larsen, his blog, connection to Snuffer, and excommunication? I had heard of Larsen, but only through the bloggernacle, not any local word of mouth. Admittedly I live about 45 mins outside Boise so perhaps I'd have heard more if I were closer.
rockpond Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 But according to Happy Jack Wagon, there's scarcely any similarity between the Swedish rescue and the Boise rescue anyway. It seems somebody took a popular bit of jargon and recycled it. Agreed... if we make the supposition that the Swedish Rescue was in response to concerns/questions like those Hans Mattson was voicing than the content was very different. I haven't heard the Swedish Rescue recording. And I agree that someone (probably the reddit poster who made the recording) just recycled the "rescue" nomenclature.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 The major difference between the Swedish and Boise "Rescue"... In Sweden, they were combating disbelief in the historical narrative and truthfulness of the Restoration- in Boise it is the opposite, they are up against people who fully believe in the Restoration, but believe the present church has stumbled.Two different set of circumstances. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 The major difference between the Swedish and Boise "Rescue"... In Sweden, they were combating disbelief in the historical narrative and truthfulness of the Restoration- in Boise it is the opposite, they are up against people who fully believe in the Restoration, but believe the present church has stumbled.Two different set of circumstances.So the Boise bunch is arguably the more creative of the two, then.
ERayR Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 I had heard of Larsen, but only through the bloggernacle, not any local word of mouth. Admittedly I live about 45 mins outside Boise so perhaps I'd have heard more if I were closer. Which way from Boise. I live about 100 miles SE of Boise.
drums12 Posted June 18, 2015 Author Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) Which way from Boise. I live about 100 miles SE of Boise.Fruitland. 55 miles NW of Boise, right on the Oregon border. My wife is from Paul though. Are you down in Wendell? Edited June 18, 2015 by drums12
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