Duncan Posted June 19, 2015 Posted June 19, 2015 Because it sounded to me like there were just a few pages that had been translated and those are the ones they saw. As I said to Calmoriah, if someone wanted to make some fake plates it would not be hard to produce a few pages and write on them something strange. OK, I'm a skeptic, but that has saved me from many false claims of other religious faiths and of get rich quick schemes. The plates were never that I know of plainly displayed in their entirety for anyone to see. well, not just anyone they weren't a sideshow attraction. They were seen and handled by the 8 witnesses and some others, including a lady! Correct me if I am wrong but one of the Whitmer's wives
Sanpitch Posted June 19, 2015 Posted June 19, 2015 well, not just anyone they weren't a sideshow attraction. They were seen and handled by the 8 witnesses and some others, including a lady! Correct me if I am wrong but one of the Whitmer's wives I'd have to review the history, it's been a long time. Didn't Emma say that she saw the plates but they were covered with a cloth? Did she ever see them plainly? What's the mystery?
Duncan Posted June 19, 2015 Posted June 19, 2015 I'd have to review the history, it's been a long time. Didn't Emma say that she saw the plates but they were covered with a cloth? Did she ever see them plainly? What's the mystery? Sounds allright but I am not sure actually, Nevo would know! 1
Sanpitch Posted June 19, 2015 Posted June 19, 2015 Sounds allright but I am not sure actually, Nevo would know! I am anti myths and unproven beliefs. In my younger days, dedicated mom, believed that when someone was appointed to be an apostle they were given the chance to see Jesus Christ face to face. That's a myth. We were also going to walk back to Jackson County Missouri in the final days. That's a myth. There was going to be someone on a white horse who steps in to same the nation. (that's a vague memory and maybe not accurate) But's that's a myth. And on and on.
Duncan Posted June 19, 2015 Posted June 19, 2015 I am anti myths and unproven beliefs. In my younger days, dedicated mom, believed that when someone was appointed to be an apostle they were given the chance to see Jesus Christ face to face. That's a myth. We were also going to walk back to Jackson County Missouri in the final days. That's a myth. There was going to be someone on a white horse who steps in to same the nation. (that's a vague memory and maybe not accurate) But's that's a myth. And on and on. oh I know, that why we need to "search knowledge" as per 2 Nephi 32:7
Calm Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 Mary Whitmer, David's mother: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865583267/Mary-Whitmer-12th-witness-to-the-Book-of-Mormon.html?pg=all Emma talked about moving the plates when she was cleaning around them as well as 'rustling' the plates. They were covered with a linen cloth at the time. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/07/i-have-a-question?lang=eng The plates often lay on the table without any attempt at concealment, wrapped in a small linen tablecloth, which I had given him [Joseph Smith, Jr.] to fold them in. I once felt of the plates, as they thus lay on the table, tracing their outline and shape. They seemed to be pliable like thick paper, and would rustle with a metallic sound when the edges were moved by the thumb, as one does sometimes thumb the edges of a book. … I did not attempt to handle the plates, other than I have told you, nor uncover them to look at them. I was satisfied that it was the work of God, and therefore did not feel it to be necessary to do so. … I moved them from place to place on the table, as it was necessary in doing my work.” (The Saints’ Herald, 1 Oct. 1879, p. 290; spelling modernized.)
Sanpitch Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 Mary Whitmer, David's mother: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865583267/Mary-Whitmer-12th-witness-to-the-Book-of-Mormon.html?pg=all Emma talked about moving the plates when she was cleaning around them as well as 'rustling' the plates. They were covered with a linen cloth at the time. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/07/i-have-a-question?lang=eng Thank you Calmoriah, that is what I remembered as to Emma, covered plates. Actual eye witness to the plates is not all that clear. There are the plates shown by the spirit but people see all kinds of things by the spirit, LDS and other faiths. We can't interview them and get the details, that's all past history. I think many things that are supposedly from the spirit are just plain common dreams.
Calm Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 So for the eight witnesses who said they all handled them, do you think they were having a shared dream somehow? Or do you accept them as having actually touched the plates without being covered, since they said they turned the pages and looked at the writing?
Sanpitch Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 So for the eight witnesses who said they all handled them, do you think they were having a shared dream somehow? Or do you accept them as having actually touched the plates without being covered, since they said they turned the pages and looked at the writing? It sounds convincing but then why did so many of them later leave the church and/or join other faiths. They must have not been that firm in their testimony.
Duncan Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 (edited) It sounds convincing but then why did so many of them later leave the church and/or join other faiths. They must have not been that firm in their testimony. Correct me if I am wrong but 6/8 of the Witnesses never left the Church and of the two that did, Hiram Page and John Whitmer were still true to their testimony at least to the Gold Plates but I am not sure about Page. Why don't people believe or stay true is a mystery, even going back to the premortal life Edited June 20, 2015 by Duncan
Paddy Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 Elder Cook came to our stake about 2-3 weeks ago. His was visiting Australia and decided to call a stake conference for the Mortdale stake. At the end of his talk he all but said that he had a visitation of Christ. Can't remember the words he spoke they definitely left that impression. Although he did not say he had seen him, in those words, he left us with the abosolute impression that he knew Him intimately. I am not actucually sure that an apostolic witness requires a specific visitation. The nature at spirituality is quite subjective. How God speaks to one person he may not speak the same to another. Not everyone, including apostles, needs a visitation to know Christ. God may use other means that's speak more profoundly to that person. 2
DJBrown Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 Its exactly what he is saying. Why else would he include the last line? Why not just stop before the "we have seen him"? It seems to me you actually believe he is being deceitful so he can have it both ways, as has been said in this thread. Joseph and Sydney stated that they knew the Lord lived. And they stated the reason they knew that- "for we saw Him." Elder Packer says "their words are my words." That is pretty clear in my mind. Christ Himself held back a great deal. He even told His apostles that He did this. We shouldn't be surprised when His apostles do the same thing. Maybe being very plain in saying "I have seen Christ" would result in a sensational response that included elements that were not productive. Given human nature, I think such a response is very likely.
Duncan Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 I was reading a small article written by Davis Bitton from 1993 and this is third hand info but his neighbour remembers Sister Emmeline Wells telling her and her friend that just before the Salt lake Temple Dedication she had a vision of Christ, thought was pretty spot on 1
rodheadlee Posted June 21, 2015 Posted June 21, 2015 Did anyone quote John? 14: 21 He that hath my commandments, and akeepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be bloved of my Father, and I will love him, and will cmanifest myself to him. Anyone can get a visit from Christ, not just Apostles.
Tacenda Posted June 22, 2015 Posted June 22, 2015 And maybe more than feeling bad. Maybe they are concerned that we would treat apostles differently based on who had seen Jesus and who hadn't. I can easily see that happening and see some people deciding that the "had seen Him" group had more authority than the "had not" group.This sounds terribly wobbly to me.
stemelbow Posted June 22, 2015 Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) This is all very curious to me. So, let's take that Elder Packer said without anyone doubting that he had seen Christ. For years the story has been the Apostles have been visited but they can't say they have lest they put their pearls before swine, get mocked and derided, and the sacred event becomes profane. So did Elder Packer break covenants in telling people he did see Christ? Has he been mocked and derided for saying it? Has his sacred experience become something other than sacred? if no in any and all of them, then it seems a good thing that others step up and tell everyone that they have seen Christ, no? Or is it reasonable that some of us, including me, take the position that Elder Packer really wasn't trying to say he had seen Christ, so much as explain that he too is a witness of Christ? Edited June 22, 2015 by stemelbow
TheSkepticChristian Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) I don't see this as Oaks saying that none of them have seen Christ. Only that one does not have to have seen Christ to be an apostle. I agree, but that statement opens the possibility that none of them have seen Christ. Edited June 27, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian
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