Mystery Meat Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Then why was he purposely vague? Joseph and Rigdon were clear. President Packer was vague. Why? I don't think he was.
sethpayne Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 I don't think there is an ambiguity that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; that he is our Savior; following him is our only path to return to our Father. Is there something more important than that? So, in your mind, if the Apostles don't witness the resurrected Christ, what is the difference between their spiritual witness and yours or mine? Don't get me wrong. I don't see any "problem" with the modern Apostles NOT seeing Jesus. But if if their testimony is based on the same witness of the spirit that mine is, I think they should make that very clear so that members understand these men don't get any special privileges not available to ALL truth seekers. At the same time, I also understand why some members want to believe the current Twelve have seen the resurrected Lord like the Apostles of old and even some LDS leaders. I don't think it is fair to be so vague as to let these members continue on in their misconception. If, in fact, it is a misconception. Clarity here is important.
sethpayne Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) I don't think he was. I think this would have been a much more clear and Joseph-esque statement: "Just like the Prophet Joseph and Sidney Rigdon -- who saw the risen Lord and testified that He lives -- I too have seen the risen Lord and testify that he lives." No ambiguity. No plausible deniability. A clear statement. Just like we got from Joseph. Edited June 17, 2015 by sethpayne
Duncan Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 "God hath not revealed any thing to Joseph, but what he will make known unto the Twelve & even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to--bear them. for the day must come when no man need say to his neighbor know ye the Lord for all shall know him (who Remain) from the least to the greatest, How is this to be done? It is to be done by this sealing power & the other comforter spoken of which will be manifest by Revelation" Joseph Smith, 1839 I think that's the point, God revealing the same things to everyone as fast as we want it 1
HappyJackWagon Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) what do you think about Elder Haight telling of his experience with Christ in GC? or Pres. Hugh B. Brown's experience at the Washington DC Temple dedication or this from Pres. Benson “Nothing will surprise us more than when we get to heaven and see the Father and realize how well we know Him and how familiar His face is to us.” I don't think he's lying to us! He's from Idaho!Can you give quotes or a reference for Haight and Brown? Regardless, if they came out and stated directly that they've seen Christ I would respect their candor. Benson's quote doesn't say anything. Of course we'll recognize God and Christ in the next life and the veil no longer covers our eyes. That quote isn't any kind of declaration that he saw God. Storm Ryder-I don't think there is an ambiguity that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; that he is our Savior; following him is our only path to return to our Father. Is there something more important than that? Depends who you ask? According to Oaks recent statements in Boise it would appear following the Brethren is the most important thing as if they are mirror images of Christ. We simply need honesty. That's all. There's no need for cagy, ambiguous statements. Tell it like it is and then let people decide what they believe based on truth. "Gospel Essentials Manual, Chapter 31:There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest." Edited June 17, 2015 by HappyJackWagon 1
Duncan Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Can you give quotes or a reference for Haight and Brown? Regardless, if they came out and stated directly that they've seen Christ I would respect their candor. Benson's quote doesn't say anything. Of course we'll recognize God and Christ in the next life and the veil no longer covers our eyes. That quote isn't any kind of declaration that he saw God. Depends who you ask? According to Oaks recent statements in Boise it would appear following the Brethren is the most important thing as if they are mirror images of Christ. We simply need honesty. That's all. There's no need for cagy, ambiguous statements. Tell it like it is and then let people decide what they believe based on truth. Here is the reference to Elder Haight's experiencehttps://www.lds.org/general-conference/1989/10/the-sacrament-and-the-sacrifice?lang=eng and to Pres. Brown's ‘He [Elder Brown] said it was not a vision, but the Lord appeared to him, very informal, the same as I was sitting talking to him. The Lord said, ‘You have had some difficult times in your life.’ Uncle Hugh responded, ‘Yes, and your life was more difficult than any of us have had.’ In the conversation Uncle Hugh asked when he would be finished here, and the Lord said, ‘I don’t know and I wouldn’t tell you if I did.’ Then He said, ‘Remain faithful to the end, and everything will be all right, N. Eldon Tanner: His Life and Service (Salt Lake: Deseret Book, 1982), 255-256 Pres. George Q. Cannon `I know that God lives. I know that Jesus lives; for I have seen him.'" Oct. 1896 GC 2
Damien the Leper Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Plus he got a nice financial windfall out of the thing and then faithfully killed himself.What is it about Iscariot that convinces people to become his apologist when everything we know of him says the complete opposite.Scripture is biased. But so am I. Rather than demonize a man who died 2 different ways, I'll simply give him the benefit of the doubt and trust that Christ knew what he was doing. Admittedly, all this discussion takes a great deal of faith...a faith I don't have and probably never will have. If the writers of scripture are correct in their handed down accounts so be it. If the scriptures are incorrect and Judas was following orders then, likewise, so be it. If the entire narrative is a hoax then shame on me for believing to the slightest degree.
stemelbow Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 I don't think he was. In your view are you saying Packer definitely said he has seen Christ?
Mystery Meat Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 In your view are you saying Packer definitely said he has seen Christ? I think his statement speaks for itself.
stemelbow Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 I think his statement speaks for itself. I heard you say that. I'm just wondering what you think the statement that speaks for itself is saying. Because to me, it's as vague and clouded as most statements from LDS authorities when ti comes to the question of whether they have seen Christ. 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Here is the reference to Elder Haight's experiencehttps://www.lds.org/general-conference/1989/10/the-sacrament-and-the-sacrifice?lang=eng and to Pres. Brown's ‘He [Elder Brown] said it was not a vision, but the Lord appeared to him, very informal, the same as I was sitting talking to him. The Lord said, ‘You have had some difficult times in your life.’ Uncle Hugh responded, ‘Yes, and your life was more difficult than any of us have had.’ In the conversation Uncle Hugh asked when he would be finished here, and the Lord said, ‘I don’t know and I wouldn’t tell you if I did.’ Then He said, ‘Remain faithful to the end, and everything will be all right, N. Eldon Tanner: His Life and Service (Salt Lake: Deseret Book, 1982), 255-256 Pres. George Q. Cannon `I know that God lives. I know that Jesus lives; for I have seen him.'" Oct. 1896 GCThanks for sharing those. These were unambiguous. 1
Mystery Meat Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 I heard you say that. I'm just wondering what you think the statement that speaks for itself is saying. Because to me, it's as vague and clouded as most statements from LDS authorities when ti comes to the question of whether they have seen Christ. "Their words are my words."
Duncan Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) Thanks for sharing those. These were unambiguous. no charge! there are more famous accounts like Pres. Lorenzo Snow, Melvin J. Ballard and Orson F. Whitney and George F. Richards Edited June 17, 2015 by Duncan
sethpayne Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 I think his statement speaks for itself. The fact that you can't, or won't, give a simple yes or no answer perfectly illustrates the problem with being vague.
Mystery Meat Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 The fact that you can't, or won't, give a simple yes or no answer perfectly illustrates the problem with being vague. I thought I did.
stemelbow Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 "Their words are my words." Here's part from Elder Packer: We do not talk of those sacred interviews that qualify the servants of the Lord to bear a special witness of Him, for we have been commanded not to do so. But we are free, indeed, we are obliged, to bear that special witness. But that witness, the testimony of this work, is not reserved to those few of us who lead the Church. In proper order that witness comes to men and women and children all over the world. he's suggesting that being a special witness is something all in the Church should be. He's not addressing whether he's seen Christ or not. You seem to see something clear on the topic in his words. I can't understand why you feel that way. You won't explain yourself. I'm not sure what "their words are my words" is suggestive of when it comes to whether or not living prophets have seen Christ.
stemelbow Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 no charge! there are more famous accounts like Pres. Lorenzo Snow, Melvin J. Ballard and Orson F. Whitney and George F. Richards That's cool. I wonder why living apostles won't say they have seen Him, if they have. Some say to do so will bring ridicule and is putting pearls before swine. Were not these good brethren aware of such a problem? Were they ridiculed? Is there any reason to see their testimonies as putting pearls before swine?
Mystery Meat Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) Here's part from Elder Packer:he's suggesting that being a special witness is something all in the Church should be. He's not addressing whether he's seen Christ or not. You seem to see something clear on the topic in his words. I can't understand why you feel that way. You won't explain yourself. I'm not sure what "their words are my words" is suggestive of when it comes to whether or not living prophets have seen Christ. The context for his "Their words are my words" comment has previously been provided. But here you go: "After all the years that I have lived and taught and served, after the millions of miles I have traveled around the world, with all that I have experienced, there is one great truth that I would share. That is my witness of the Savior Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon recorded the following after a sacred experience: “And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!“For we saw him” (D&C 76:22–23). Their words are my words. I believe and I am sure that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that He lives." Edited June 17, 2015 by Mystery Meat
sethpayne Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 The context for his "Their words are my words" comment has previously been provided. But here you go: See how much effort you have had to put in to make your point. All along, Elder Packer could have said "I have seen the risen Lord and testify that He lives!" Could have saved you a whole bunch of work.
Mystery Meat Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) See how much effort you have had to put in to make your point. All along, Elder Packer could have said "I have seen the risen Lord and testify that He lives!" Could have saved you a whole bunch of work. Not really. Some just don't have ears to hear is all OR are willing to believe that current members (at least some anyway) like President Packer are purposefully being vague and/or deceitful so they can have it both ways. Might as well accuse him of lying. Edited June 17, 2015 by Mystery Meat 1
Duncan Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 That's cool. I wonder why living apostles won't say they have seen Him, if they have. Some say to do so will bring ridicule and is putting pearls before swine. Were not these good brethren aware of such a problem? Were they ridiculed? Is there any reason to see their testimonies as putting pearls before swine? don't know! maybe only they can answer that? 2
sethpayne Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) Not really. Some just don't have ears to hear is all OR are willing to believe that current members (at least some anyway) like President Packer are purposefully being vague and/or deceitful so they can have it both ways. Might as well accuse him of lying. Um...... who's accusing Elder Packer of lying? Seems a bit extreme. You keep saying that if we only have "ears to hear" then the statement is absolutely crystal clear. Well, anyone can read that statement and conclude -- as you have -- that Elder Packer has seen Christ. Or, like stembelow -- it isn't as obvious. So it seems to be more about how one chooses to interpret the vague statement and less to do with spiritual "ears to hear." So please forgive us of less spiritual strength for not knowing exactly how to parse Elder Packer's vague statement. Joseph was bold and clear. Brigham was bold and clear (although I don't know if he claimed seeing Jesus). JFS was bold and clear. No ambiguity. These prophets had spiritual manifestations and proudly shared them as part of their calling. Edited June 17, 2015 by sethpayne 1
Mystery Meat Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Um...... who's accusing Elder Packer of lying? Seems a bit extreme. You keep saying that if we only have "ears to hear" then the statement is absolutely crystal clear. Well, anyone can read that statement and conclude -- as you have -- that Elder Packer has seen Christ. Or, like stembelow -- it isn't as obvious. So it seems to be more about how one chooses to interpret the vague statement and less to do with spiritual "ears to hear." So please forgive us of less spiritual strength for not knowing exactly how to parse Elder Packer's vague statement. Joseph was bold and clear. Brigham was bold and clear (although I don't know if he claimed seeing Jesus). JFS was bold and clear. No ambiguity. These prophets had spiritual manifestations and proudly shared them as part of their calling. I wasn't going to respond, but this was a mischaracterization of what I said. I said that people who accuse Elder Packer (and those like him) of being vague so some can think he has seen the Savior while still maintaining his deniability are basically accusing him of being deceitful and dishonest. Thus, they might as well stop skirting the issue, and just say they think he is a liar. There is little difference (frankly no difference) between being deceitful (trying to have it both ways) and lying. They are one and the same. Elder Packer was crystal clear in what he said. No ambiguity. No stutter. I remember when he said understanding instantly what he was communicating. I am not going to stand up and throw stones at them for not providing more details or any details at all. Yes, we have many accounts of Prophets who have done exactly that in the past. We also have detailed accounts of prophets who commanded not to share. I do not doubt that Joseph Smith held a lot back. He told Brigham Young as much. So please understand why I am so reluctant to get on board with folks who want to accuse Apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ of purposely and carefully choosing their words so that some might think one thing, while still having deniability (ie, being deceitful, dishonest, or/and lying). I want no part of that. I have placed my lot with the Lord and those He has chosen today. I know they are not perfect. I know they have each made mistakes. Intentionally leading people into believing something that is not true to bolster their claim to a divine call is not one of them. Feel free to believe that if you so wish OR throw stones at them for not being more forthcoming when you do not know what they may have been commanded. 2
stemelbow Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Mystery Meat: The context for his "Their words are my words" comment has previously been provided. But here you go: It could very well be that he was referring to their testimony of Christ living. He doesn't follow up by saying he too has seen the Lord. Indeed, in the talk he explains how any old average joe, if you will, can testify and be such a special witness of Christ. I get why you think he's clearly saying he's seen Christ, but in context I don't think it's quite saying what you want it to say. 1
Mystery Meat Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Mystery Meat:It could very well be that he was referring to their testimony of Christ living. He doesn't follow up by saying he too has seen the Lord. Indeed, in the talk he explains how any old average joe, if you will, can testify and be such a special witness of Christ.I get why you think he's clearly saying he's seen Christ, but in context I don't think it's quite saying what you want it to say. Its exactly what he is saying. Why else would he include the last line? Why not just stop before the "we have seen him"? It seems to me you actually believe he is being deceitful so he can have it both ways, as has been said in this thread. 1
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