D&c 132 References For Living Polyandry

[Tacenda]

dbl post

Edited April 18, 2015 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

 

First, you will agree that in the Bible, nobody is every condemned for living polygamy. Great men of God practiced it like Abraham and Jacob and lesser known ones like Abijah. Anyone who says that polygamy is always wrong can only say that if they completely ignore the scriptures.

Second, polygamy is only seen as wrong because people today have been influenced by western society that proclaims it to be generally wrong. Of course this same western society generally thinks premarital sex is ok, abortion is fine, and views gay relationships as more acceptable now. Western morality is not necessarily morality that closest to God. Often western morality gets worse as time goes on.

Third, want a place where polygamy would be commanded or required? Deut 25:5-10

5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband’s brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband’s brother unto her.From that scripture where do you get the idea that the guy that marries his brother's wife, is married already. No one has ever answered this yet.

6 And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel.

7 And if the man like not to take his brother’s wife, then let his brother’s wife go up to the gate unto the elders, and say, My husband’s brother refuseth to raise up unto his brother a name in Israel, he will not perform the duty of my husband’s brother.

8 Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak unto him: and if he stand to it, and say, I like not to take her;

9 Then shall his brother’s wife come unto him in the presence of the elders, and loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face, and shall answer and say, So shall it be done unto that man that will not build up his brother’s house.

10 And his name shall be called in Israel, The house of him that hath his shoe loosed.

Now put this into application. Steve and Jack are brothers. Both Steve and Jack are married. Steve does not have any kids. Steve gets killed. So what is Jack supposed to do. Jack who his married is supposed to take Steve wife. Jack now has two wives. Deut 25 5-10 does not care if the living brother is married or not. It is not relevant. The living brother is to take the wife of the dead brother.

There you have a example of polygamy being required or commanded.

 

How do you know that the man's brother was already married when he marries the deceased brother's wife.  No one has been able to answer this question.  Therefore zero evidence that God ever commanded polygamy, he has condemned it though.   

[JLHPROF]

How do you know that the man's brother was already married when he marries the deceased brother's wife.  No one has been able to answer this question.  Therefore zero evidence that God ever commanded polygamy, he has condemned it though.   

D&C 132 is the evidence and the command.  Unless you don't believe a canonized section of our scriptures is from God.  In which case, I'm not a huge fan of section 31, and Micah chapter 4 can go, and don't even get me started on the whole book of Omni...when are they going to discard that already. 

[Calm]

How do you know that the man's brother was already married when he marries the deceased brother's wife.  No one has been able to answer this question.  Therefore zero evidence that God ever commanded polygamy, he has condemned it though.   

So are you saying it has never happened that an Hebrew widow without children had only a married brother to marry after her husband's death?  That in all the centuries it never happened?

[Tacenda]

So are you saying it has never happened that an Hebrew widow without children had only a married brother to marry after her husband's death? That in all the centuries it never happened?

No, I just can't believe people use this scripture to prove that God commanded polygamy. It's not clear cut.

[Calm]

No, I just can't believe people use this scripture to prove that God commanded polygamy. It's not clear cut.

That is like saying when God commanded people to take care of widows and the poor, he isn't clear about referring to feeding them or not so as long as someone tries to make sure they have a roof over their heads they can ignore everything else.

[Tacenda]

That is like saying when God commanded people to take care of widows and the poor, he isn't clear about referring to feeding them or not so as long as someone tries to make sure they have a roof over their heads they can ignore everything else.

I don't see the connection between the two.

[ALarson]

How do you know that the man's brother was already married when he marries the deceased brother's wife.  No one has been able to answer this question.  Therefore zero evidence that God ever commanded polygamy, he has condemned it though.   

True.  Also, these were not the circumstances in at least the majority of Joseph Smith's polygamous marriages.  He did marry his brother, Don Carlos's widow.  That's the only one I can think of unless the term "brother" means all other men.  Even then, most of the women that Joseph Smith married were not widows.

 

And this definitely does not show that God commanded to live polygamy that involved taking 30+ wives, some that were young teenagers and some who already had living husbands.

Edited April 18, 2015 by ALarson

[Monster]

The answer to this whole issue is very plain and sits on the end of your nose. It is only when we try to justify it as from God that we  mold and weave the narrative to fit into some kind of acceptable practice.

[JLHPROF]

True.  Also, these were not the circumstances in at least the majority of Joseph Smith's polygamous marriages.  He did marry his brother, Don Carlos's widow.  That's the only one I can think of unless the term "brother" means all other men.  Even then, most of the women that Joseph Smith married were not widows.

 

And this definitely does not show that God commanded to live polygamy that involved taking 30+ wives, some that were young teenagers and some who already had living husbands.

 

The answer to this whole issue is very plain and sits on the end of your nose. It is only when we try to justify it as from God that we  mold and weave the narrative to fit into some kind of acceptable practice.

 

Since we can't convince you that polygamy came from God, I am just hoping I get a front row seat in the next life when God tells everyone that Joseph did exactly right.

[carbon dioxide]

D&C 132 is the evidence and the command.  Unless you don't believe a canonized section of our scriptures is from God.  In which case, I'm not a huge fan of section 31, and Micah chapter 4 can go, and don't even get me started on the whole book of Omni...when are they going to discard that already. 

I am for taking out all references to my favorite sins that are found in the scriptures.  Then I would never have to worry about repenting again.

Edited April 18, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[carbon dioxide]

How do you know that the man's brother was already married when he marries the deceased brother's wife.  No one has been able to answer this question.  Therefore zero evidence that God ever commanded polygamy, he has condemned it though.   

Deut 25:5-10 presents the criteria and it does not care whether the brother is married or not.  In some instances the brother may not be married but naturally other instance the brother would be.  The point is the instruction does not care whether the living brother is married or not.  If he is married, that is no excuse for him to not to take his brothers wife.

Edited April 18, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[canard78]

Commanded - not sure.

Actively encouraged -

2 Samuel 12

⁷ And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

⁸ And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

Is that really the best we have from the bible? That's not as clear a command to me as it seems to be for you.

[Monster]

Since we can't convince you that polygamy came from God, I am just hoping I get a front row seat in the next life when God tells everyone that Joseph did exactly right.

I want no part of that God. He is mean and vindictive. He can kick me out and I will hang with all the kind loving apostates I know.

[Tacenda]

I want no part of that God. He is mean and vindictive. He can kick me out and I will hang with all the kind loving apostates I know.

He doesn't sound like a moral God to me. Or is that not part of the criteria of a God? Maybe since the LDS believe we can become Gods, that might allow for the differences.

[ALarson]

Is that really the best we have from the bible? That's not as clear a command to me as it seems to be for you.

I agree.

 

Back to the question in the opening post, the answer seems to be that there are no scriptural (D&C or otherwise) references to any command from God to live polyandry.  If that's how I've interpreted the responses (?).

 

And no scriptures where God actually "commanded" someone to live polygamy.  It's maybe inferred that God would be ok with it under certain circumstances, but no commandment to live it that I've seen.

 

I do think there was a great question asked earlier in this thread.  Something about wondering why the principle of polygamy had to be restored in latter days if it was never a commandment from God in the history of the earth.

 

Any thoughts on this?  

Edited April 20, 2015 by ALarson

[JLHPROF]

And no scriptures where God actually "commanded" someone to live polygamy.

 

Just D&C 132.  That's good enough for me.  How many other doctrines and commandments are only located in one scripture or revelation?

[ALarson]

Just D&C 132.  That's good enough for me.  How many other doctrines and commandments are only located in one scripture or revelation?

If it started with Joseph Smith (living polygamy that was commanded by God), why not just proclaim that rather than stating it was a principal that needed to be "restored"?

 

And, why polyandry too?

Edited April 20, 2015 by ALarson

[JulieM]

ALarson, it was me who asked this question earlier. As far as I've seen, no one had answered it. It's kind of off the topic for this thread anyway. I would like to know people's thoughts on it though so I'll just start a new thread.

[JLHPROF]

If it started with Joseph Smith (living polygamy that was commanded by God), why not just proclaim that rather than stating it was a principal that needed to be "restored"?

 

And, why polyandry too?

 

These have been explained repeatedly.  The explanations are rejected by those who disapprove of polygamy.

I'm not sure what else you want us to say.  We certainly aren't going to be able to convince you against your will.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

Just D&C 132.  That's good enough for me.  How many other doctrines and commandments are only located in one scripture or revelation?

 

JLHPROF,

Unless I'm mistaken, on other occassions you have voiced the opinion that living prophets do not have the authority to change the revealed words of past prophets. If I'm remembering correctly, how do you justify D&C 132, the word of a later prophet discounting the words of previous prophets who condemned plural marriage? Does this 1 scripture outweigh all previous scriptures and prophets on this subject>

[Tacenda]

These have been explained repeatedly. The explanations are rejected by those who disapprove of polygamy.

I'm not sure what else you want us to say. We certainly aren't going to be able to convince you against your will.

This seems to be a non answer. Do you mind refreshing my memory of those explanations?

[ALarson]

These have been explained repeatedly.  

The need for Joseph Smith living polyandry has been explained repeatedly?   Was polyandry being restored by Joseph too?

 

I haven't seen that here, but I admit I have not read everything on this topic that others have posted.

[JLHPROF]

This seems to be a non answer. Do you mind refreshing my memory of those explanations?

 

1. Why was this never commanded previously to D&C 132? 

Just because we have no record doesn't mean it wasn't.  I know this isn't much to go on, but the fact that God never banned polygamy, condemned or stopped speaking to a polygamous prophet, provided guidelines for polygamy in the OT, provided a revelation withdrawing the practice but not condemning it, etc should tell us something.

 

The reason Joseph had to be directly commanded is because he was the first prophet living in a society (that we know of) where polygamy was against tradition and law.  How much commanding did Abraham need when it was already acceptable to them?  Or Israel?  Or even in the days of Christ?  There were no laws banning it as far as I'm aware nor was the practice frowned upon.  Only Joseph had need to be commanded.

 

2. How did they justify polyandry?

One of two ways

- either one marriage was for time and one was for eternity only.

OR

- only one was considered a marriage in the eyes of God as the secular marriages were seen as invalid

[JLHPROF]

 

 

JLHPROF,

Unless I'm mistaken, on other occassions you have voiced the opinion that living prophets do not have the authority to change the revealed words of past prophets. If I'm remembering correctly, how do you justify D&C 132, the word of a later prophet discounting the words of previous prophets who condemned plural marriage? Does this 1 scripture outweigh all previous scriptures and prophets on this subject>

 

Name one previous prophet to Joseph Smith that specifically condemned plural marriage.  (And don't say Jacob, that has been explained a hundred times as being withdrawn due to wickedness, not because plural marriage was wrong).  I have read zero prophetic bans on plural marriage as a practice.  Joseph was contradicting nobody.