D&c 132 References For Living Polyandry

[Buckeye]

No, I'm saying that every man that violates the conditions upon which his holding the priesthood is based loses it, regardless of membership status.  Priesthood is authority to act on behalf of God, not a Church given thing.

We only exercise priesthood with God's approval.  And just how many adulterers do we think God gives authority or power to.  Just how many ordinances performed by adulterers are valid to God?  Just how many revelations to lead his Church do we thing God gives to adulterers?

 

No, Joseph and the other leaders of the Church were not adulterers because God honored them and the ordinances they performed.  He gave them revelation after revelation.  Therefore polygamy is no sin.

 

God does recognize ordinances performed by adulterers. If a bishop is discovered to be guilty of adultery, the church does not go back and re-do all the ordiances he performed.

 

Moreover, I don't see anyone here besides you suggesting that Joseph and others who practiced polygamy were guilty of adultery. Granted, I haven't studied their lives enough to make a conclusive determination, but I certainly believe there is a space for mistakes, even for things as serious a sexual relations, such that adultery is not the only possible conclusion.

 

Here's an example. Suppose a man's wife has an identical twin sister. The sister chooses to trick the man by climbing into bed with him. He mistakenly believes she's his wife. They have sex. Is he guilty of adultery? No. Now granted, that's not identical to Joseph's and others' polygamy, but it is an example where someone can be technically guitly of a sin, but not lose authority/status/membership/etc. because of the mistake.

[JLHPROF]

Moreover, I don't see anyone here besides you suggesting that Joseph and others who practiced polygamy were guilty of adultery. Granted, I haven't studied their lives enough to make a conclusive determination, but I certainly believe there is a space for mistakes, even for things as serious a sexual relations, such that adultery is not the only possible conclusion.

 

Nonsense.  These men were married.  They chose to sleep with other women that they called wives.  If God approved of these plural marriages then great.  If God didn't there is no other word for it but adultery.

 

This has no resemblance to the twin sister scenario.  These men knew exactly what they were doing.  If it was wrong (a mistaken interpretation of God's will) then of course God will be forgiving.  If it was wrong (a willful sin/no belief it was from God) then the result is more serious.

 

Plenty of people here take the "it was a mistake" route.  Plenty of people here also take the "Joseph sinned, lied, deceived, coerced" route.  Doesn't matter to me.  Polygamy was none of these things.

[ALarson]

These men knew exactly what they were doing.  If it was wrong (a mistaken interpretation of God's will) then of course God will be forgiving.  If it was wrong (a willful sin/no belief it was from God) then the result is more serious.

Studying individual cases, I believe both of your scenarios took place.  I especially believe that the majority of the women who entered into polygamy did so because of the first scenario you give above and a great many of the men too.  But many (men & women) fall into the 2nd category as well.

Edited April 17, 2015 by ALarson

[JLHPROF]

Studying individual cases, I believe both of your scenarios took place.  I especially believe that the majority of the women who entered into polygamy did so because of the first scenario you give above and a great many of the men too.  But many (men & women) fall into the 2nd category as well.

 

Now that I can agree with, not the mistake part, but that there were those who entered polygamy with no testimony.

[ALarson]

Now that I can agree with, not the mistake part, but that there were those who entered polygamy with no testimony.

See, even we can agree on something

 

(And probably a lot more too.  I enjoy reading your posts on here.)

[bcuzbcuz]

Nonsense.  These men were married.  They chose to sleep with other women that they called wives.  If God approved of these plural marriages then great.  If God didn't there is no other word for it but adultery.

 

This has no resemblance to the twin sister scenario.  These men knew exactly what they were doing.  If it was wrong (a mistaken interpretation of God's will) then of course God will be forgiving.  If it was wrong (a willful sin/no belief it was from God) then the result is more serious.

 

Plenty of people here take the "it was a mistake" route.  Plenty of people here also take the "Joseph sinned, lied, deceived, coerced" route.  Doesn't matter to me.  Polygamy was none of these things.

I can well imagine that if my wife caught me in bed with another woman that, instead of falling on my knees and begging for forgiveness, that I would take an agressive stance and ask her how dare she question my motives. I'm especially good with words when being caught out in a debate or argument. I can quickly turn an argument from being a defensive, protective caution into an attack. (the old best defense is attack) Much like what Joseph used when caught by his wife. That doesn't mke it right.

Polygamy is wrong, no matter what argument is used.

[JLHPROF]

Polygamy is wrong, no matter what argument is used.

 

Only one argument is ever needed.  "What does God think of polygamy?"

 

And since I can't prove God's mind on polygamy to you in spite of all the revelations, doctrines, and ordinances from him on the subject, you are welcome to believe it always wrong.

 

Anything else is the work and mind of man.

[ALarson]

Only one argument is ever needed.  "What does God think of polygamy?"

In essence, you're asking:  

 

If lived as Joseph lived polygamy, what does God think of 37 year old men marrying 14 year old girls (or 15 or 16 or 17 year old girls)?  What does God think of married men marrying other good men's wives?

 

Do you think he likes these things being done in His name? 

Edited April 17, 2015 by ALarson

[carbon dioxide]

Polygamy is wrong, no matter what argument is used.

If Polygamy is wrong then it is not always bad to be wrong.  Even God is wrong because he has commanded polygamy in the past.

[JulieM]

If Polygamy is wrong then it is not always bad to be wrong.  Even God is wrong because he has commanded polygamy in the past.

Other than the Mormon claims about this, when is another time in history that God commanded someone to live polygamy?

I'd really like to know. Thanks!

[carbon dioxide]

In essence, you're asking:  

What does God think of 37 year old men marrying 14 year old girls (or 15 or 16 or 17 year old girls)?  What does God think of married men marrying other good men's wives?

 

Do you think he likes these things being done in His name? 

Does the scriptures speak of a minimum age of which someone can get married.  What is wrong with somebody marrying another person below 18.  What is so special about age 18?  What does God think about men marrying other mens wives?  I suppose God may be ok with it if it was done in a particular way.  If the women were ok with it, if the men were ok with it, why do you care?  I think when all facts are finally known and Joseph Smith explains what it was all about, a lot of people will be pleading Joseph for forgiveness for making hasty conclusions that turned out to be false.

[ALarson]

Does the scriptures speak of a minimum age of which someone can get married.  What is wrong with somebody marrying another person below 18.  What is so special about age 18?  What does God think about men marrying other mens wives?  I suppose God may be ok with it if it was done in a particular way.  If the women were ok with it, if the men were ok with it, why do you care?  I think when all facts are finally known and Joseph Smith explains what it was all about, a lot of people will be pleading Joseph for forgiveness for making hasty conclusions that turned out to be false.

I highly doubt that.  

 

As to your other questions, the answers should be obvious.  I don't need a scripture to know it's wrong for a man to marry another man's wife even if the wife is ok with it.  How is that not adultery if she doesn't divorce her husband before being with another man?

 

And, what if the 14 year old was your daughter and she came to you and said she was marrying a 37 year old man who already had dozens of other wives?  You'd be ok with that if she told you he was a Prophet and God wanted her to marry him?

Edited April 17, 2015 by ALarson

[carbon dioxide]

 

As to your other questions, the answers should be obvious.  I don't need a scripture to know it's wrong for a man to marry another man's wife even if the wife is ok with it.  How is that not adultery if she doesn't divorce you first?

 

And, what if the 14 year old was your daughter and she came to you and said she was marrying a 37 year old man who already had dozens of other wives?  You'd be ok with that if she told you he was a Prophet and God wanted her to marry him?

How about if both the husband and the wife are ok with it.  It is still wrong?

 

Lets take things one at a time.  Is the problem a 14 year old marrying a 37 year old or the that the 37 year old has other wives?   How about a 28 year old marrying a 15 year old.  You know, Illinois Gov Ford marrying 15 year old Frances Hambaugh.  What we might call wrong in 2015 may have been ok 170 years ago. 

 

I married a 20 year old.  Who is to say that the laws and society will not change in 100 years and it will be unacceptable for people to marry before 25.  Would it be right for the people to say I was wrong because I married a 20 year old even though it was legal and ok in my day?

Edited April 17, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[HappyJackWagon]

"I think when all facts are finally known and Joseph Smith explains what it was all about, a lot of people will be pleading Joseph for forgiveness for making hasty conclusions that turned out to be false."

I'd take that bet.

[JLHPROF]

 

As to your other questions, the answers should be obvious.  I don't need a scripture to know it's wrong for a man to marry another man's wife even if the wife is ok with it.  How is that not adultery if she doesn't divorce her husband before being with another man?

 

It's not adultery because only one marriage was valid in the eyes of God.

Except in cases where there was a husband for time and another husband for eternity and sexual relations were only had with one.  Then both marriages were valid AND there was still no adultery.

 

 

 

And, what if the 14 year old was your daughter and she came to you and said she was marrying a 37 year old man who already had dozens of other wives?  You'd be ok with that if she told you he was a Prophet and God wanted her to marry him?

 

If I truly believed it was God's will and that he was a prophet, yes.

[JLHPROF]

"I think when all facts are finally known and Joseph Smith explains what it was all about, a lot of people will be pleading Joseph for forgiveness for making hasty conclusions that turned out to be false."

I'd take that bet.

 

You're on.

This entire dispensation will be answering to Joseph, and many will need to apologize.

[JulieM]

Carbon dioxide, did you see my question above. When has God commanded someone to live polygamy (other than claims from Mormon history)? Thanks

[JLHPROF]

Carbon dioxide, did you see my question above. When has God commanded someone to live polygamy (other than claims from Mormon history)? Thanks

 

Commanded - not sure.

Actively encouraged -

2 Samuel 12

⁷ And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

⁸ And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

Edited April 17, 2015 by JLHPROF

[JulieM]

Thank you for answering JHLPROF. So really nowhere has God commanded polygamy to be lived. I know you believe Joseph Smith was from what I've read you say on here. I disagree with you on that but realize neither of us will likely change our mind.

I wonder who carbon dioxide was referring when he wrote:

If Polygamy is wrong then it is not always bad to be wrong.  Even God is wrong because he has commanded polygamy in the past.

The Mormons?

[JulieM]

So, why did polygamy need to be restored or lived again if it had never been commanded by God previously here on earth?

[JLHPROF]

Thank you for answering JHLPROF. So really nowhere has God commanded polygamy to be lived. I know you believe Joseph Smith was from what I've read you say on here. I disagree with you on that but realize neither of us will likely change our mind.

I wonder who carbon dioxide was referring when he wrote:

The Mormons?

 

So, why did polygamy need to be restored or lived again if it had never been commanded by God previously here on earth?

 

This is what I call selective reading, turning a blind eye to the subtle references all throughout scripture.

 

2 Samuel says God gave David plural wives.  Not a command but a clear active engagement in someone living plural marriage.

Jacob 2:30  says "I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things." where God states that it is an option for him to command it when he wants.

And of course D&C 132 which was a revelation commands it.

And Christ said we were to do the works of Abraham.  Which works?

And I have given my beliefs on Christ and the three women I consider to be his wives and the scriptural evidence behind it.

 

So God in scripture may not have given it as the 11th commandment, and you can ignore these if you like.  Along with the covenant taken in the sealing ceremony.  Makes the meat and milk thing more understandable to me when I see this.

But they're pretty clear to me.

Edited April 17, 2015 by JLHPROF

[JulieM]

I appreciate your answers and sources JLHPROF, but even you call them only "subtle references". So they can be interpreted different ways. From these references, I see no one commanded to go out and marry other women like Joseph Smith claimed happened (by an angel with a drawn sword even!). I really do believe it was his idea and was wrong. But we're both entitled to our opinions and I want to thank you again for your help. Those scripture references are interesting to read.

[JLHPROF]

I appreciate your answers and sources JLHPROF, but even you call them only "subtle references". So they can be interpreted different ways. From these references, I see no one commanded to go out and marry other women like Joseph Smith claimed happened (by an angel with a drawn sword even!). I really do believe it was his idea and was wrong. But we're both entitled to our opinions and I want to thank you again for your help. Those scripture references are interesting to read.

 

You're welcome.  To me the unavoidable connection to Joseph Smith making up the whole polygamy thing is that the Church would no longer have any authority.  I see no way round that, nor can I accept it based on what the Church has taught.

 

It would also make Wilford Woodruff a liar for claiming a revelation instructing him to withdraw plural marriage from the Church.  God wouldn't withdraw a law he never gave.  He would instead give a sharp rebuke for committing such a serious sin.

[carbon dioxide]

Carbon dioxide, did you see my question above. When has God commanded someone to live polygamy (other than claims from Mormon history)? Thanks

 

First, you will agree that in the Bible, nobody is every condemned for living polygamy.  Great men of God practiced it like Abraham and Jacob and lesser known ones like Abijah.  Anyone who says that polygamy is always wrong can only say that if they completely ignore the scriptures. 

 

Second, polygamy is only seen as wrong because people today have been influenced by western society that proclaims it to be generally wrong.  Of course this same western society generally thinks premarital sex is ok, abortion is fine, and  views gay relationships as more acceptable now.  Western morality is not necessarily morality that closest to God.  Often western morality gets worse as time goes on.

 

Third, want a place where polygamy would be commanded or required?  Deut 25:5-10

 

5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband’s brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband’s brother unto her.

 

6 And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel.

 

7 And if the man like not to take his brother’s wife, then let his brother’s wife go up to the gate unto the elders, and say, My husband’s brother refuseth to raise up unto his brother a name in Israel, he will not perform the duty of my husband’s brother.

 

8 Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak unto him: and if he stand to it, and say, I like not to take her;

 

9 Then shall his brother’s wife come unto him in the presence of the elders, and loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face, and shall answer and say, So shall it be done unto that man that will not build up his brother’s house.

 

10 And his name shall be called in Israel, The house of him that hath his shoe loosed.

 

Now put this into application.  Steve and Jack are brothers.  Both Steve and Jack are married.  Steve does not have any kids.  Steve gets killed.  So what is Jack supposed to do.  Jack who his married is supposed to take Steve wife.  Jack now has two wives.  Deut 25 5-10 does not care if the living brother is married or not.  It is not relevant.  The living brother is to take the wife of the dead brother. 

 

There you have a example of polygamy being required or commanded.

[Tacenda]

If Polygamy is wrong then it is not always bad to be wrong. Even God is wrong because he has commanded polygamy in the past.

Disagree 100%.