Gay Marriage At Scotus: One Wedding Ring Thread To Rule Them All...

[Danzo]

The "How does ssm hurt your marriage" is a counter-claim to traditional marriage crowd opposing ssm by claiming that "Ssm hurts traditional marriage". The counter-claim (or more candidly a call for proofs) goes back to the Proposition 8 days.

 

Do you think it is possible for a law to be created that could undermine marriage as an institution without directly affecting your marriage?

 

I think the counterclaim does not directly address the claim. (happens a lot)

[Danzo]

 Why, because, if you are an attorney, then you know that legal arguments are largely fact specific. 

 

Some arguments are fact specific, other arguments are law specific. Many times, the result of a case depends on which definitions one accepts. In law we have something called summary judgment, where the facts are in agreement, but the interpretation of the law isn't.

[Danzo]

I would like to offer that comparing ssm to incest, beastiality, or plural marriage to be considered "Goodwin" type violations.

 

 

I am sorry if that was how it came across, I wasn't trying to imply that any of the relationships that I listed had a sexual component, I should have made that clear.

[california boy]

People can marry their room mates, pen pals, etc.  But that means (usually) changing the nature of the relationship to something other than being roommates, pen pals, buddys ect, because marriage should (in my opinion) be something more.  

 

However, changing the definition of marriage to be so inclusive that any relation can be called a marriage even if it is only one of the above, dilutes the definition of marriage to make it meaningless.

 

If you could indulge me, what do you think the definition of marriage should be?

 

Once again, I find myself mostly in agreement with you.  When room mates, pen pals etc marry, it does change the nature of those relationships.  But I find that is also true with gay couples.  When the gay couples that I know have choosen to marry, it has changed the nature of their relationship as well.  The same would be true with straight couples.  So I am not really seeing how gay marriage is going to change anything.  What was true before the legalizing of gay marriage will be true after the legalizing of gay marriage.  How could anyone claim anything different.

 

My definition of marriage?  The only defintion change will be marriage is between two consenting adults.  

[Danzo]

 

My definition of marriage?  The only defintion change will be marriage is between two consenting adults.  

 

But what does it mean for any two consenting adults to be married?

 

Must it involve Sexual relations?

 

Can any two consenting adults be married for any reason?

 

For Immigration purposes only?

 

To claim tax benefits only?

 

To claim health benefits only?

 

To claim social security benefit only?

 

Only So that they can later claim a deduction for alimony on the money they give to their partners?

 

Can they stop being married just as conveniently as the get married?

[california boy]

But what does it mean for any two consenting adults to be married?

 

Must it involve Sexual relations?

 

Can any two consenting adults be married for any reason?

 

For Immigration purposes only?

 

To claim tax benefits only?

 

To claim health benefits only?

 

To claim social security benefit only?

 

Only So that they can later claim a deduction for alimony on the money they give to their partners?

 

Can they stop being married just as conveniently as the get married?

 

It involves exactly all the same benefits and legal obligations that any marriage contains.  No difference,  Marriage is the same for everyone legally married in the United States. .

 

I think that is the whole point of legalizing gay marriage nationally.  Everyone should be treated equally under the laws of this country.  We shouldn't have separate rules for gay marriages, interracial marriages, interreligious marriages or any other different combinations of who is marrying.  What ever a straight marriage is legally allowed to do in your laundry list of questions, a gay couple should be allowed to do.  Why do you even ask this question?

Edited April 11, 2015 by california boy

[Danzo]

It involves exactly all the same benefits and legal obligations that any marriage contains.  No difference,  Marriage is the same for everyone legally married in the United States. .

 

I think that is the whole point of legalizing gay marriage nationally.  Everyone should be treated equally under the laws of this country.  We shouldn't have separate rules for gay marriages, interracial marriages, interreligious marriages or any other different combinations of who is marrying.  What ever a straight marriage is legally allowed to do in your laundry list of questions, a gay couple should be allowed to do.  Why do you even ask this question?

 

It goes to the very definition of marriage, which (I think) is what this whole debate is about.

[thesometimesaint]

I think you understand exactly what is at stake.  If the ability to marry is given to anyone, without restriction, it must eventually be given to everyone.

 

There are always restrictions on everything we do. The purpose of government is to remove as many unnecessary restrictions as possible. IE; Mormons and the state of Virginia thought that a necessary restriction on marriage was misanthropy based on race. They were wrong.

Edited April 12, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[Kenngo1969]

There are always restrictions on everything we do. The purpose of government is to remove as many unnecessary restrictions as possible. ...

Hmmm ...  that's an interesting conception of government.

[thesometimesaint]

I kinda like it. It cuts through a lot of the gobbledegook of silly laws that are and were on the books. We have millions of laws in the country just to enforce 3 of the 10 Commandments. Don't lie, Don't steal, and don't kill(Murder).

[Brian 2.0]

But what does it mean for any two consenting adults to be married?

Must it involve Sexual relations?

Can any two consenting adults be married for any reason?

For Immigration purposes only?

To claim tax benefits only?

To claim health benefits only?

To claim social security benefit only?

Only So that they can later claim a deduction for alimony on the money they give to their partners?

Can they stop being married just as conveniently as the get married?

How are the answers to any of those questions different for the traditional definition of marriage vs one that includes same sex couples?

[Mormonmaniac]

It is true, gay couples can not have children.  But gay couples who are not married can also not have children.  So legalizing gay marriage does nothing to change the procreation process between gays or straight couples.  When gay marriage is legalized, straight couples will still be able to have children.  Nothing will change.  

 

So how will gay marriage destroy traditional families???  I am very open to being convinced.  Just give me your logical rational for your very serious claim that gay marriage will destroy traditional families.

Homosexuals are not part of God's plans Everything either leads to families or takes away from them. Homosexuality takes away from families. Its rather plain to see.

[tonie]

Homosexuals are not part of God's plans Everything either leads to families or takes away from them. Homosexuality takes away from families. Its rather plain to see.

 

 

Are you sure you want to speak for God and His plans?

 

 

Bible: And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him

 

Book of Mormon: And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

 

Apostle of the Lord:

 

Same-Gender Attraction

By Elder Dallin H. Oaks, October 1995

"Some kinds of feelings seem to be inborn."

"All of us have some feelings we did not choose,..."

"We did not choose these personal susceptibilities either,..."

"Perhaps such susceptibilities are inborn or acquired without personal choice or fault, like the unnamed ailment the Apostle Paul called “a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure”"

“Most of us are born with [or develop] thorns in the flesh, some more visible, some more serious than others."

"We all seem to have susceptibilities to one disorder or another,..."

 

The Lord's Church:

 

Where the Church stands:

The experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

A Collection of Conversations:

"There is no change in the Church’s position of what is morally right. But what is changing — and what needs to change — is to help Church members respond sensitively and thoughtfully when they encounter same-sex attraction in their own families, among other Church members, or elsewhere."

[california boy]

Homosexuals are not part of God's plans Everything either leads to families or takes away from them. Homosexuality takes away from families. Its rather plain to see.

 

This is your original post

 

Gay marriage, if allowed, will be one great hit on American and worldwide freedom, a truly sad horrific day. 

 

 

This is a pretty dire prediction.  How does legalizing gay marriage change anything at all.  The church commands gay members to be celibate.  That also damns them from having any families here on earth.  So what will be the effect to cause this horrific day for worldwide freedom when gay marriage is legalized?  It seems that either way gay couples won't be having a family.  Virtually nothing changes one way or the other.

 

As you stated above if by being gay then you are not part of the plan of salvation then what difference does it make whether they marry or not? For that matter, what difference does it make if a gay member keeps any of the commandments at all if they are not part of the plan of salvation?  

 

If it makes you feel any better, I came to the exact same conclusions.  If you are gay, you are screwed.  But I don't see any difference in the slightest one way or the other for world wide freedom and your dire prediction.

[smac97]

Just saw this, thought it apt:

 

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[tonie]

A point of discussion that may play a pivotal role in the SCOTUS decision will be whether sexual orientation/gender identity is an inborn characteristic. Inborn or not, will not be the only consideration.  Some that oppose protection for sexual orientation or Identity regard orientation or identity as solely a choice, and as such not entitled to protection under the law.

 

Could the same be said of religion?

 

Is religion inborn?

Is a subseptibility to religion inborn?

Is religion a choice?

[Stone holm]

Our freedom ultimately lies in the strength of families. Gay marriage is not family but a destruction of it. I am firm on this, I will not give.

Actually an older gay community member complained to me that, the whole SSM thing is causing a revolution in the gay community as the married gays with their children are demanding that "family values" be observed at their functions. So now they have to put up with all kinds of censorship because of the SS families. What is really destroying the American middle class family is not Phil marrying Bob, or some teenage girl in poverty getting an abortion, or some dude watching porn, it's our economic system. Families are being economically crushed.

[carbon dioxide]

Just saw this, thought it apt:

 

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

Of course all but the last one are more in the emergency situation category.    So I think it mixes apples and oranges. 

[smac97]

Of course all but the last one are more in the emergency situation category.    So I think it mixes apples and oranges. 

 

I don't think so.  Person S who "hates" T would likely not help T because S hates T.  However, if Person S does not hate T, then there are all sorts of circumstances under which S could and would readily interact with T, up to and including emergent circumstances.  But I don't think it follows that S should, under threat by the State of huge, livelihood-destroying fines, and possibly even imprisonment, be forced to interact with T in circumstances that S finds morally/religiously objectionable.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[The Nehor]

So in the second parable of the Samaritan

Just saw this, thought it apt:

 

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

How in the world can anyone call this biblical morality? From where in the bible is it pulled?

[tonie]

Would a Christian who is opposed to divorce, bake a cake for a "Christian" divorcee who is remarrying?

[Mormonmaniac]

Actually an older gay community member complained to me that, the whole SSM thing is causing a revolution in the gay community as the married gays with their children are demanding that "family values" be observed at their functions. So now they have to put up with all kinds of censorship because of the SS families. What is really destroying the American middle class family is not Phil marrying Bob, or some teenage girl in poverty getting an abortion, or some dude watching porn, it's our economic system. Families are being economically crushed.

I grew up dirt poor. My family grew very very strong in our poorest economic times than at any other times. There were times we didnt have electricity or running water or indoor plumbing and not knowing where our next meal would come from. My fondest memories are those because we grew very close together through our hardships.

[Mormonmaniac]

Are you sure you want to speak for God and His plans?

 

 

Bible: And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him

 

Book of Mormon: And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

 

Apostle of the Lord:

 

Same-Gender Attraction

By Elder Dallin H. Oaks, October 1995

"Some kinds of feelings seem to be inborn."

"All of us have some feelings we did not choose,..."

"We did not choose these personal susceptibilities either,..."

"Perhaps such susceptibilities are inborn or acquired without personal choice or fault, like the unnamed ailment the Apostle Paul called “a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure”"

“Most of us are born with [or develop] thorns in the flesh, some more visible, some more serious than others."

"We all seem to have susceptibilities to one disorder or another,..."

 

The Lord's Church:

 

Where the Church stands:

The experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

A Collection of Conversations:

"There is no change in the Church’s position of what is morally right. But what is changing — and what needs to change — is to help Church members respond sensitively and thoughtfully when they encounter same-sex attraction in their own families, among other Church members, or elsewhere."

Homosexual marriage is a world of difference than SSA. Just because we are attracted to something doesnt have to define our predicament.

[rockpond]

Homosexual marriage is a world of difference than SSA. Just because we are attracted to something doesnt have to define our predicament.

 

Except for heterosexuals... no problem letting that define our "predicament".

Edited April 13, 2015 by rockpond

[Mormonmaniac]

This is your original post

 

 

This is a pretty dire prediction.  How does legalizing gay marriage change anything at all.  The church commands gay members to be celibate.  That also damns them from having any families here on earth.  So what will be the effect to cause this horrific day for worldwide freedom when gay marriage is legalized?  It seems that either way gay couples won't be having a family.  Virtually nothing changes one way or the other.

 

As you stated above if by being gay then you are not part of the plan of salvation then what difference does it make whether they marry or not? For that matter, what difference does it make if a gay member keeps any of the commandments at all if they are not part of the plan of salvation?  

 

If it makes you feel any better, I came to the exact same conclusions.  If you are gay, you are screwed.  But I don't see any difference in the slightest one way or the other for world wide freedom and your dire prediction.

Gay marriage legalization paves the way for a whole line of immoral acceptance and rule. You already hear of how even our language is changing to be careful not to hurt our LGBT populations. We give an inch and they take a mile. Freedom is closely related to agency. As a society we will have less and less freedom as we pass immorality into law. Gods laws enhance our freedom. Immoral laws take away from our freedom. Its possible to become even as Sodom and Gomorrah where we have accepted immorality so much that we start to not only embrace it but worship it and take part in it. At that point we are no longer free to do God's will. You want your immorality, you can have it, just dont impose it upon the rest of us in society who want morals.