The Gay Wedding Cake Conundrum

[Brian 2.0]

So would I. What they do with the cake is their business, really.

But if they ask me to decorate the cake with an obscenity, or with statements or images which I find objectionable, then I would decline

 

 

And you'd be totally in your rights to do that. I don't think anyone is asking for that since that would fall under free speech laws according to the courts.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Brian 2.0

[Kenngo1969]

One man's deeply held religious belief is the other man's antithesis of his deeply held religious belief. How should the law decide which to enforce? We as a country have decided that neither are subjects for the law. But that when in commerce open to the public the business owner must agree to sell to all regardless of race, creed, color, religion, national origin, sex, and increasingly sexual orientation.

OK.  I think there's still room for argument, but I'll grant, for purposes of this discussion, that (as you always do ) you've done an admirable job telling me what the law is.  You are one of the people I had in mind when I said that people on one side of the debate cheer, "Fourteenth Amendment Equal Protection!"  Now, just to be clear, reaffirm for me that you're saying that the only time a religious man's religion should matter is on his holy day, and within the walls of his own church.  And tell me why Employment Division v. Smith and its progeny were rightly decided.

 

P.S.: Did the Fourteenth Amendment, and court decisions interpreting it, "tone down" the First Amendment, so that First Amendment protection of religious exercise really is no different than Fourteenth Amendment equal protection of religious exercise?  If so, why even have a First Amendment Free Exercise Clause?  Aren't you essentially saying that the First Amendment's Free Exercise clause is superfluous? 

Edited April 9, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[Damien the Leper]

Actually, what is ignorant is not recognizing that the problem lies with not the cake but the private event that the public business owner is forced into participating in. There in lies the real issue.

 

So no, you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

 

 

 

And..... what Smac said.

Had you actually paid attention to my post, you'd see that it wasn't about the cake. I addressed other "religious" reasons why a baker would discriminate. A person being non-evangelical could be a reason not to do business. Or a couple who has had premarital sex and living together. Cherry picking the 'sin' that disqualifies business is hypocrisy and anti-Christian.

[Damien the Leper]

It is disingenuous, if not an outright lie, that being conservative is somehow synonymous with being against certain types of marriage. I don't believe in gay marriage. I believe in marriage. I don't gay park my car. I park my car.

[The Nehor]

This thread is clearly about gay cakes. If you want to talk about gay couples getting cakes we have multiple threads addressing this issue. Please do not derail my thread.

[Damien the Leper]

Nehor, will you marry me so we can have a great gay cake?

[Gray]

My question is, what would a straight cake look like? I mean, a straight cake conceived by a straight man. It wouldn't look like a wedding cake. Would it be a side of beef, with Heinz 57 frosting? 

 

Then again, that could be a cake that is working entirely too hard at passing. 

Edited April 9, 2015 by Gray

[Brian 2.0]

My question is, what would a straight cake look like? I mean, a straight cake conceived by a straight man. It wouldn't look like a wedding cake. Would it be a side of beef, with Heinz 57 frosting? 

 

Then again, that could be a cake that is working entirely too hard at passing. 

 

This is a straight cake

 

 

... but few there be that find it.

[thesometimesaint]

OK.  I think there's still room for argument, but I'll grant, for purposes of this discussion, that (as you always do ) you've done an admirable job telling me what the law is.  You are one of the people I had in mind when I said that people on one side of the debate cheer, "Fourteenth Amendment Equal Protection!"  Now, just to be clear, reaffirm for me that you're saying that the only time a religious man's religion should matter is on his holy day, and within the walls of his own church.  And tell me why Employment Division v. Smith and its progeny were rightly decided.

 

P.S.: Did the Fourteenth Amendment, and court decisions interpreting it, "tone down" the First Amendment, so that First Amendment protection of religious exercise really is no different than Fourteenth Amendment equal protection of religious exercise?  If so, why even have a First Amendment Free Exercise Clause?  Aren't you essentially saying that the First Amendment's Free Exercise clause is superfluous? 

 

 I have no problem debating the argument. It does help give me a better understanding of what you are thinking.

 

I would hate to have to decide which of my rights as citizen I must give up in order to protect my other rights I have as a citizen. Must I give up my right to peaceably assemble in the church of my choice in order to keep my choice of religion? That really is a Sophie's Choice.

 

I'm fine with everyone acting on their religious beliefs every day of the week and twice(or more) on any day of the week, month, year they consider holy. It really makes no difference to me. But I do insist that those actions not include those unwilling to be part of that action. Some religious sects have a theology of self flagellation. I don't believe in it. But as long as they can't force my, or others, unwilling participation then I really have no say in it.

 

I don't believe the 14th Amendment tone-down the 1st Amendment. I believe the reality is that it gave greater voice to the 1st Amendment for all citizens not just certain ones.

Edited April 9, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[Kenngo1969]

Nehor, will you marry me so we can have a great gay cake?

Aren't you already married?  I'm pretty sure a law prohibiting bigamy is still on the books in your jurisdiction, isn't it?

 

P.S.: Sorry to put a damper on the giddy excitement of your wedding plans.

 

Edited April 9, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

 I have no problem debating the argument. It does help give me a better understanding of what you are thinking.

 

I would hate to have to decide which of my rights as citizen I must give up in order to protect my other rights I have as a citizen. Must I give up my right to peaceably assemble in the church of my choice in order to keep my choice of religion? That really is a Sophie's Choice.

 

I'm fine with everyone acting on their religious beliefs every day of the week and twice(or more) on any day of the week, month, year they consider holy. It really makes no difference to me. But I do insist that those actions not include those unwilling to be part of that action. [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969].  Some religious sects have a theology of self flagellation. I don't believe in it. But as long as they can't force my, or others, unwilling participation then I really have no say in it.

 

I don't believe the 14th Amendment tone-down the 1st Amendment. I believe the reality is that it gave greater voice to the 1st Amendment for all citizens not just certain ones.

OK, what do you call being forced to bake/sell a cake that violates one's religious convictions?

[The Nehor]

Nehor, will you marry me so we can have a great gay cake?

I think I will stick with a straight wedding with gay cake.

Aren't you already married?  I'm pretty sure a law prohibiting bigamy is still on the books in your jurisdiction, isn't it?

 

P.S.: Sorry to put a damper on the giddy excitement of your wedding plans.

 

Though if you are married I am okay with the polygamy thing.

[Damien the Leper]

Aren't you already married?  I'm pretty sure a law prohibiting bigamy is still on the books in your jurisdiction, isn't it?

 

P.S.: Sorry to put a damper on the giddy excitement of your wedding plans.

 

No. We called it off. We have mutual reasons for our choice to split. It was amicable.

[The Nehor]

No. We called it off. We have mutual reasons for our choice to split. It was amicable.

In that case I am only okay with the wedding if you are okay with adding other people to the marriage.

[Damien the Leper]

You are such a flirt, Nehor.

[thesometimesaint]

OK, what do you call being forced to bake/sell a cake that violates one's religious convictions?

 

That it's not about the cake. Cakes don't have religious convictions. It's the seller who does. I personally believe SSM is a sin. There is no requirement that I change my views. Further you'd probably be surprised at my rather extensive list of things I consider sins. It's far longer than what the Church does. But as long as they remain my personal beliefs. No other person, group, religion, institution, or government has much, if any, say in it. It is when I exit that personal sphere and try to impose them on others against their will that they have a say.

 

I used to occasionally bake a cake for my kids birthday party's(They're all grown up now with kids of their own. So I now bake the occasional birthday for the Grands). Believe me I'm no pastry chef. There was/is nothing requiring that I bake it or sell it. The baker/seller in your example has left the private sphere and is trying to impose his/her personal beliefs on others against their will.

[Mormonmaniac]

I want to open a Christian wedding cake store and cater specialty cakes and pastries to Christian weddings only. Is it lawful for me to do such? YES

[The Nehor]

I want to open a Christian wedding cake store and cater specialty cakes and pastries to Christian weddings only. Is it lawful for me to do such? YES

Perhaps but not in my thread unless said Christian cakes are also gay.

[thesometimesaint]

I want to open a Christian wedding cake store and cater specialty cakes and pastries to Christian weddings only. Is it lawful for me to do such? YES

 

There are Christians that believe that SSM is OK. So no you couldn't lawfully refuse to bake a cake for them.

 

Sorry for the derail Nehor.

[Gray]

Perhaps but not in my thread unless said Christian cakes are also gay.

 

Rainbow colored cross-shaped cake. Mmmm

[Brian 2.0]

I like they idea of consolidating threads. I find it funny that we are left with Nehors thread that is only supposed to be about actual cakes and not a discussion on the law and politics of it all.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Brian 2.0

[california boy]

I want to open a Christian wedding cake store and cater specialty cakes and pastries to Christian weddings only. Is it lawful for me to do such? YES

Sure you can do that as long as a gay couple can order one of your christian weddng cakes.

[carbon dioxide]

That it's not about the cake. Cakes don't have religious convictions. It's the seller who does. I personally believe SSM is a sin. There is no requirement that I change my views. Further you'd probably be surprised at my rather extensive list of things I consider sins. It's far longer than what the Church does. But as long as they remain my personal beliefs. No other person, group, religion, institution, or government has much, if any, say in it. It is when I exit that personal sphere and try to impose them on others against their will that they have a say.

 

I used to occasionally bake a cake for my kids birthday party's(They're all grown up now with kids of their own. So I now bake the occasional birthday for the Grands). Believe me I'm no pastry chef. There was/is nothing requiring that I bake it or sell it. The baker/seller in your example has left the private sphere and is trying to impose his/her personal beliefs on others against their will.

Baking a cake for a gay wedding is no worse than selling alcohol for a frat party.  I would not mind selling the cake.  Attending a gay wedding is something different. 

[rodheadlee]

I long for the days of the Mayan baseball threads, now it's all SSM all the time. I'll bake you a bunch of cakes for a good old geography thread or even a Kolob Theorem thread.  

[carbon dioxide]

I long for the days of the Mayan baseball threads, now it's all SSM all the time. I'll bake you a bunch of cakes for a good old geography thread or even a Kolob Theorem thread.

Its a topic that is slowly burning itself out with me.