Kenngo1969 Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 I dunno, Lot did Tis you who has the logic screwed up. Baking a cake is not being compelled to support anyone’s sin. Sez you, ergo, res ipsa loquitur? There are people of good will and of reasonable intelligence, who, in good conscience and good faith, earnestly believe otherwise, and who can make a reasonable, valid argument to the contrary. Your blithe dismissal does not one thing to change that. But thanks fer playin'!
rodheadlee Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 http://tenthousandplaces.org/2015/04/01/bake-for-them-two/ Takeaway: Jesus taught that if someone compels you to do something you disagree with, you should do even more than you've been compelled to do. Couple of quotes from the conclusion:I think that is great except we shouldn't be compelled by the law to do it and sued into financial oblivion if we don't. Charity doesn't count if it's forced. Charity to your neighbor has to be from the heart. 2
Nephi Inspired Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 A gay wedding is a sin. A person shouldnt be compelled into supporting it if they wish not to. I dunno. If two gay whales decide to get married I don't see how it is any of my business After all, I don't swim in the ocean very often 1
Gray Posted April 7, 2015 Author Posted April 7, 2015 I think he is asking if out of Christian compassion he should have sex with them twice. I guess that's up to him. None of my business, really. In any case, no one is legally compelled to do anything like that.
Gray Posted April 7, 2015 Author Posted April 7, 2015 Your logic is all screwed up. What you are proposing is if someone compels you to support their sin then you should doubly give. Lets apply this screwed up logic- If an adulterer comes and asks for your wife to lay with should you also give her your daughter also? You mean support their family? I don't think anyone is asking you to actually get married to someone you don't feel comfortable marrying.
Gray Posted April 7, 2015 Author Posted April 7, 2015 MM, I don't think the last applies because the counsel Jesus gave was in response to compelling by law, not asking someone for help in breaking it. Which is why Gray probably saw the question about being paid for sex irrelevant. Indeed
Gray Posted April 7, 2015 Author Posted April 7, 2015 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 1
thesometimesaint Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 Perhaps your argument would gain more traction if used in the case of someone who won't bake the cake ... period. I thought I made clear that I am not that person. Further, essentially, you have made the argument that some constitutional protections are more worthy of advancement than other constitutional protections. I don't necessarily disagree with you with respect to what the law is; however, whether the status quo adequately protects the constitutional rights of all involved also is an important question. In fact, it could be argued that Free Exercise rights should be preeminent because they are enshrined in the First Amendment. That said, I'm not necessarily making that argument. I think the regime I have proposed adequately protects both the cake baker's Free Exercise rights and the cake buyer's Equal Protection rights. There was just such a test case in Colorado. The plaintiff lost.SEE http://americablog.com/2015/04/refusing-write-anti-gay-messages-cake-isnt-discrimination.html You have the right the right to believe anything you want, even human sacrifice. ALL Christian believe Christ sacrificed himself for their sins. Few in the US today believe it is necessary to sacrifice others for their religion. What we don't have the right to is act in anyway we want to that infringes on the rights of others. IE; You have the religious right to swing your righteous fist. However that religious right ends at my nose. Why should it predominate over say the right to trial by jury of your peers before an impartial jury? After all Mormons need to exterminated or driven from the state. The cake buyer in your case doesn't have the equal protections of the law. 1
cinepro Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 Some one wants to pay for me to have sex with them. What is the take away there? Maybe you can enlighten all of us. If that's what's expected of cake-providers these days, I need to find a new bakery. 3
california boy Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 If I had a personal issue with baking a cake for a gay wedding instead of fighting it, I would bake them the best darned cake they have ever had with the disclosure that all proceeds from said cake will be donated to the LDS Church, or the GOP, or the NRA, or some pro-life group, or some other group that supports traditional marriage. But I don't think I would have a problem with it.Another GREAT solution.
california boy Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 And here is one more solution. A business is compelled by law to provide a wedding cake to ALL of their customers if they offer wedding cakes. Is all the baker has to do is take the order, contract out for the cake to be made and then have the customer pick up the cake. No attending or baking of the cake necessary, yet they are still in compliance under the law. Now the real question is, do we want solutions or do we just want to assert that christians have the right to break the law. If your only assertion is the latter, then christians should be prepared to face the penalties of breaking the law. 2
Brian 2.0 Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 A gay wedding is a sin. A person shouldnt be compelled into supporting it if they wish not to. Is selling a cake that will be used in a gay wedding supporting a sin?Is selling a bed to a gay married couple supporting a sin?Is selling a house to a gay married couple supporting a sin? 4
california boy Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 And just one more solution. Change the law. repeal the Civil Rights act. Open up discrimination once again across this nation. There you got three good solutions. You are free to choose the one that you like the best.
Kenngo1969 Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 (edited) There was just such a test case in Colorado. The plaintiff lost.SEE http://americablog.com/2015/04/refusing-write-anti-gay-messages-cake-isnt-discrimination.html If you'd like to talk law with me, that's fine. Point me to cases, not to blogs that spin them. In any case, again, I'm arguing less about the state of the law than what it should be. Again, I don't feel the law as it stands (or at least, as it is interpreted) provides sufficient protection of Free Exercise. You have the right the right to believe anything you want, even human sacrifice. ALL Christian believe Christ sacrificed himself for their sins. Few in the US today believe it is necessary to sacrifice others for their religion. Which makes that argument a red herring. Thanks for pointing that out. What we don't have the right to is act in anyway we want to that infringes on the rights of others. IE; You have the religious right to swing your righteous fist. However that religious right ends at my nose. Another red herring. I'm not arguing for anything that would infringe a gay couple's right to find a willing cake baker, and if I were in the business, I would be that cake baker. Why should it predominate over say the right to trial by jury of your peers before an impartial jury? After all Mormons need to exterminated or driven from the state. False equivalency and two more red herrings. And the Constitution says nothing about peer juries. The cake buyer in your case doesn't have the equal protections of the law. Nothing is preventing the cake buyer from finding a willing seller. And the cake seller in your case doesn't have Free Exercise. Edited April 7, 2015 by Kenngo1969
Jeanne Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 Duh..just once dd would like to see common sense mixed with the teachings of Jesus. Does one get extra halos or a special kind of faith for declining to make a $%$$ cake?? What difference will it make to YOU and your defense of traditional marriage to bake a cake? Jesus was a carpenter..I can see him offering not one, but a couple of shelves for any wedding. 1
filovirus Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 In the verse cited, it was not against the Jewish religious morals to carry the soldiers things for a mile. However, it was very berating in the eyes of the Jewish people to be forced to comply with this law. But no moral convictions were really involved. That said, people do have religious moral convictions now days in regards to what is gay marriage and their participation in it. Not arguing if it's right or wrong. This verse does not apply to the situation the OP is trying to support.
Flyonthewall Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 What if being more Christ-like involved telling them "go and sin no more". Would that be acceptable to those who want Christians to be more Christ-like? 2
sethpayne Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 My take is this:Do you REALLY think God will be displeased or consider YOU a sinner for baking a wedding cake for a gay couple?You and HE still consider their homosexual relations sin and recognize that fact. But is selling them a cake a sin? Condoning their sin? Participating in their sin?If there is no sin on your part, why should you discriminate? And if forced to by law, I really think God would be understanding if it was considered condoning. Well said, JLHPROF.
sethpayne Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 You mean support their family? I don't think anyone is asking you to actually get married to someone you don't feel comfortable marrying. Heaven forbid we actually try and support people who want to make a long-term commitment to one another. The HORROR!!! 2
california boy Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 I never could understand this rabid campaign against gay marriage. Is it more moral if gays just live together? Yet some Christians are shocked when they see the percentage of young people choosing not to marry. Even though they are the very ones that have been preaching that it is better for gay couples to just live together rather than marry. What message does that send to all young people?
guerreiro9 Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 I never could understand this rabid campaign against gay marriage. Is it more moral if gays just live together? Yet some Christians are shocked when they see the percentage of young people choosing not to marry. Even though they are the very ones that have been preaching that it is better for gay couples to just live together rather than marry. What message does that send to all young people?CFR. You have posted this fallacy repeatedly on this board. I would like the link to even a single statement where a gay marriage opponent is encouraging gays to shack up or stop making this claim.-guerreiro9 2
cinepro Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 (edited) In the verse cited, it was not against the Jewish religious morals to carry the soldiers things for a mile. However, it was very berating in the eyes of the Jewish people to be forced to comply with this law. But no moral convictions were really involved. That said, people do have religious moral convictions now days in regards to what is gay marriage and their participation in it. Not arguing if it's right or wrong. This verse does not apply to the situation the OP is trying to support. Baking a cake is not "participating" in a marriage, or even really endorsing it. LDS store owners routinely sell alcohol, coffee and cigarettes. LDS movie theater owners routinely show filthy R-rated movies. We are advised to be "in the world, but not of the world", and we have to make judgement calls in many areas of our lives and businesses. The idea that we are going to draw a line in the sand when it comes to providing services for gay weddings isn't a moral stand. It's prejudiced and misplaced ideals. Edited April 8, 2015 by cinepro 2
carbon dioxide Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 (edited) Is selling a cake that will be used in a gay wedding supporting a sin?Is selling a bed to a gay married couple supporting a sin?Is selling a house to a gay married couple supporting a sin?We are accountable for our own sins, and not others. I suppose if I sold my house to a man who wanted to turn it into a brothel or a drug house it would not be a sin on my part. I would not feel good about it however. Edited April 8, 2015 by carbon dioxide
Pahoran Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 That's not the question. If you are in the business of baking cakes for the public. You don't get a say in who buys those cakes based on race, creed, color, national origin, religion, sex, and increasingly sexual orientation. It really is that simple. There is no law requiring you to bake cakes, or putting anything on them you don't want to. If you bake wedding cakes for the public you don't get a say in who buys them. It is not a violation of the First Amendment to require a business to follow the law concerning public accommodations.And, as has been pointed out to you, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over:There has not been even one report of any business owner anywhere refusing to sell a cake to anyone "based on race, creed, color, national origin, religion, sex, and increasingly sexual orientation."Absolutely every single case that has been the cause of some vindictive punitive lawsuit has been based upon a principled objection to participating in a homosexual-themed event.There has been NOT ONE INSTANCE of anyone refusing to sell cakes or flowers or photographs to "gays."Not.One.Instance.And the fact that your clique always have to pretend otherwise proves that you know you have no valid argument.Regards,Pahoran 1
Pahoran Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 CFR. You have posted this fallacy repeatedly on this board. I would like the link to even a single statement where a gay marriage opponent is encouraging gays to shack up or stop making this claim. -guerreiro9 Keeping in mind that this is the same fellow who tried to pretend that the Church had only recently decided that homosexual relationships were contrary to the Law of Chastity, do you really think you are likely to get one? Regards, Pahoran
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