John Dehlin Appeals His Excommunication

[rockpond]

This is his post:

Oddly, he only has 5,424 "likes" on the Mormonstories Facebook page. I don't know what the expected number would be, but that seems like a really high ratio...

You don't have to like the FB page to download podcasts. And, as Brian alluded to, given the shaming that some of us receive for liking the MS page, it's not a surprise that many members don't show their support with a public and visible "like".

[ERayR]

meh.  this tired argument again.

 

I love how people that DIDN'T subscribe and follow MormonStories thinks JD was deceitful and now his fraud is made bare for his listeners to see.

 

And the people that DID subscribe and follow MormonStories say "what are you talking about"?

 

IMNSHO he was/is deceitful.  This will change nothing about how it is perceived.  To those who saw it as obvious it will still be obvious.  To those who had trouble seeing it that way it will remain so.

[Brian 2.0]

IMNSHO he was/is deceitful.  This will change nothing about how it is perceived.  To those who saw it as obvious it will still be obvious.  To those who had trouble seeing it that way it will remain so.

 

I guess I just assumed that he wasn't actively attending church when he literally said he wasn't attending church.

I guess I just assumed that he no longer believed the fundamental truth claims of the church when he literally said he no longer believed the fundamental truth claims of the church.

 

But I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder. 

[Brian 2.0]

IMNSHO he was/is deceitful.  This will change nothing about how it is perceived.  To those who saw it as obvious it will still be obvious.  To those who had trouble seeing it that way it will remain so.

 

Pre-essays... this same argument was had over and over about certain point of history or doctrine.  Polygamy, Polyandry, First Vision accounts, JS Papyrii, etc.  People criticized the church for being deceitful.  Defenders supplied articles from the Ensign from years back showing open discussion of it as defense that the church was not being deceitful, but had been open all along.  

 

Now the shoe is on the other foot and some of those same defenders accuse Dehlin of being deceitful regarding his motives or finances.  And people supply information from his podcasts or his website showing that he had been open all along.

 

How years-old statements from a church magazines show evidence of openness, but statements on John Dehlin's "about" page on his own website don't show openness is beyond me.  It stinks of double-standard smell.

 

... for the record I would not categorize the church or Dehlin as being "deceitful."

[rockpond]

IMNSHO he was/is deceitful.  This will change nothing about how it is perceived.  To those who saw it as obvious it will still be obvious.  To those who had trouble seeing it that way it will remain so.

 

As Brian said, all you had to do was listen to him to know that Dehlin was admittedly not an active, believing member over the past few years.  I think you'd have a tough time finding someone who has been as open & public about his doubt/disbelief.

[Calm]

He stated in an interview after he was excommunicated iirc that he knew as soon as he picked up a mic that he would be excommunicated.

That was an outlook he kept to himself.

Edited May 6, 2015 by calmoriah

[Antoni]

As Brian said, all you had to do was listen to him to know that Dehlin was admittedly not an active, believing member over the past few years.  I think you'd have a tough time finding someone who has been as open & public about his doubt/disbelief.

And the fact that first thing he does on podcasts is ask for money should be warning sign to anyone with an ounce of common sense.

[rockpond]

And the fact that first thing he does on podcasts is ask for money should be warning sign to anyone with an ounce of common sense.

 

Why's that?  Does making a living mean that one is deceitful?

[Antoni]

Why's that?  Does making a living mean that one is deceitful?

The pestering for money the moment you start the podcast is not indicative of his deceit - that comes pretty quickly after listening to him over a few podcasts in my opinion. Deceit might be too strong a word; "wanting to have his cake and eat it" would be better phrase.   I only ever listened to a couple prior to joining the church and found his ax grinding and chip on his shoulder a bore. As is his belief that the church is a cultural and social entity rather than a faith community. His actions during his excommunication also highlight his errors and flaws in my opinion.

 

The costs of running a website and podcast are miniscule (I know from my own experience). It shows he was more interested in priestcraft and making a bit of cash rather than the podcast content itself. His actions show his ego is too large and I'm not surprised he's got a little surge in downloads. I first heard about Greg Kofford books via a podcast of his so that's the good I got out of them and I'm glad I go onto that publisher early in my journey to joining the Church, but give it a few years and I'm sure he'll just be another bitter anti touting his wares around the usual cronies.

[rockpond]

The pestering for money the moment you start the podcast is not indicative of his deceit - that comes pretty quickly after listening to him over a few podcasts in my opinion. Deceit might be too strong a word; "wanting to have his cake and eat it" would be better phrase.   I only ever listened to a couple prior to joining the church and found his ax grinding and chip on his shoulder a bore. As is his belief that the church is a cultural and social entity rather than a faith community. His actions during his excommunication also highlight his errors and flaws in my opinion.

 

The costs of running a website and podcast are miniscule (I know from my own experience). It shows he was more interested in priestcraft and making a bit of cash rather than the podcast content itself. His actions show his ego is too large and I'm not surprised he's got a little surge in downloads. I first heard about Greg Kofford books via a podcast of his so that's the good I got out of them and I'm glad I go onto that publisher early in my journey to joining the Church, but give it a few years and I'm sure he'll just be another bitter anti touting his wares around the usual cronies.

 

It isn't priestcraft to make a living.  He was very upfront when he began his secondary education that he could only take the time to do the podcasts if donations helped support his family.  And, he reports each year how those donations are used.

[Antoni]

It isn't priestcraft to make a living.  He was very upfront when he began his secondary education that he could only take the time to do the podcasts if donations helped support his family.  And, he reports each year how those donations are used.

Making a living is a key part of priestcraft in my understanding. I still can't see how the costs of running this podcast require him needing to pester you for money straightaway. It shows a complete lack of faith. If he wants donations, tag a line or two on at the end or have a little button on website. But as it's FIRST thing that you hear I think it shows the importance he places on it.

 

Clearly you're a fan of his, clearly I'm not, so we'll agree to disagree.

[ALarson]

Making a living is a key part of priestcraft in my understanding. I still can't see how the costs of running this podcast require him needing to pester you for money straightaway. It shows a complete lack of faith. 

 

Easy fix:  Don't listen to his podcasts and don't send him any money.

 

But he has every right to ask for donations and to make a living.  

[ttribe]

He stated in an interview after he was excommunicated iirc that he knew as soon as he picked up a mic that he would be excommunicated.

That was an outlook he kept to himself.

 

Or it was "Hindsight is 20/20" nonsense.

 

 

BTW, I've never really bought into him saying he didn't want to create a following.  I think he enjoys, very much, the attention.  (I claim no special insight; just my impression from his actions over the years.)

[rockpond]

Making a living is a key part of priestcraft in my understanding.

 

A lot of people make a living.

[Antoni]

Easy fix:  Don't listen to his podcasts and don't send him any money.

 

 

But he has every right to ask for donations and to make a living. 

 

Yep - I followed the easy fix years ago

 

I don't say he can't ask for donations - I don't think he needs to and I object to him doing it straight away on the podcast. To me it was unnecessary . Maybe it's cultural us Brits don't like speaking about filthy lucre quite like you Americans do!

[Buckeye]

Making a living is a key part of priestcraft in my understanding. I still can't see how the costs of running this podcast require him needing to pester you for money straightaway. It shows a complete lack of faith. If he wants donations, tag a line or two on at the end or have a little button on website. But as it's FIRST thing that you hear I think it shows the importance he places on it.

 

Clearly you're a fan of his, clearly I'm not, so we'll agree to disagree.

 

Making a living is not priestcraft. Period. Otherwise all of our church leaders are or have in the past been practicing priestcraft. Surely you can't believe that.

 

Priestcraft happens when you use priesthood office/authority to obtain money. Like charging for baby blessings or passing the sacrament. Whatever wrongs have been committed by John, he's never been accused of charing money for using priesthood.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

Making a living is a key part of priestcraft in my understanding. I still can't see how the costs of running this podcast require him needing to pester you for money straightaway. It shows a complete lack of faith. If he wants donations, tag a line or two on at the end or have a little button on website. But as it's FIRST thing that you hear I think it shows the importance he places on it.

 

Clearly you're a fan of his, clearly I'm not, so we'll agree to disagree.

 

I love when people make this priestcraft argument. Are you suggesting that anyone who earns money or (makes a living) using gospel knowledge, teaching gospel principles, or selling gospel related products shows a lack of faith?

In addition to podcasts would priestcraft also include....

1- Church CES employees- institute and seminary teachers and supervisors?

2- General Authorities who receive a "modest stipend" for their work?

3- Producers of Christian/Mormon centered art

4- Deseret Book- All authors (including GA's) and employees

5- Anyone who tours for speaking assignments (think Time Out For Women)

6- Full time Temple employees (such as recorders)

7- LDS Family Services counselors

etc. etc.

There are MANY examples. One might even argue there is a culture of priestcraft but I won't go that far. According to your definitions all of these individuals are engaging in priestcraft

[HappyJackWagon]

Making a living is not priestcraft. Period. Otherwise all of our church leaders are or have in the past been practicing priestcraft. Surely you can't believe that.

Priestcraft happens when you use priesthood office/authority to obtain money. Like charging for baby blessings or passing the sacrament. Whatever wrongs have been committed by John, he's never been accused of charing money for using priesthood.

Or charging $$$ for patriarchal blessings. These things used to happen but this is an area where the church has made some good progress. Bishops don't even accept donations when performing funerals or weddings because it is part of their ecclesiastical duty.

[Jeanne]

Why's that?  Does making a living mean that one is deceitful?

Right..and there was a time when 10% of that went to the church.  I don't know of a spiritual person or religious organization that asks for money do you?

[Antoni]

 

 

I love when people make this priestcraft argument. Are you suggesting that anyone who earns money or (makes a living) using gospel knowledge, teaching gospel principles, or selling gospel related products shows a lack of faith?

In addition to podcasts would priestcraft also include....

1- Church CES employees- institute and seminary teachers and supervisors?

2- General Authorities who receive a "modest stipend" for their work?

3- Producers of Christian/Mormon centered art

4- Deseret Book- All authors (including GA's) and employees

5- Anyone who tours for speaking assignments (think Time Out For Women)

6- Full time Temple employees (such as recorders)

7- LDS Family Services counselors

etc. etc.

There are MANY examples. One might even argue there is a culture of priestcraft but I won't go that far. According to your definitions all of these individuals are engaging in priestcraft

 

Thanks - I don't have time to go into "my" definitions now - been on this board over an hour today - yikes!

 

but you said:

"In addition to podcasts would priestcraft also include....

1- Church CES employees- institute and seminary teachers and supervisors?

2- General Authorities who receive a "modest stipend" for their work?

3- Producers of Christian/Mormon centered art

4- Deseret Book- All authors (including GA's) and employees

5- Anyone who tours for speaking assignments (think Time Out For Women)

6- Full time Temple employees (such as recorders)

7- LDS Family Services counselors

etc. etc."

 

my answer is "No"

 

you said:

"I love when people make this priestcraft argument. Are you suggesting that anyone who earns money or (makes a living) using gospel knowledge, teaching gospel principles, or selling gospel related products shows a lack of faith?"

 

again my answer is "No" - should they "make a living"from it I'd say "no". (Some in your list I'd say should get stipends GA's for example and as they are called I see that VERY differently)

 

Will try and formulate my thoughts on it better for a future time.

 

Again my issue isn't so much Dehlin did ask for donations it was more the fact it was FIRST thing he does on podcasts.

[Antoni]

Right..and there was a time when 10% of that went to the church.  I don't know of a spiritual person or religious organization that asks for money do you?

It's the WAY it's asked for.

[Antoni]

Making a living is not priestcraft. Period. Otherwise all of our church leaders are or have in the past been practicing priestcraft. Surely you can't believe that.

 

Priestcraft happens when you use priesthood office/authority to obtain money. Like charging for baby blessings or passing the sacrament. Whatever wrongs have been committed by John, he's never been accused of charing money for using priesthood.

Thanks for this post Buckeye, have definitely got my understanding "lost in translation". and see my use of word Priestcraft is incorrect in above posts.

 

Thanks to others too - will think of new word going forward!!

 

(must go now as now been on here almost 1.5hrs!)

 

Light, Love and Peace

[HappyJackWagon]

 

Thanks - I don't have time to go into "my" definitions now - been on this board over an hour today - yikes!

 

but you said:

"In addition to podcasts would priestcraft also include....

1- Church CES employees- institute and seminary teachers and supervisors?

2- General Authorities who receive a "modest stipend" for their work?

3- Producers of Christian/Mormon centered art

4- Deseret Book- All authors (including GA's) and employees

5- Anyone who tours for speaking assignments (think Time Out For Women)

6- Full time Temple employees (such as recorders)

7- LDS Family Services counselors

etc. etc."

 

my answer is "No"

 

you said:

"I love when people make this priestcraft argument. Are you suggesting that anyone who earns money or (makes a living) using gospel knowledge, teaching gospel principles, or selling gospel related products shows a lack of faith?"

 

again my answer is "No" - should they "make a living"from it I'd say "no". (Some in your list I'd say should get stipends GA's for example and as they are called I see that VERY differently)

 

Will try and formulate my thoughts on it better for a future time.

 

Again my issue isn't so much Dehlin did ask for donations it was more the fact it was FIRST thing he does on podcasts.

 

I'll look forward to hearing your explanation

[Buckeye]

Or charging $$$ for patriarchal blessings. These things used to happen but this is an area where the church has made some good progress. Bishops don't even accept donations when performing funerals or weddings because it is part of their ecclesiastical duty.

 

I'm fine with nominal charges to cover costs. So travel for patriarchs, printing costs for the BOM, and publishing costs for church magazines. All fine in my book.

 

I'm also grateful that the church is in such good financial shape that we don't have to charge for most anything anymore. No more RS dues or fundraisers (mostly).

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Thanks for this post Buckeye, have definitely got my understanding "lost in translation". and see my use of word Priestcraft is incorrect in above posts.

 

Thanks to others too - will think of new word going forward!!

 

(must go now as now been on here almost 1.5hrs!)

 

Light, Love and Peace

Now if we can just get some people to admit that Gay marriage in the temple is a problem and that it will never happen.

 

Here is to wishful thinking.