Meldrum And May's New Real Estate Scheme

[DragonLancer]

http://www.bookofmormonevidence.org/feature.php?id=29

 

As some of you know, back in 2002, I co-authored a book with Wayne May that I have retracted.  Meldrum and May continue to print and sell that book and pretend I never had a part of it.

 

Amazing.  If this is a real archaeological site from the Hopewell time period, someone should be jailed for disturbing it.  And all it would prove is that there were Indians in Iowa in the Hopewell time period.  We already knew that, so that is not news.  And it would also prove that it is not Zarahemla because there are no major ruins there on the site.  Nothing is visible to indicate a major archaeological site.  At best, it is where some Indians may have camped once or twice.

I would question what the true purpose is for them taking "donations" to purchase "archaeological sites."

If this were truly Zarahemla as heartlanders claim, we would see amazing earthworks like in Ohio or Poverty point.  This is sure a poor excuse for even a Hopewellian Zarahemla.  It is interesting that none of the major earthworks in the eastern US coincide with any of the guessed sites of the heartlanders for the "most capital parts of the land."

Edited February 25, 2015 by DragonLancer

[rodheadlee]

Some people will have a lot of 'splaining to do come judgement day.

[kiwi2]

Suggest Meldrum & May read:  Is Zarahemla in Iowa?  And Other Fatal Flaws with the Heartland Theory -- by Tyler Livingston; before contributing to this real estate scheme.

[nosmelone]

^^^^^^^^Oh they've read it and like usual they choose to ignore it believe me. LOL

[cinepro]

Wow.  I've just got to say that the whole endeavor is really cool from a "faith" perspective.  I actually find it inspiring to see the energy they bring to this.  And I would love to see this!

 

 

 

If the temple site is verified, the plan is to continue the archaeological excavations at the site and begin the development of a new Native American Cultural Center along the lines of the Polynesian Cultural Center in Hawaii, complete with Native American villages, cultural museums, attractions, stages for performances, river boat rides across the Mississippi between Zarahemla and Nauvoo, etc.  We believe that this will also contribute to the revitalization of Nauvoo and bring further positive interest and attention to the Church and its mission.

Edited February 25, 2015 by cinepro

[The Nehor]

I wish I had no conscience. The money that can be made in scams like this...........

[nosmelone]

Wow.  I've just got to say that the whole endeavor is really cool from a "faith" perspective.  I actually find it inspiring to see the energy they bring to this.  And I would love to see this!

I have had the idea of something like this Native American Cultural Center in mind years ago but had actually pictured it more in the Northern Arizona around the Navajo/Hopi reservation area.   Of course I will openly admit I am bias towards a Mesoamerican BOM setting so I think Rod and Wayne are wasting their time but I will at least admit that the idea with the Nauvoo temple a rock throws distance away is interesting.

[Rob Osborn]

The heartland theory is the worst theory on BoM geography there is.

[cinepro]

I wish I had no conscience. The money that can be made in scams like this...........

 

I was originally going to take exception to the Thread title, but a "scheme" isn't necessarily dishonest, so I let it go.

 

But now that you've accused it of being a "scam", I've got to ask what evidence anyone has of this being anything than exactly what they say it is? 

 

Sure, I don't buy in to the theory behind the "scheme", and I don't see how that categorically proves they're conducting a "scam".

[Calm]

Not impressed by their choice of archaeologist. Can't find anything but self promotion and articles announcing his likely paid appearances.

[ERayR]

I was originally going to take exception to the Thread title, but a "scheme" isn't necessarily dishonest, so I let it go.

 

But now that you've accused it of being a "scam", I've got to ask what evidence anyone has of this being anything than exactly what they say it is? 

 

Sure, I don't buy in to the theory behind the "scheme", and I don't see how that categorically proves they're conducting a "scam".

 

 

Not impressed by their choice of archaeologist. Can't find anything but self promotion and articles announcing his likely paid appearances.

[Bob Crockett]

I see little difference between this and all those folks that make money from a Mesoamerican theory. How is it different?

[ERayR]

I see little difference between this and all those folks that make money from a Mesoamerican theory. How is it different?

 

Please list these Meso-american money making schemes.

[livy111us]

According to the heartland theory itself, it is impossible for Zarahemla to be in Iowa or anywhere within the borders of where they believe The Book of Mormon events to have taken place. The theory is so self-contradicting that it falls apart when you actually start putting the theory together.

 

This article and video show the impossibility of Zarahemla existing where they are currently digging.

 

 

 

http://www.bmaf.org/sites/bmaf.org/files/image/zarahemal1.pdf

[The Nehor]

I see little difference between this and all those folks that make money from a Mesoamerican theory. How is it different?

It's not.

Book of Mormon tours are a scam.

[The Nehor]

I was originally going to take exception to the Thread title, but a "scheme" isn't necessarily dishonest, so I let it go.

 

But now that you've accused it of being a "scam", I've got to ask what evidence anyone has of this being anything than exactly what they say it is? 

 

Sure, I don't buy in to the theory behind the "scheme", and I don't see how that categorically proves they're conducting a "scam".

I find it hard to believe that the people behind these are true believers.

[Bob Crockett]

Please list these Meso-american money making schemes.

 

Tour operators.

 

Even Dr. Sorenson's books make money.  Although he says he has donated the proceeds to FARMS, the sales certainly give him additional exposure and fund pro-Mesoamerican theorists . 

 

There certainly are many book authors who make money off a Mesoamerican theory.

 

I was on the grounds of the Mexican temple recently and their book store sold lots of trinkets and books promoting a Mesoamerican theory.  

 

Why are these things acceptable and what Meldrum is doing is not?  (Somebody would be a real sucker to give money without strings attach to invest in midwest real estate, but why not if it gives the giver psychic benefit?)

[Duncan]

Tour operators.

 

Even Dr. Sorenson's books make money.  Although he says he has donated the proceeds to FARMS, the sales certainly give him additional exposure and fund pro-Mesoamerican theorists . 

 

There certainly are many book authors who make money off a Mesoamerican theory.

 

I was on the grounds of the Mexican temple recently and their book store sold lots of trinkets and books promoting a Mesoamerican theory.  

 

Why are these things acceptable and what Meldrum is doing is not?  (Somebody would be a real sucker to give money without strings attach to invest in midwest real estate, but why not if it gives the giver psychic benefit?)

 

 

I think that leads into the discussion of why is there even a DeseretBooks et al. at all, all that stuff you don't need, we want all of it!!!! but don't need it

[The Nehor]

Tour operators.

Even Dr. Sorenson's books make money. Although he says he has donated the proceeds to FARMS, the sales certainly give him additional exposure and fund pro-Mesoamerican theorists .

There certainly are many book authors who make money off a Mesoamerican theory.

I was on the grounds of the Mexican temple recently and their book store sold lots of trinkets and books promoting a Mesoamerican theory.

Why are these things acceptable and what Meldrum is doing is not? (Somebody would be a real sucker to give money without strings attach to invest in midwest real estate, but why not if it gives the giver psychic benefit?)

I admit I have far less of a problem when the tour operators say this is the general area where we believe things happened. Still kind of odd but if you bundle it with touring Aztec, Mayan, or Incan ruins or whatever it's not a big deal to me. I know tour operators who keep it speculative and that works. When someone offers to take you to see where Zarahemla stood or tells you that this is where the Nephites lived I roll my eyes and they are getting scammey.

Meldrum's group usually lacks more for humility when it comes to their claims.

Edited February 26, 2015 by The Nehor

[Ferdinand55]

Why are these things acceptable and what Meldrum is doing is not?

Meldrum considers the Mesoamerican theory an "apostate theory".

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Geography/Models/Limited/Meldrum_2003/Alternate_theories_are_%22apostate%22

 

Meldrum makes it seem like anyone who accepts the Mesoamerican theory is going against latter-day prophets. He claims that Joseph Smith stated that the Book of Mormon took place within the United States. However, Joseph's stances varied more than Meldrum would like to admit:

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Geography/Statements/Nineteenth_century/Joseph_Smith%27s_lifetime_1829-1840/Joseph_Smith

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Geography/Disdaining_the_statements_of_Joseph_Smith

[The Nehor]

Meldrum considers the Mesoamerican theory an "apostate theory".

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Geography/Models/Limited/Meldrum_2003/Alternate_theories_are_"apostate"

 

Meldrum makes it seem like anyone who accepts the Mesoamerican theory is going against latter-day prophets. He claims that Joseph Smith stated that the Book of Mormon took place within the United States. However, Joseph's stances varied more than Meldrum would like to admit:

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Geography/Statements/Nineteenth_century/Joseph_Smith's_lifetime_1829-1840/Joseph_Smith

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Geography/Disdaining_the_statements_of_Joseph_Smith

Couple that with most Mesoamerican tour guides not making most of their living off preaching a particular geography. Meldrum is. His income depends on convincing people he is right and he is always selling. He has gotten in trouble for peddling his wares on church property. He is also not being academic about it. He is preaching with religious devotion. So he is preaching something to get gain and glory and bearing testimony of it. Whether or not you are preaching the truth at that point you are practicing priestcraft. A more mild version then my namesake taught but still damning.

[Bob Crockett]

Meldrum considers the Mesoamerican theory an "apostate theory".

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Geography/Models/Limited/Meldrum_2003/Alternate_theories_are_"apostate"

Meldrum makes it seem like anyone who accepts the Mesoamerican theory is going against latter-day prophets.

I think you may be surprised by the very harsh statements Mesoamerican theorists have said. In a 1976 article Dr. Sorenson said that Dr Paul Chessman was a threat to the Church.

I was a significant financial supporter of old FARMS and Jack Welch's very first paid research assistant. But I find many of the Mesoamerican articles in FARMS to be unduly bad spirited. They set the bar and it was a low one.

But, I am certainly on record for sarcastically referring to the Mesoamerican model as the Sorenson heresy, so I'm not the honest broker I pretend to be.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Bob Crockett

[Bob Crockett]

Couple that with most Mesoamerican tour guides not making most of their living off preaching a particular geography. Meldrum is. His income depends on convincing people he is right and he is always selling. He has gotten in trouble for peddling his wares on church property. He is also not being academic about it. He is preaching with religious devotion. So he is preaching something to get gain and glory and bearing testimony of it. Whether or not you are preaching the truth at that point you are practicing priestcraft. A more mild version then my namesake taught but still damning.

Most LDS tour operators in Mexico are in it for the money. I'd be surprised to hear that any are non profits.

I've read Meldrum's first book. He tries to be academic, particularly in his DNA discussion. I've also read attacks in FARMS publications by non-academics. Little difference.

Both sides are ghastly. Dr Sorenson is willing to go out on a limb with his professional reputation more than anybody else except for Clark and one or two others.

But, in terms of "academic", point me to a Mesoamerican theorist who has published his findings in a peer reviewed journal or peer reviewed university publishing house. The whole cottage industry of Mesoamerican Book of Mormon geographies is nutty, or at least so says BYU anthropologist Ray Matheny.

Cursed be the arm of the flesh.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Bob Crockett

[The Nehor]

Most LDS tour operators in Mexico are in it for the money. I'd be surprised to hear that any are non profits.

I've read Meldrum's first book. He tries to be academic, particularly in his DNA discussion. I've also read attacks in FARMS publications by non-academics. Little difference.

Both sides are ghastly. Dr Sorenson is willing to go out on a limb with his professional reputation more than anybody else except for Clark and one or two others.

But, in terms of "academic", point me to a Mesoamerican theorist who has published his findings in a peer reviewed journal or peer reviewed university publishing house. The whole cottage industry of Mesoamerican Book of Mormon geographies is nutty, or at least so says BYU anthropologist Ray Matheny.

Cursed be the arm of the flesh.

I am sure they are not non-profits. It is hard to run a non-profit tour site and considering how profit-orientated most non-profits are I would not be impressed if they did. I have no problem with people making money. I do have a problem with people preaching for gain. I bet some Mesoamerican tour groups cross the line and some do not.

I am not convinced both sides can be described as ghastly. I have interacted with ghastly individuals on both sides so I know individuals have achieved that status. This is to be expected. In any examination of something on the fringe of religion you tend to get some honestly curious individuals and a lot of cranks.

By academics I do not mean peer-review. I meant based on research, evidence, and good and honest guesswork like many historical studies are. There is no serious peer-review because there is not a large community of academia willing to accept the Book of Mormon as fact. Meldrum does try to argue for his location using reasoning although he tends to ignore and misrepresent evidence to do so. He also preaches and testifies of how right his theory is which sets off alarm bells and screams priestcraft.

[Bob Crockett]

By academics I do not mean peer-review. I meant based on research, evidence, and good and honest guesswork like many historical studies are. There is no serious peer-review because there is not a large community of academia willing to accept the Book of Mormon as fact. Meldrum does try to argue for his location using reasoning although he tends to ignore and misrepresent evidence to do so. He also preaches and testifies of how right his theory is which sets off alarm bells and screams priestcraft.

The problem with the Sorenson crowd is that they redefine science and academics in a way that isn't science and isn't academics.  

 

I admit to approaching it from a legal perspective where I deal with junk science issues frequently.   A court won't permit testimony about a scientific principle unless it meets certain standards, such as peer acceptance or peer discussion, reproducible results, discussion in peer literature, statistical methods and similar tests (none of which is particularly exclusive).

 

When you read Sorenson's works as well as those of his followers, you will see that "science" and secular "plausibility" dominate his and their discussion.  On this board, many of his followers denounce my refusal to acknowledge "science" and secular discussion of the Book of Mormon.  

 

Yet, Dr. Sorenson has never found a single LDS anthropologist who will agree with him in a secular environment - a BYU university secular publication, a peer reviewed publication.  Dr. Sorenson is not a cartographer or geographer and does not follow secular means of those disciplines to tie an ancient text to real-world past or present geography.  Dr. Sorenson does not publish in peer-reviewed journals his Book of Mormon musings but does so for his diffusionist musings.

 

Dr. Ray Matheny of BYU has certainly gone on record to say that Dr. Sorenson's views are unsupportable.

 

Further, his followers have similar issues.  My pending paper demonstrates that Roper and Fields published a "wordprint" study to tie the 1 Oct 1842 Times and Seasons Zarahemla article to Joseph Smith's authorship, where they both claim to be linguists (they aren't) and use a non-statistical disapproved wordprint methodology wherein they use only one of the three tests for the disapproved methodology.   Even so, neither they nor Sorenson agree that Zarahemla is likely in the location identified by "Joseph Smith" in the 1 Oct 1842 article.

 

Kevin Christianson has taken me to task in his nice way for refusing to consider non-traditional considerations and discussions of the Book of Mormon's text, but I'm just not willing to start reading Erich Von Daniken, either.

 

I certainly have no problem reading and understanding Dr. Sorenson's conclusions in a religious context,  But once I'm condemned here for not recognizing the science behind his conclusions (as one might be condemned on this board for not realizing the evolution trumps religion), I feel compelled to point out that it isn't science.  And, the only science I really criticize is the cartographic stuff.   The linguistic comparison of Native American words to Hebrew and Egyptian is a different matter and has a more verifiable source.  

Edited February 26, 2015 by Bob Crockett