The Problem With The First Vision Accounts

[Uncle Dale]

 

 

...

 

Mr Dale, I have this reflector copy of your site, I have used it many times. Now, let me asked you again, where in this "reflector" copy, is the lines, that specifically states that J Smith saw the Father and son? or that the Father and son appeared to him?,  ...I searched all your newspapers and have not found anyone claiming Smith saw the Father and Son, or anyone else for that matter...and I am Mr , and thank you

 

...

 

 

.

Why ask (or "asked," if that be proper grammar) me any such thing?

 

Why should I wish to help the Saints find and document what they

themselves cannot discover? --  (either in the 1830s newspapers

or in the preserved letters and diaries of our ancestors)?

 

You seem to have forgotten that I am typically viewed as an

anti-Mormon here at this interestingly provincial site.

 

UD

.

Of course anybody who might be inclined to skip past 1820 a few years, can find in an 1824 religious newspaper distinct

mention of a fellow, in the midst of the great upstate New York revival, who had claimed to have seen the Savior descending

to the tops of the trees -- Unfortunately that Christophany was reported to have occurred at noon, rather than in the morning

of a clear spring day.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[UtahTexan]

 

Cowboy, 

 

 

sorry, I have asked you to produce a document that corroborates what J Smith said, mainly that he told this story to a town of 600+  people in Palmyra in 1820 , this J Smith claims that he had a vision, he claims he told, all I want you to produce, is the evidence, that he told this experience, and I told you, forget J Smith claiming he told, just go to history in Palmyra and if J Smith   told this story and claimed he saw a vision (father son bit) than , there should be plenty , tons of evidence for this event, so I am asking the question, I need not to prove anything, you and this "prophet" are making the claim, and if he told, it should be very easy for anyone to find the evidence

 

Stop running!  Why are you so afraid?  I have asked you SEVERAL times to show me where it is required to announce heavenly visions.  I have asked you for evidence that shows that NOT announcing it proves it did not happen...now WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE?  Without that evidence, the point you are trying to make is silly and pointless.  Now...stop dodging...stop running...stop being afraid.

 

 

 

[Nemesis]

Cowboy, 

 

 

<<You must prove that it did not happen....you must prove that just because he did not tell people, it did not happen.   PROVE IT!  You can't.  CHECKMATE>>  When J Smith came into the scene with his tall tale, the Christian Church the Ekklesia was already established, so the burden of proof is on the mormon church and cowboys like you, to produce the evidence...Years later 22 years Joseph writes this tall tale and so the burden of proof is on you ...

 

Not horsing around.   I am just making you look silly.  Now....I have asled you to prove that not telling someone about an eent means it did not happen.  You have faile>>Listen , when you have sober up, I will continue to asked you again...you not only comprehend not reading,  you also have a problem writing a coherent sentence..

Knock off personal attacks and read the board rules.

Nemesis

[mfbukowski]

Knock off personal attacks and read the board rules.

Nemesis

Learning to spell wouldn't hurt his credibility either, except perhaps that he knows how to appeal to his particular audience.

[Uncle Dale]

Learning to spell wouldn't hurt his credibility either, except perhaps that he knows how to appeal to his particular audience.

 

.

Eleven thousand, five hundred postings ago, I myself

resorted to the same immature, biased (if not bigoted)

attempts at provoking folks (right here in River City).

 

TMessenger reminds me of my earlier self -- and of that

residual trace of scorn occasionally still discernible when

I converse with good board participants like yourself.

 

They say that diplomacy is best described as telling your

opponent that he is full of crap, while at the same time

winning his approving smile, with a friendly handshake.

 

Others (not a few Evangelical hotbloods included) would

call it "putting on a false face" and failing to confront the

Devil in his own lair.

 

 

UD

I prefer the Henry Kissinger approach, myself. But, there's

no accounting for taste.

[UtahTexan]

I have loved this thread and its LDS participants....I am feeling closer and closer to coming home

[Calm]

 

[omni]

Learning to spell wouldn't hurt his credibility either, except perhaps that he knows how to appeal to his particular audience.

I would take just learning how to use the quote function.

[Uncle Dale]

I would take just learning how to use the quote function.

 

Hey -- it's fun to sort through all the mixed-up text

in a series of quotes from two or three different

people -- and trying to figure out what goes where.

 

UD

(I miss my old Mr. PotatoHead -- do they still make them?)

[Calm]

Hey -- it's fun to sort through all the mixed-up text

in a series of quotes from two or three different

people -- and trying to figure out what goes where.

 

UD

(I miss my old Mr. PotatoHead -- do they still make them?)

Yes they do.  In a lot of variations.  I buy the Star Wars versions of them for my son and daughter.

Edited March 2, 2015 by calmoriah

[rodheadlee]

I have loved this thread and its LDS participants....I am feeling closer and closer to coming home

Come on Home, we'll leave the light on.

[UtahTexan]

Come on Home, we'll leave the light on.

 

I contacted the Missionaries on Mormon.org tonight

[TMESSENGER]

Why ask (or "asked," if that be proper grammar) me any such thing?>> because when you placed the print of the "reflector, you said.."...The best evidence for our concluding that Joseph

told somebody about his purported theophany can
be found in the pages of the Palmyra Reflector
(February 14, 1831). so I want you to show me the words or text, that mentioned the father and the son, in a manner to indicate, J Smith is claiming the Father and Son appeared to him...

 

<<Why should I wish to help the Saints find and document what they

themselves cannot discover? --  (either in the 1830s newspapers

or in the preserved letters and diaries of our ancestors)?>>  the reason, "they" cannot discover it?  because they cannot discover something that does not exists 

 

You seem to have forgotten that I am typically viewed as an

 

anti-Mormon here at this interestingly provincial site.>> I have mentioned you as a 'site" that collects newspapers in the Palmyra area, events pertaining to no "show" the alleged first vision ,before and after this event . I would considered you as neutral, because you are just stating the facts as per history of these newspapers...keep the good work...and by the way, my original native language is not English, I was born in Mexico city and just out of High School came to the USA and was given a scholarship to a local college here and soon enlisted in the USAF and made it a career, so bear with me , at times my English tells a different story...

[Uncle Dale]

 

...

at times my English tells a different story...

 

 

No problem with that. I've had to try and communicate with people

in languages not my native tongue, and I know it can be difficult.

 

Quite likely there IS NO OTHER 1820s or 1830s "evidence" of the

"first vision" of God the Father and Jehovah (as the Mormons say).

 

The "Reflector" mention and the additional 1824 mention by Elder

Alexander Campbell is all that WILL EVER BE DISCOVERED.

 

If I were LDS, I'd try to take some comfort in that fact, as it at least

closes the door upon any embarrassing "surprises" coming to light

about Joseph and visions during those early years.

 

Did he claim to have seen and heard God the Father, in New York?

I suspect that he made such a claim, but I cannot prove it, and the

available evidence is inconclusive.

 

Did he claim to have experienced that theophany four years before

the Great Palmyra Revival of 1824 -- before Alvin's death -- before

Mother Smith and some of her children joined the Presbyterians?

 

My conclusion is "no."

 

But there are others here posting to this forum who conclude that I

must be wrong. I'd guess that you may think I'm right.

 

???

 

UD

[mfbukowski]

.

Eleven thousand, five hundred postings ago, I myself

resorted to the same immature, biased (if not bigoted)

attempts at provoking folks (right here in River City).

 

TMessenger reminds me of my earlier self -- and of that

residual trace of scorn occasionally still discernible when

I converse with good board participants like yourself.

 

They say that diplomacy is best described as telling your

opponent that he is full of crap, while at the same time

winning his approving smile, with a friendly handshake.

 

Others (not a few Evangelical hotbloods included) would

call it "putting on a false face" and failing to confront the

Devil in his own lair.

 

 

UD

I prefer the Henry Kissinger approach, myself. But, there's

no accounting for taste.

I can never tell if you are agreeing or raking me over the coals.  You seem to be pretty good at doing both at the same time

[mfbukowski]

Hey -- it's fun to sort through all the mixed-up text

in a series of quotes from two or three different

people -- and trying to figure out what goes where.

 

UD

(I miss my old Mr. PotatoHead -- do they still make them?)

My very existence proves that they do.

[mfbukowski]

Yes they do.  In a lot of variations.  I buy the Star Wars versions of them for my son and daughter.

Not acceptable.

 

That's a potato BODY with a plastic head.   False advertising!   LIES!

[mfbukowski]

I contacted the Missionaries on Mormon.org tonight

Just be gentle with them. 

[TMESSENGER]

Countryboy,

 

 

<<Stop running!  Why are you so afraid?  I have asked you SEVERAL times to show me where it is required to announce heavenly visions.  I have asked you for evidence that shows that NOT announcing it proves it did not happen...now WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE?  Without that evidence, the point you are trying to make is silly and pointless.  Now...stop dodging...stop running...stop being afraid.>>You are inserting fallacies that have nothing to do of what J Smith said , Ii is obvious to me and the looky-looks  that you are not answering the question...one more time ..Give me a corroborating account from a person/friend/foe/newspaper/dairy/family/etc/ that J Smith told this story anywhere between 1820-to 1838...the burden of proof is on you...and J Smith that claims he told this story, if you keep referring to you mantra that I prove my point to you, I don't want to waste my time with you, and let us go on record that you did not answer the question, you are just plain filibustering the theme/issue...

[Uncle Dale]

Not acceptable.

 

That's a potato BODY with a plastic head.   False advertising!   LIES!

 

Birth certificate reads:

 

Baby Potato-Head -- vestigial body attached

eyes, ears, mouth, mustache, helmet, cap, 

hat, and light-saber delivered unattached.

 

 

UD

Attending Physician:

(Last seen entering the Asylum for the Incurably Insane)

[TMESSENGER]

No problem with that. I've had to try and communicate with people

in languages not my native tongue, and I know it can be difficult.

 

Quite likely there IS NO OTHER 1820s or 1830s "evidence" of the

"first vision" of God the Father and Jehovah (as the Mormons say).

 

The "Reflector" mention and the additional 1824 mention by Elder

Alexander Campbell is all that WILL EVER BE DISCOVERED.

 

If I were LDS, I'd try to take some comfort in that fact, as it at least

closes the door upon any embarrassing "surprises" coming to light

about Joseph and visions during those early years.

 

Did he claim to have seen and heard God the Father, in New York?

I suspect that he made such a claim, but I cannot prove it, and the

available evidence is inconclusive.

 

Did he claim to have experienced that theophany four years before

the Great Palmyra Revival of 1824 -- before Alvin's death -- before

Mother Smith and some of her children joined the Presbyterians?

 

My conclusion is "no."

 

But there are others here posting to this forum who conclude that I

must be wrong. I'd guess that you may think I'm right.>>

 

??? In my humble opinion, you are correct, because you have actual artifacts that historically are true...do you mind if I can use your answer , to verify that I've  talked to you? ...When I first opened /used your site? , I thought you were not in the flesh, I am glad that you are still alive and helping those who strive for the truth ( have you ever heard of Robert Bowman)

[mfbukowski]

I would take just learning how to use the quote function.

Oh yeah thanks a lot.

 

And then he comes up with being a veteran who fought for the good old USA and is a hard-working immigrant who has come to the promised land to get ahead.

 

That makes me less than a heel that has just walked through.....  well you get the idea. 

[TMESSENGER]

 Mr Dale, a final point here...you said...

<Did he claim to have seen and heard God the Father, in New York?

I suspect that he made such a claim, but I cannot prove it, and the

available evidence is inconclusive>...there is nothing in history in the mormon hierarchy or text, that J Smith ever use the words Father and Son specifically those two words. When J Smith claimed he told a minister that he had a vision? and was treated with contempt?...this raises a flag, because any minister or anyone for that matter would respond to J Smith,...what kind of vision?...but I am getting ahead, to what I really wanted to say...keep up the good work.. 

[Uncle Dale]

 

 

...do you mind if I can use your answer , to verify that I've  talked to you?

...have you ever heard of Robert Bowman...

 

 

.

You can paraphrase what I've said -- so long as you also give

the web-address of this thread (which you will see at the top of

your computer screen, in the "url window").

 

I recall having a Jehovah's Witnesses pamphlet written by a guy

with a name like that -- but can't recall at the moment whether

it was pro-JW or anti-JW.

 

If I remember correctly, a Mormon gave it to me, to prove that

"Jehovah" is the true and proper Hebrew pronunciation of YHWH;

but I may be wrong about that -- it was a long time ago.

 

UD

Query for the resident biblical Hebrew experts -- is the LDS

pronunciation the correct one? I think the RLDS quit using

"Jehovah" about the turn of the century (19th to 20th)

Edited March 2, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[TMESSENGER]

You can paraphrase what I've said -- so long as you also give

the web-address of this thread (which you will see at the top of

your computer screen, in the "url window."

 

I recall having a Jehovah's Witnesses pamphlet written by a guy

with a name like that -- but can't recall at the moment whether

it was pro-JW or anti-JW.

 

If I remember correctly, a Mormon gave it to me, to prove that

"Jehovah" is the true and proper Hebrew pronunciation of YHWH;

but I may be wrong about that -- it was a long time ago.

 

UD

Query for the resident biblical Hebrew experts -- is the LDS

pronunciation the correct one. I think the RLDS quit using

"Jehovah" about the turn of the century (19th to 20th)

 

 

Mr Dale consider it done. I will have an exact copy and believe me , this is a great honor to have talked to you...Robert Bowman is definitely a true Christian from a well known ministry to the LDS people and JW'S as well