The Problem With The First Vision Accounts

[TMESSENGER]

 

TMESSENGER here again  let me summarize items on my question

 

let me listed them again

[) Lectures on Faith, where they say that God the Father is a Spirit. Why would Joseph teach such a thing if the father had a tangible body?

(lecture # 5)

2) Book of Commandments lacked any first vision account.

3) JST changes did not “correct” Biblical claims otherwise.

4) Book of Mormon shows a monotheistic God who is a Spirit.

5) neither Book of Moses nor Book of Abraham state that God has a physical body, though they disagree on God vs Gods

Had Joseph seen a tangible God the Father and was severely persecuted for telling people that he had, why would he not teach it to the church from the very beginning? Surely the town bullies would have let word get out about Joseph’s claims. Why only share it with people who would persecute him? I’m not asking for proof that God exists here, I’m asking for evidence that Joseph Smith told his the story to the early saints in the school of the prophets or such? Surely some conference proceeding, some talks, some journal recording what conference was about, some letter, some news letter, some news paper article, some painted pot, something would record that Joseph was teaching that God had a physical body prior to the crafting of the official version of the first vision.]

Just read them again…and think of the impossibility of not finding any of this ton of evidence that would had to be available to anyone searching history, or just plain newspapers.

I have four books written between 1842 to 1867 (one of these books is an original copy. You can order a photo-print of this book for 20+ from amazon.from Pomeroy Tucker Origin and progress of mormonism 1867, a fellow contemporary of J Smith about the same age)and they all attack J Smith the new “prophet” and his claims of being a “true prophet” and his golden bible,

But none attacked him on the claims that he saw God and his Son, or even that J Smith saw two personages…why not? for the simple reason, it never happened (meaning J Smith said he told, but no evidence he told the truth)

You can google Dave’s uncle newspapers , this site collection of newspapers from 1816 to 1867? and check the newspapers in the Palmyra area…you will never find anything on J Smith claiming he saw two personages, or even that these characters were deities..

If you want to find the real God of the Bible , read The book of John in the Bible…a book inspired by the real Holy Spirit.

Again not a single corroboration, that J Smith… telling this story(TALL TALE ) In 18 years.(1820-1838)

 

[UtahTexan]

 

 

TMESSENGER here again  let me summarize items on my question

 

let me listed them again

[) Lectures on Faith, where they say that God the Father is a Spirit. Why would Joseph teach such a thing if the father had a tangible body?

(lecture # 5)

2) Book of Commandments lacked any first vision account.

3) JST changes did not “correct” Biblical claims otherwise.

4) Book of Mormon shows a monotheistic God who is a Spirit.

5) neither Book of Moses nor Book of Abraham state that God has a physical body, though they disagree on God vs Gods

Had Joseph seen a tangible God the Father and was severely persecuted for telling people that he had, why would he not teach it to the church from the very beginning? Surely the town bullies would have let word get out about Joseph’s claims. Why only share it with people who would persecute him? I’m not asking for proof that God exists here, I’m asking for evidence that Joseph Smith told his the story to the early saints in the school of the prophets or such? Surely some conference proceeding, some talks, some journal recording what conference was about, some letter, some news letter, some news paper article, some painted pot, something would record that Joseph was teaching that God had a physical body prior to the crafting of the official version of the first vision.]

Just read them again…and think of the impossibility of not finding any of this ton of evidence that would had to be available to anyone searching history, or just plain newspapers.

I have four books written between 1842 to 1867 (one of these books is an original copy. You can order a photo-print of this book for 20+ from amazon.from Pomeroy Tucker Origin and progress of mormonism 1867, a fellow contemporary of J Smith about the same age)and they all attack J Smith the new “prophet” and his claims of being a “true prophet” and his golden bible,

But none attacked him on the claims that he saw God and his Son, or even that J Smith saw two personages…why not? for the simple reason, it never happened (meaning J Smith said he told, but no evidence he told the truth)

You can google Dave’s uncle newspapers , this site collection of newspapers from 1816 to 1867? and check the newspapers in the Palmyra area…you will never find anything on J Smith claiming he saw two personages, or even that these characters were deities..

If you want to find the real God of the Bible , read The book of John in the Bible…a book inspired by the real Holy Spirit.

Again not a single corroboration, that J Smith… telling this story(TALL TALE ) In 18 years.(1820-1838)

 

 

 

So, let me get this straight.  Your question is exposed for what it is and, instead of responding to the points raised, you just repost the question....

 

So...you are not here to discuss...but to post "biting questions"?

[TMESSENGER]

Country boy...

 

<You start of with a conclusion and then build your question to support your conclusion.>

( I have been studying mormonism for over 25 years..).

 

<<You presuppose that Joseph told , or needed to tell, people other than his family.>>

[My presupposition is based on facts ( lds , scriptures as written from J Smith himself)]

 

<<<Others he might have told or DID tell, did  not believe him...>>>

( there is no evidence that J Smith TOLD, period, that is exactly the foundation of my point, he said he TOLD, but nothing to corroborate this "telling", that is why I called it a tall tale .)

 

<<<<So...your question starts from a bad conclusion and the perpetuates the conclusion.>>>>  ( this does not negate my question, where is the evidence that he TOld..

(And I repeat...it is inconceivable that you cannot find any corroboration in these 18 years.!)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[UtahTexan]

Country boy...

 

<You start of with a conclusion and then build your question to support your conclusion.>

( I have been studying mormonism for over 25 years..).

 

<<You presuppose that Joseph told , or needed to tell, people other than his family.>>

[My presupposition is based on facts ( lds , scriptures as written from J Smith himself)]

 

<<<Others he might have told or DID tell, did  not believe him...>>>

( there is no evidence that J Smith TOLD, period, that is exactly the foundation of my point, he said he TOLD, but nothing to corroborate this "telling", that is why I called it a tall tale .)

 

<<<<So...your question starts from a bad conclusion and the perpetuates the conclusion.>>>>  ( this does not negate my question, where is the evidence that he TOld..

(And I repeat...it is inconceivable that you cannot find any corroboration in these 18 years.!)

 

So, you have proven my point.

 

You start from a faulty position and build your questions to support it.

 

So...prove to me that people ALWAYS tell others about personal and private miracles.  Prove to me that everyone wo receives miracles trumpets it to everyone

[Calm]

You start of with a conclusion and then build your question to support your conclusion.

 

You presuppose that Joseph told , or needed to tell, people other than his family.

 

Others he might have told or DID tell, did  not believe him...

 

So...your question starts from a bad conclusion and the perpetuates the conclusion.

Saves me time, thank you.  

[Calm]

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith%27s_First_Vision/No_reference_to_First_Vision_in_1830s_publications

 

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2013-fair-conference/2013-joseph-smiths-visions-his-style-and-his-record

 

The one person he did tell, according to his record, was one of the local clergymen of the area, a man of the cloth whom he thought would understand and one whom he could trust. Instead, Joseph said that upon relating the experience he was rebuffed and ridiculed by the man he trusted: “he treated my communication not only lightly but with great contempt, saying it was all of the Devil.” 7 He evidently also shared his experience with a few other locals who, he said, heaped upon him “severe persecution.” 8 Naturally, after a while the teenaged Joseph learned his lesson. Thereafter, he was particularly careful about divulging what had happened to him, and when he did relate his experience, he had specific reasons for doing so. 9

 

[Pahoran]

I am new here, so here is my post...I am asking the following

Can you find me a close associate/family/newspaper/dairy/book/friend/foe/historian/newspaper/document, of J Smith , that would corroborate this “vision experience”, I call it a T T? Surely if he TOLD, there would be TONS of evidence that J Smith TOLD…it was a revival,…folks would flock to the site to see this site of this glorious event in the “sacred” grove…maybe even erect a monument there…

As you can see from J Smith account he TOLD this T T to everybody in town…(population about 600+in 1820) was bitterly persecuted…not a single time you will find the statement that he saw the “Father and Son” (nothing from 1820 to 1838, the reason I use 1838, is because Orson Pratt wrote a little pamphlet in 1838 entitled "Remarkable visions", the official Fist vision was the account of J Smith in 1842!, neither of these two accounts called or identify these two personages as the Father and the Son, deities

TMessenger,

Welcome to the board.

A few points:

• You want "corroboration" for an event to which Joseph was, by his own account, the only witness?  How?
• Oh, you want "corroboration" that he broadcast the story far and wide?  Except that he doesn't say that he did.  All he told his mother was that he had found out that Presbyterianism wasn't true.  He told a minister that he trusted something about the vision some time after that; but he doesn't say that he related the event in full.
• You mentioned that "neither of these two accounts called or identify these two personages as the Father and the Son, deities."  Right, and neither does the official published version.  But if you read it, it's pretty obvious who they were.
• You call Joseph's account a "T T," which you subsequently explain stands for "Tall Tale." I have learned, by long experience, that we all view the world through the lens of our own character. This means that, while honest people tend to assume that others are likewise honest, dishonest people tend to leap to the conclusion that anyone who tells them things that are unexpected according to their own experience, must ipso facto be lying. What's really happening there is that both groups are putting themselves in the position of the one telling the story.
• Thus, when you assume that Joseph was lying, you tell us a whole lot more about your own character than you do about his.

Joseph said he told this T T  for three years…well I will extend the frame time?….. my question to you, can you provide me with any corroboration statement from a close associate/family/newspaper/dairy/book/friend/foe/historian/newspaper/document, of J Smith …… any thing to confirmed J Smith TOLD. Anything from 1820 TO 1838 time frame

If you cannot find any evidence/documentation, of this T T, J Smith made it all up….mormon people have been had big time…

What a truly idiotic argument. If that argument was any thicker, it would have set by now.

A number of years ago, Hugh W. Nibley (who, unlike yourself was (1) an actual scholar, who (2) knew a lot about Mormon things, and (3) understood how evidence works) wrote an essay called "Censoring the Joseph Smith Story." In it, he demonstrated that the Church's enemies and critics have almost never been willing to tell the story of the First Vision with any attempt at accuray or completeness. This practice was not confined to Joseph's lifetime, but has continued ever since. If we follow your argument to its logical conclusion, we'd have to conclude that Joseph never told the story of the First Vision, either in 1820 or in any other year.

But since we know that conclusion to be false, it follows that the argument is wrong.

Time to discard it, I think.

 

And I agree with you “seer” You are involved in a great SHAM...

Hinckley said

If the First Vision was true, if it actually happened, then the Book of Mormon is true. Then we have the priesthood. Then we have the Church organization and all of the other keys and blessings of authority which we say we have. If the First Vision did not occur, then we are involved in a great sham. It is that simple. (Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley, p.227)

Here's a gentle hint, TMessenger: if you're just here to be a sneering bigot, I recommend you don't bother.

We have a great deal of respect and regard for President Hinckley. He established the depth of his sincerity and conviction over the course of a long life. You? Not so much.

So I suggest you go and wipe your nose, because you've been nothing but snotty from your very first post.

 

Hint: You could look at J Smith mother biography of J Smith surely she must of have mentioned something…or the history written by Oliver in 1834…or his brother William, He was an “apostle” he gave four interviews in his life time up until 1876? he died in 1893?

If J Smith TOLD, it is inconceivable that you cannot find any corroboration in these 18 years.!

Thank you for illustrating my point. Is it really credible that William Smith never heard of the First Vision in all his life?

Are you really that preternaturally obtuse?

Regards,

Pahoran

Edited February 28, 2015 by Pahoran

[omni]

So, you have proven my point.

You start from a faulty position and build your questions to support it.

So...prove to me that people ALWAYS tell others about personal and private miracles. Prove to me that everyone wo receives miracles trumpets it to everyone

I think he/she was trying to show this with the quoted portion of the JS History. It's difficult to believe Joseph received the persecution he claims without any contemporary acknowledgement of the FV. We have pre-1832 records of his visits with the angel Moroni, so it would seem odd that we wouldn't for the FV.

[Uncle Dale]

The best evidence for our concluding that Joseph
told somebody about his purported theophany can
be found in the pages of the Palmyra Reflector
(February 14, 1831). However, no details are given

and the editor (who owned property across Stafford

road, from the Smiths) may have heard a vague rumor

to this effect (and thus was comfortable relaying a

report on the same topic, sent to him from Ohio).

 

Still, it is quite reasonable to conclude that young
Joe did not repeat the later (Times & Seasons text)
account until long after the Reflector passed on its
very, very short mention.

I'm inclined to think that Smith DID tell a small
number of people about his theophany in
Manchester (or wherever) but instructed them
to keep it a secret. Thus, the god-with-a-body
account was not the typical memory of a John
Taylor, or a Brigham Young, or a William Smith,
or even Joseph's mother, for many, many years.

Orson Pratt seems to have known of the theophany
early on, and seems to have been one of its chief
communicators. It's possible to dig out old Deseret
News issues, in which Brigham talks of angelic
visitations, as Mormonism's beginning, while
Pratt is recounting the Times & Seasons version.

Sounds odd, but something along those lines must
have been what happened, in suppressing the
theophany, even in Smith's own published talks
on a plurality of gods, progression, etc.

UD

Edited March 1, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[TMESSENGER]

I will try to answer to all comments to my questio...especially those who go on name calling

 

<<TMessenger,

Welcome to the board.

A few points:

• <You want "corroboration" for an event to which Joseph was, by his own account, the only witness?>  How? ( Well, if you can not find no one that corroborate this "event" than the "vision" is not credible, Joseph made it up, that is why I called it a tall tale..) 
• Oh, you want "corroboration" that he broadcast the story far and wide?  Except that he doesn't say that he did.  All he told his mother was that he had found out that Presbyterianism wasn't true.  He told a minister that he trusted something about the vision some time after that; but he doesn't say that he related the event in full.> Please read the documentation I provided by J Smith himself canonized by the mormon church ..( For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.
   
  (Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:22 - 25)
• You mentioned that "neither of these two accounts called or identify these two personages as the Father and the Son, deities."  Right, and neither does the official published version.  But if you read it, it's pretty obvious who they were.>> So you proved my point again, no where in history of the mormon church is an account J Smith saw the Father and Son...it could have been mormon and his son moroni
• You call Joseph's account a "T T," which you subsequently explain stands for "Tall Tale." I have learned, by long experience, that we all view the world through the lens of our own character. This means that, while honest people tend to assume that others are likewise honest, dishonest people tend to leap to the conclusion that anyone who tells them things that are unexpected according to their own experience, must ipso facto be lying. What's really happening there is that both groups are putting themselves in the position of the one telling the story. >> If it is an alleged vision, and if no one can corroborate this "vision" was told, even though J Smith said he told..., than it is a tall tale.
• Thus, when you assume that Joseph was lying, you tell us a whole lot more about your own character than you do about his.>> You can prove me wrong, by just giving me one item that corroborates this alledge vision, forget whether this vision was true or not, just one corroboration statement that he told this alledge experience...just one!

[UtahTexan]

 

I will try to answer to all comments to my questio...especially those who go on name calling

 

<<TMessenger,

Welcome to the board.

A few points:

• <You want "corroboration" for an event to which Joseph was, by his own account, the only witness?>  How? ( Well, if you can not find no one that corroborate this "event" than the "vision" is not credible, Joseph made it up, that is why I called it a tall tale..) 
• Oh, you want "corroboration" that he broadcast the story far and wide?  Except that he doesn't say that he did.  All he told his mother was that he had found out that Presbyterianism wasn't true.  He told a minister that he trusted something about the vision some time after that; but he doesn't say that he related the event in full.> Please read the documentation I provided by J Smith himself canonized by the mormon church ..( For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.

   

  (Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:22 - 25)

• You mentioned that "neither of these two accounts called or identify these two personages as the Father and the Son, deities."  Right, and neither does the official published version.  But if you read it, it's pretty obvious who they were.>> So you proved my point again, no where in history of the mormon church is an account J Smith saw the Father and Son...it could have been mormon and his son moroni
• You call Joseph's account a "T T," which you subsequently explain stands for "Tall Tale." I have learned, by long experience, that we all view the world through the lens of our own character. This means that, while honest people tend to assume that others are likewise honest, dishonest people tend to leap to the conclusion that anyone who tells them things that are unexpected according to their own experience, must ipso facto be lying. What's really happening there is that both groups are putting themselves in the position of the one telling the story. >> If it is an alleged vision, and if no one can corroborate this "vision" was told, even though J Smith said he told..., than it is a tall tale.
• Thus, when you assume that Joseph was lying, you tell us a whole lot more about your own character than you do about his.>> You can prove me wrong, by just giving me one item that corroborates this alledge vision, forget whether this vision was true or not, just one corroboration statement that he told this alledge experience...just one!

 

Seriously?

 

Look, I am sure you are a nice person...but your jumps to conclusions make you look ill-prepared and desperate.

 

Look....me give you an example.

 

And remember, I am not LDS.  I used to be...but left the LDS Church in 1990.

 

Now, in 1983, I was sitting at my parent's home alone in my old bedroom.  As I was cleaning up, a book fell off the shelf.  I leaned down to pick it up and saw it was a Book of Mormon.  Apparently, my mother had visited SLC and was given one.  Anyway, it opened up to 3rd Nephi.  I sat down and read it.   I determined after reading it, that I needed to contact the LDS Church.  I did and was soon baptized.

 

Now...no one was at my home when this happened.  By your theories, it never happened.

 

I asked you earlier to provide documentation that supports your contention that everyone reports all Spiritual experiences.

 

You have not done so

[TMESSENGER]

Joseph said he told this T T  for three years…well I will extend the frame time?….. my question to you, can you provide me with any corroboration statement from a close associate/family/newspaper/dairy/book/friend/foe/historian/newspaper/document, of J Smith …… any thing to confirmed J Smith TOLD. Anything from 1820 TO 1838 time frame

If you cannot find any evidence/documentation, of this T T, J Smith made it all up….mormon people have been had big time…

 

What a truly idiotic argument. If that argument was any thicker, it would have set by now.>> What a sorry way to answer a very important subject...

<A number of years ago, Hugh W. Nibley (who, unlike yourself was (1) an actual scholar, who (2) knew a lot about Mormon things, and (3) understood how evidence works) wrote an essay called "Censoring the Joseph Smith Story." In it, he demonstrated that the Church's enemies and critics have almost never been willing to tell the story of the First Vision with any attempt at accuray or completeness. This practice was not confined to Joseph's lifetime, but has continued ever since. If we follow your argument to its logical conclusion, we'd have to conclude that Joseph never told the story of the First Vision, either in 1820 or in any other year.>> Exactly...nothing in history from 1820 1838...as a matter of fact, J Smith did not have to say anything...you would find tons of evidence of this alledge persecution that he suffered because he TOLD...I told you I have four books , including one of Joseph Smith  brother , William Smith book, and none of them mentioned or attack Joseph on this alledge vision, for the simpler reason, Joseph did not tell the truth...one of these books is about the birth of mormonism, "origin , rise, and progress of mormonism, by Pomeroy Tucker ...you can get a copy of this book in Amazon, for ten dollars....I paid 350 dollars for this first edition, ..

But since we know that conclusion to be false, it follows that the argument is wrong>> You know the conclusion to be false???...are you smoking something?....

Time to discard it, I think.>> Again just give me   any corroboration statement from a close associate/family/newspaper/dairy/book/friend/foe/historian/newspaper/document, of J Smith …… any thing to confirmed J Smith TOLD. Anything from 1820 TO 1838 time frame

If you cannot find any evidence/documentation, of this T T, J Smith made it all up….mormon people have been had big time…

[UtahTexan]

So...still afraid to address my points?

 

Why is that?

[TMESSENGER]

 Countryboy,...

 

<<Seriously?

 

Look, I am sure you are a nice person...but your jumps to conclusions make you look ill-prepared and desperate.

 

Look....me give you an example.

 

And remember, I am not LDS.  I used to be...but left the LDS Church in 1990.

 

Now, in 1983, I was sitting at my parent's home alone in my old bedroom.  As I was cleaning up, a book fell off the shelf.  I leaned down to pick it up and saw it was a Book of Mormon.  Apparently, my mother had visited SLC and was given one.  Anyway, it opened up to 3rd Nephi.  I sat down and read it.   I determined after reading it, that I needed to contact the LDS Church.  I did and was soon baptized.

 

Now...no one was at my home when this happened.  By your theories, it never happened.>> Sorry cowboy, you do not comprehend what you read correctly, if you have read my question and my logical arguments..., I do not implied what you wrongly assert...if you told this experience to everybody years later how you found this bom,..  told to  your household and  every one in town, and later on some reporter wanted to document your story, because let us say , you are publishing a book? and this reporter goes to your home town, talks to you family and those who knew you...and no one corroborates what you alleged took place about this experience??...then you are no different than J Smith...you  are telling a tall tale...check mate!

 

I asked you earlier to provide documentation that supports your contention that everyone reports all Spiritual experiences>> all spiritual experiences ??...no...I just want to prove to you and the world that J Smith "story" does not have credibility...because there is no evidence of what allegedly took place in his home town....no one knows that is all...

 

You have not done so>>  Yes I have , prove me wrong and find me just one item statement that affirms J Smith told this "story".very simple question to verify...if it actually happened,  that J Smith told....forget whether the story/vision was true or not...just that J Smith told......

[UtahTexan]

 

 Countryboy,...

 

<<Seriously?

 

Look, I am sure you are a nice person...but your jumps to conclusions make you look ill-prepared and desperate.

 

Look....me give you an example.

 

And remember, I am not LDS.  I used to be...but left the LDS Church in 1990.

 

Now, in 1983, I was sitting at my parent's home alone in my old bedroom.  As I was cleaning up, a book fell off the shelf.  I leaned down to pick it up and saw it was a Book of Mormon.  Apparently, my mother had visited SLC and was given one.  Anyway, it opened up to 3rd Nephi.  I sat down and read it.   I determined after reading it, that I needed to contact the LDS Church.  I did and was soon baptized.

 

Now...no one was at my home when this happened.  By your theories, it never happened.>> Sorry cowboy, you do not comprehend what you read correctly, if you have read my question and my logical arguments..., I do not implied what you wrongly assert...if you told this experience to everybody years later how you found this bom,..  told to  your household and  every one in town, and later on some reporter wanted to document your story, because let us say , you are publishing a book? and this reporter goes to your home town, talks to you family and those who knew you...and no one corroborates what you alleged took place about this experience??...then you are no different than J Smith...you  are telling a tall tale...check mate!

 

Wrong.  Again, you make very faulty assumptions.  See...you said you have been studying LDS for 25 years.  I checked all newspapers...nothing.  So...you lied.  CHECK MATE

 

I asked you earlier to provide documentation that supports your contention that everyone reports all Spiritual experiences>> all spiritual experiences ??...no...I just want to prove to you and the world that J Smith "story" does not have credibility...because there is no evidence of what allegedly took place in his home town....no one knows that is all...

 

And you failed miserably.  All you proved is that Joseph did not go around bragging and telling everyone.  So....in fact, you proved it DID happen...and was not used for personal gain.  CHECK MATE

 

 

 

[TMESSENGER]

Now...no one was at my home when this happened.  By your theories, it never happened.>> Sorry cowboy, you do not comprehend what you read correctly, if you have read my question and my logical arguments..., I do not implied what you wrongly assert...if you told this experience to everybody years later how you found this bom,..  told to  your household and  every one in town, and later on some reporter wanted to document your story, because let us say , you are publishing a book? and this reporter goes to your home town, talks to you family and those who knew you...and no one corroborates what you alleged took place about this experience??...then you are no different than J Smith...you  are telling a tall tale...check mate!

 

<<Wrong.  Again, you make very faulty assumptions.  See...you said you have been studying LDS for 25 years.  I checked all newspapers...nothing.  So...you lied.  CHECK MATE>> What are you talking about...what newspapers you said you checked? 

 

I asked you earlier to provide documentation that supports your contention that everyone reports all Spiritual experiences>> all spiritual experiences ??...no...I just want to prove to you and the world that J Smith "story" does not have credibility...because there is no evidence of what allegedly took place in his home town....no one knows that is all...

 

And you failed miserably.  All you proved is that Joseph did not go around bragging and telling everyone. >>  Man are you confused or what...Joseph said he TOLD!  and I gave you the documentation he "said he told, was bitterly persecuted,"..( '...( For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.

 
 

(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:22 - 25)...

 

.< but I  So....in fact, you proved it DID happen.>> no, no,   you do not  understand, you been riding too many horses, it has affected your brain...the whole point of my question, is that Joseph did not tell the truth...he said he told everyone in town, but there is nothing to substantiate, he told!..    

 

 and was not used for personal gain.>>stop horsing around and give  one item that corroborates this alledge vision, forget whether this vision was true or not, just one corroboration statement that he told this alledge experience...just one! 

[UtahTexan]

 

Now...no one was at my home when this happened.  By your theories, it never happened.>> Sorry cowboy, you do not comprehend what you read correctly, if you have read my question and my logical arguments..., I do not implied what you wrongly assert...if you told this experience to everybody years later how you found this bom,..  told to  your household and  every one in town, and later on some reporter wanted to document your story, because let us say , you are publishing a book? and this reporter goes to your home town, talks to you family and those who knew you...and no one corroborates what you alleged took place about this experience??...then you are no different than J Smith...you  are telling a tall tale...check mate!

 

<<Wrong.  Again, you make very faulty assumptions.  See...you said you have been studying LDS for 25 years.  I checked all newspapers...nothing.  So...you lied.  CHECK MATE>> What are you talking about...what newspapers you said you checked? 

 

All of them....saw NO evidence that you studied anything.  So..you lied.  CHECKMATE

 

I asked you earlier to provide documentation that supports your contention that everyone reports all Spiritual experiences>> all spiritual experiences ??...no...I just want to prove to you and the world that J Smith "story" does not have credibility...because there is no evidence of what allegedly took place in his home town....no one knows that is all...

 

You must prove that it did not happen....you must prove that just because he did not tell people, it did not happen.   PROVE IT!  You can't.  CHECKMATE

 

And you failed miserably.  All you proved is that Joseph did not go around bragging and telling everyone. >>  Man are you confused or what...Joseph said he TOLD!  and I gave you the documentation he "said he told, was bitterly persecuted,"..( '...( For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.

 

 

(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:22 - 25)...

 

.< but I  So....in fact, you proved it DID happen.>> no, no,   you do not  understand, you been riding too many horses, it has affected your brain...the whole point of my question, is that Joseph did not tell the truth...he said he told everyone in town, but there is nothing to substantiate, he told!..    

 

 and was not used for personal gain.>>stop horsing around and give  one item that corroborates this alledge vision, forget whether this vision was true or not, just one corroboration statement that he told this alledge experience...just one! 

 

Not horsing around.   I am just making you look silly.  Now....I have asled you to prove that not telling someone about an eent means it did not happen.  You have failed.  CHECKMATE

 

[TMESSENGER]

Uncle Dale, you said 

 

The best evidence for our concluding that Joseph
told somebody about his purported theophany can
be found in the pages of the Palmyra Reflector
(February 14, 1831). However, no details are given

and the editor (who owned property across Stafford

road, from the Smiths) may have heard a vague rumor

to this effect (and thus was comfortable relaying a

report on the same topic, sent to him from Ohio).>> my question to you sir, since we can not really read this small letter of the reflector? why don't you pick the quote where the reflector published the phase..".I saw the father, or the father and son appeared etc words to that effect," just reproduce this theophany  quote for us?...go ahead we are all ears...

 

[UtahTexan]

Uncle Dale, you said 

 

The best evidence for our concluding that Joseph

told somebody about his purported theophany can

be found in the pages of the Palmyra Reflector

(February 14, 1831). However, no details are given

and the editor (who owned property across Stafford

road, from the Smiths) may have heard a vague rumor

to this effect (and thus was comfortable relaying a

report on the same topic, sent to him from Ohio).>> my question to you sir, since we can not really read this small letter of the reflector? why don't you pick the quote where the reflector published the phase..".I saw the father, or the father and son appeared etc words to that effect," just reproduce this theophany  quote for us?...go ahead we are all ears...

 

 

 

no...actually YOU are all ears.....sadly, I wish you were also brain  

 

I am waiting for you to prove that not talking about an even means it never happened.

 

What can't you prove that?

[TMESSENGER]

Cowboy, 

 

 

<<You must prove that it did not happen....you must prove that just because he did not tell people, it did not happen.   PROVE IT!  You can't.  CHECKMATE>>  When J Smith came into the scene with his tall tale, the Christian Church the Ekklesia was already established, so the burden of proof is on the mormon church and cowboys like you, to produce the evidence...Years later 22 years Joseph writes this tall tale and so the burden of proof is on you ...

 

Not horsing around.   I am just making you look silly.  Now....I have asled you to prove that not telling someone about an eent means it did not happen.  You have faile>>Listen , when you have sober up, I will continue to asked you again...you not only comprehend not reading,  you also have a problem writing a coherent sentence..

[Uncle Dale]

no...actually YOU are all ears.....sadly, I wish you were also brain  

 

I am waiting for you to prove that not talking about an even means it never happened.

 

What can't you prove that?

.

 

Of course my full transcript of the "Reflector" editor's comments

are easily available for reading on-line, for anybody who may be

interested in consulting them.

 

I suppose that enough of the participants in this forum know

about my sites, my general viewpoint, and my readiness to

seriously discuss serious issues, that there is no need to cite

anybody's ears, eyes, or other overheated body parts.

 

Mr. (Ms?) TMessenger must have just stopped by this neck

of the woods for the first time.

 

Oh well...

 

UD

[UtahTexan]

Cowboy, 

 

 

<<You must prove that it did not happen....you must prove that just because he did not tell people, it did not happen.   PROVE IT!  You can't.  CHECKMATE>>  When J Smith came into the scene with his tall tale, the Christian Church the Ekklesia was already established, so the burden of proof is on the mormon church and cowboys like you, to produce the evidence...Years later 22 years Joseph writes this tall tale and so the burden of proof is on you ...

 

Nope.....YOU have made the contentions and proclamations.  So it is up to YOU to prove.  And...I keep make making points you run away from and I ask questions you are too afraid to answer

 

Not horsing around.   I am just making you look silly.  Now....I have asled you to prove that not telling someone about an eent means it did not happen.  You have faile>>Listen , when you have sober up, I will continue to asked you again...you not only comprehend not reading,  you also have a problem writing a coherent sentence..

 

I will admit...I am not the best typist.....however, when YOU type coherently, we can talk.  for example, you wrote "when you have sober up"  You should have written "sobered".  I suggest you stop criticizing and mocking until you can remove the mote.......etc.  In the mean time, you keep dodging my questions.....CHECKMATE

[Calm]

Countryboy, you are kindness itself to take this one on.

[TMESSENGER]

<<Of course my full transcript of the "Reflector" editor's comments

are easily available for reading on-line, for anybody who may be

interested in consulting them.

 

I suppose that enough of the participants in this forum know

about my sites, my general viewpoint, and my readiness to

seriously discuss serious issues, that there is no need to cite

anybody's ears, eyes, or other overheated body parts.

 

Mr. (Ms?) TMessenger must have just stopped by this neck

of the woods for the first time.>>

Mr Dale, I have this reflector copy of your site, I have used it many times. Now, let me asked you again, where in this "reflector" copy, is the lines, that specifically states that J Smith saw the Father and son? or that the Father and son appeared to him?,  ...I searched all your newspapers and have not found anyone claiming Smith saw the Father and Son, or anyone else for that matter...and I am Mr , and thank you

 

Oh well...

[TMESSENGER]

Cowboy, 

 

 

<<You must prove that it did not happen....you must prove that just because he did not tell people, it did not happen.   PROVE IT!  You can't.  CHECKMATE>>  When J Smith came into the scene with his tall tale, the Christian Church the Ekklesia was already established, so the burden of proof is on the mormon church and cowboys like you, to produce the evidence...Years later 22 years Joseph writes this tall tale and so the burden of proof is on you ...

 

<<Nope.....YOU have made the contentions and proclamations.  So it is up to YOU to prove.  And...I keep make making points you run away from and I ask questions you are too afraid to answer>> sorry, I have asked you to produce a document that corroborates what J Smith said, mainly that he told this story to a town of 600+  people in Palmyra in 1820 , this J Smith claims that he had a vision, he claims he told, all I want you to produce, is the evidence, that he told this experience, and I told you, forget J Smith claiming he told, just go to history in Palmyra and if J Smith   told this story and claimed he saw a vision (father son bit) than , there should be plenty , tons of evidence for this event, so I am asking the question, I need not to prove anything, you and this "prophet" are making the claim, and if he told, it should be very easy for anyone to find the evidence

 

Not horsing around.   I am just making you look silly.  Now....I have asled you to prove that not telling someone about an eent means it did not happen.  You have faile>>Listen , when you have sober up, I will continue to asked you again...you not only comprehend not reading,  you also have a problem writing a coherent sentence..

 

<<I will admit...I am not the best typist.....however, when YOU type coherently, we can talk.  for example, you wrote "when you have sober up"  You should have written "sobered".  I suggest you stop criticizing and mocking until you can remove the mote.......etc.  In the mean time, you keep dodging my questions.....CHECKMATE>> I could claim the same argument, about typing, ...I have answered all your questions line by line, you have not...again show me the evidence, that is all.. 

stay on the subject and answer my question...where is the evidence???