The Problem With The First Vision Accounts

[strappinglad]

I can see Country Boy's reluctance to just accept a story without further evidence. He says he felt deceived/ misled

by teachings in the past and the " once bit twice shy " syndrome has set in. It does take more of an abundant amount of evidence to overcome that feeling. I am heartened by his ability to be patient with US as we battle to understand one another in written form only.

The Book of Mormon is an unusual book in that one cannot say that ,for example, 1 Nephi is a true record but there are text critical problems with Alma and hence that book was not truly scripture. It's sort of all or nothing. If Zarahemla was ever to be authenticated the entire story would have to be accepted. But, you still have a lot of people, some on this board, who believe the BoM true and yet want little to do with the current LDS Church and its claim of sole authority to the ordinations etc. You would be back to FAITH dadgumit.

Edited February 26, 2015 by strappinglad

[mfbukowski]

There is no evidence that Santa lives at the North Pole, so I do not believe that the idea that people should give selflessly is true.

On the other hand because Mother Theresa lived in India, the principle IS TRUE.

Huh?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Yes...I know who wrote it.

 

By several sources.  

 

Hence, I believe it happened.

 

Further, I have been to where it was written 

 

Which adds to the credibility

Here is the thing, suppose you learned that Jesus didn't write it but a guy named Mark did. Should you abandon the truth you learned because the story actually didn't happen the way you thought?

[UtahTexan]

I can see Country Boy's reluctance to just accept a story without further evidence. He says he felt deceived/ misled

by teachings in the past and the " once bit twice shy " syndrome has set in. It does take more of an abundant amount of evidence to overcome that feeling. I am heartened by his ability to be patient with US as we battle to understand one another in written form only.

The Book of Mormon is an unusual book in that one cannot say that ,for example, 1 Nephi is a true record but there are text critical problems with Alma and hence that book was not truly scripture. It's sort of all or nothing. If Zarahemla was ever to be authenticated the entire story would have to be accepted. But, you still have a lot of people, some on this board, who believe the BoM true and yet want little to do with the current LDS Church and its claim of sole authority to the ordinations etc. You would be back to FAITH dadgumit.

 

Thank you.

 

I am feeling more and more accepted here....and it feels good

[mfbukowski]

Yes...I know who wrote it.

 

By several sources.  

 

Hence, I believe it happened.

 

Further, I have been to where it was written 

 

Which adds to the credibility

So all those who accept similar forms of government have been there too, or they would not believe it was a good idea?

[UtahTexan]

Here is the thing, suppose you learned that Jesus didn't write it but a guy named Mark did. Should you abandon the truth you learned because the story actually didn't happen the way you thought?

 

Apples and oranges.

 

Let me give an example.

 

I have discovered that Joseph did not translate the plates the way I was taught in 1983.  I do not care.  If the plates existed, I do not care HOW they were translated.....

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Apples and oranges.

 

Let me give an example.

 

I have discovered that Joseph did not translate the plates the way I was taught in 1983.  I do not care.  If the plates existed, I do not care HOW they were translated.....

I really am trying to follow you, I just don't understand how this relates to what I just said. For the most part I agree with what you wrote though. Maybe you are agreeing with me?

[UtahTexan]

I really am trying to follow you, I just don't understand how this relates to what I just said. For the most part I agree with what you wrote though. Maybe you are agreeing with me?

 

Heck...I am so confused now I might me....lol

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Heck...I am so confused now I might me....lol

It is quite OK, to take a break and digest it all. It is some really heavy stuff we covered and it takes time to get it all.

[mfbukowski]

Apples and oranges.

 

Let me give an example.

 

I have discovered that Joseph did not translate the plates the way I was taught in 1983.  I do not care.  If the plates existed, I do not care HOW they were translated.....

But you can never know that the plates existed, because that is part of the test, therefore........    What?

[mfbukowski]

It is quite OK, to take a break and digest it all. It is some really heavy stuff we covered and it takes time to get it all.

We are getting somewhere.

The key is understanding it is all semantics anyway. Once we get there we will all know that all that matters is what you know in your heart, and we will all be fideists.http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fideism

[Uncle Dale]

But you can never know that the plates existed, because that is part of the test, therefore........ What?

What would it take, for us to know such a thing

beyond a reasonable doubt.

Even if we could somehow invent a time machine

and travel back to the Manchester, New York of

September 19th, 1827, and spy upon young Joe,

that would do us no good.

We see him, late at night, out in his dad's cooper's

shed, pounding a copper tea kettle flat and using

metal shears to cut out a few plates. So what?

Even rubbed shiny and yellowish with brass polish;

even carefully etched with characters taken from the

Royal Arch cypher and a Chinese tea box, how on

earth can we be certain that our lying eyes are not

deceiving us? Maybe it's all misfirings of our neural

synapses -- or worse yet, a demonic hallucination.

No -- not even comfortably ensconced in the highest

degree of the CK, amiably chatting with St. Peter

himself -- Can we ever know for certain.

Telegram for Neo -- Zion is in grave danger, -- maybe.

UD

Edited February 27, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[omni]

So anyways, how 'bout that First Vision...

[mfbukowski]

What would it take, for us to know such a thing

beyond a reasonable doubt.

Even if we could somehow invent a time machine

and travel back to the Manchester, New York of

September 19th, 1827, and spy upon young Joe,

that would do us no good.

We see him, late at night, out in his dad's cooper's

shed, pounding a copper tea kettle flat and using

metal shears to cut out a few plates. So what?

Even rubbed shiny and yellowish with brass polish;

even carefully etched with characters taken from the

Royal Arch cypher and a Chinese tea box, how on

earth can we be certain that our lying eyes are not

deceiving us? Maybe it's all misfirings of our neural

synapses -- or worse yet, a demonic hallucination.

No -- not even comfortably ensconced in the highest

degree of the CK, amiably chatting with St. Peter

himself -- Can we ever know for certain.

Telegram for Neo -- Zion is in grave danger, -- maybe.

UD

Beyond a reasonable doubt??

 

Fergitabout it dude.  This is faith we's talkin about.   I kinda think that was mentioned earlier, maybe.

 

Sigh.

[mfbukowski]

So anyways, how 'bout that First Vision...

A monument to the uselessness of this activity.

 

Thanks for the reminder

[UtahTexan]

I do not think this has been useless at all.  This has been wonderful.

[Uncle Dale]

Beyond a reasonable doubt??

 

Fergitabout it dude.  This is faith we's talkin about.   I kinda think that was mentioned earlier, maybe.

 

Sigh.

As I once said before, I have full faith that

my late parents loved me, deeply.

But, if somebody could forge documents and

produce a dozen aged witnesses, swearing upon

the bible in criminal court that my mother and

father were raising me with the secret plan to

offer me up as a tortured human sacrifice to

Lord Moloch, might not my faith waver?

Then again, there are those who will go to the

grave with unshakeable faith in Master Xenu,

and who are we, to call them deluded cultists?

UD

[mfbukowski]

I do not think this has been useless at all.  This has been wonderful.

Ok then good.

[TMESSENGER]

• I am new here, so here is my post...I am asking the following

  Can you find me a close associate/family/newspaper/dairy/book/friend/foe/historian/newspaper/document, of J Smith , that would corroborate this “vision experience”, I call it a T T? Surely if he TOLD, there would be TONS of evidence that J Smith TOLD…it was a revival,…folks would flock to the site to see this site of this glorious event in the “sacred” grove…maybe even erect a monument there…

  As you can see from J Smith account he TOLD this T T to everybody in town…(population about 600+in 1820) was bitterly persecuted…not a single time you will find the statement that he saw the “Father and Son” (nothing from 1820 to 1838, the reason I use 1838, is because Orson Pratt wrote a little pamphlet in 1838 entitled "Remarkable visions", the official Fist vision was the account of J Smith in 1842!, neither of these two accounts called or identify these two personages as the Father and the Son, deities

   
•  

  Joseph said he told this T T  for three years…well I will extend the frame time?….. my question to you, can you provide me with any corroboration statement from a close associate/family/newspaper/dairy/book/friend/foe/historian/newspaper/document, of J Smith …… any thing to confirmed J Smith TOLD. Anything from 1820 TO 1838 time frame

  If you cannot find any evidence/documentation, of this  T T, J Smith made it all up….mormon people have been had big time…

  And I agree with you “seer” You are involved in a great SHAM...

  Hinckley said

  If the First Vision was true, if it actually happened, then the Book of Mormon is true. Then we have the priesthood. Then we have the Church organization and all of the other keys and blessings of authority which we say we have. If the First Vision did not occur, then we are involved in a great sham. It is that simple. (Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley, p.227)

  Hint: You could look at J Smith mother biography of J Smith surely she must of have mentioned something…or the history written by Oliver in 1834…or his brother William, He was an “apostle” he gave four interviews in his life time up until 1876? he died in 1893?

  If J Smith TOLD, it is inconceivable that you cannot find any corroboration in these 18 years.!

[Calm]

Please in future posts, don't have your font in bold.  Makes it harder to read.

 

You will be able to edit at 25 posts, so I am not asking you to change it now.

 

Why "T T"?  What does that stand for?

Edited February 28, 2015 by calmoriah

[Calm]

As you can see from J Smith account he TOLD this T T to everybody in town

 

CFR please (means 'call for reference"), you need to demonstrate that JS stated he told about his vision to everyone in town.

Edited February 28, 2015 by calmoriah

[mfbukowski]

Bless you, Cal.

[TMESSENGER]

CFR please (means 'call for reference"), you need to demonstrate that JS stated he told about his vision to everyone in town.

sorry, about the bold, will try to change the computer settings next time, as for T T it means "tall tale"   and here is the documentation on J Smith telling...     

 

 

Smith writes

 I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause of great persecution, which continued to increase; and though I was an obscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age, and my circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world, yet men of high standing would take notice sufficient to excite the public mind against me, and create a bitter persecution; and this was common among all the sects—all united to persecute me.

23 It caused me serious reflection then, and often has since, how very strange it was that an obscure boy, of a little over fourteen years of age, and one, too, who was doomed to the necessity of obtaining a scanty maintenance by his daily labor, should be thought a character of sufficient importance to attract the attention of the great ones of the most popular sects of the day, and in a manner to create in them a spirit of the most bitter persecution and reviling.  But strange or not, so it was, and it was often the cause of great sorrow to myself.

24 However, it was nevertheless a fact that I had beheld a vision.  I have thought since, that I felt much like Paul, when he made his defense before King Agrippa, and related the account of the vision he had when he saw a light, and heard a voice; but still there were but few who believed him; some said he was dishonest, others said he was mad; and he was ridiculed and reviled.  But all this did not destroy the reality of his vision.  He had seen a vision, he knew he had, and all the persecution under heaven could not make it otherwise; and though they should persecute him unto death, yet he knew, and would know to his latest breath, that he had both seen a light and heard a voice speaking unto him, and all the world could not make him think or believe otherwise.

25 So it was with me.  I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages, and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth?  I have actually seen a vision; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen?  For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.

 

(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:22 - 25)

 

[TMESSENGER]

TMESSENGER here again  let me summarize items on my question

 

let me listed them again
[) Lectures on Faith, where they say that God the Father is a Spirit. Why would Joseph teach such a thing if the father had a tangible body?

(lecture # 5)

2) Book of Commandments lacked any first vision account.
3) JST changes did not “correct” Biblical claims otherwise.
4) Book of Mormon shows a monotheistic God who is a Spirit.
5) neither Book of Moses nor Book of Abraham state that God has a physical body, though they disagree on God vs Gods
Had Joseph seen a tangible God the Father and was severely persecuted for telling people that he had, why would he not teach it to the church from the very beginning? Surely the town bullies would have let word get out about Joseph’s claims. Why only share it with people who would persecute him? I’m not asking for proof that God exists here, I’m asking for evidence that Joseph Smith told his the story to the early saints in the school of the prophets or such? Surely some conference proceeding, some talks, some journal recording what conference was about, some letter, some news letter, some news paper article, some painted pot, something would record that Joseph was teaching that God had a physical body prior to the crafting of the official version of the first vision.]
Just read them again…and think of the impossibility of not finding any of this ton of evidence that would had to be available to anyone searching history, or just plain newspapers.
I have four books written between 1842 to 1867 (one of these books is an original copy. You can order a photo-print of this book for 20+ from amazon.from Pomeroy Tucker Origin and progress of mormonism 1867, a fellow contemporary of J Smith about the same age)and they all attack J Smith the new “prophet” and his claims of being a “true prophet” and his golden bible,
But none attacked him on the claims that he saw God and his Son, or even that J Smith saw two personages…why not? for the simple reason, it never happened (meaning J Smith said he told, but no evidence he told the truth)

You can google Dave’s uncle newspapers , this site collection of newspapers from 1816 to 1867? and check the newspapers in the Palmyra area…you will never find anything on J Smith claiming he saw two personages, or even that these characters were deities..
If you want to find the real God of the Bible , read The book of John in the Bible…a book inspired by the real Holy Spirit.
Again not a single corroboration, that J Smith… telling this story(TALL TALE ) In 18 years.(1820-1838)

[UtahTexan]

 

TMESSENGER here again  let me summarize items on my question

 

let me listed them again

[) Lectures on Faith, where they say that God the Father is a Spirit. Why would Joseph teach such a thing if the father had a tangible body?

(lecture # 5)

2) Book of Commandments lacked any first vision account.

3) JST changes did not “correct” Biblical claims otherwise.

4) Book of Mormon shows a monotheistic God who is a Spirit.

5) neither Book of Moses nor Book of Abraham state that God has a physical body, though they disagree on God vs Gods

Had Joseph seen a tangible God the Father and was severely persecuted for telling people that he had, why would he not teach it to the church from the very beginning? Surely the town bullies would have let word get out about Joseph’s claims. Why only share it with people who would persecute him? I’m not asking for proof that God exists here, I’m asking for evidence that Joseph Smith told his the story to the early saints in the school of the prophets or such? Surely some conference proceeding, some talks, some journal recording what conference was about, some letter, some news letter, some news paper article, some painted pot, something would record that Joseph was teaching that God had a physical body prior to the crafting of the official version of the first vision.]

Just read them again…and think of the impossibility of not finding any of this ton of evidence that would had to be available to anyone searching history, or just plain newspapers.

I have four books written between 1842 to 1867 (one of these books is an original copy. You can order a photo-print of this book for 20+ from amazon.from Pomeroy Tucker Origin and progress of mormonism 1867, a fellow contemporary of J Smith about the same age)and they all attack J Smith the new “prophet” and his claims of being a “true prophet” and his golden bible,

But none attacked him on the claims that he saw God and his Son, or even that J Smith saw two personages…why not? for the simple reason, it never happened (meaning J Smith said he told, but no evidence he told the truth)

You can google Dave’s uncle newspapers , this site collection of newspapers from 1816 to 1867? and check the newspapers in the Palmyra area…you will never find anything on J Smith claiming he saw two personages, or even that these characters were deities..

If you want to find the real God of the Bible , read The book of John in the Bible…a book inspired by the real Holy Spirit.

Again not a single corroboration, that J Smith… telling this story(TALL TALE ) In 18 years.(1820-1838)

 

 

You start of with a conclusion and then build your question to support your conclusion.

 

You presuppose that Joseph told , or needed to tell, people other than his family.

 

Others he might have told or DID tell, did  not believe him...

 

So...your question starts from a bad conclusion and the perpetuates the conclusion.