The Problem With The First Vision Accounts

[carbon dioxide]

The Presbyterian Smiths were just another a part of the Great Revival of 1824.

 

The PGP version should be quietly retired from public view.

I don't think so.  Joseph retold his experiences through his eyes of a  14 year old.  There is clear evidence that there was religious activity going in the area.  We should not just look at Palmyra but other areas Joseph could have gone to as well.  Joseph never suggests that "revival" only occurred at this time.  The First Vision was for Joseph Smith.  What his mother does or does not do really does not matter.  She and the rest of the family could do whatever they wanted. 

 

Personally I don't think the word "join" means "don't become a member."  I view the instruction by the Lord is one of don't adopt their teachings or views as true.  If Joseph wants to socialize with other groups fine.  If Joseph wanted to become a member in name only for friendship and association with people, no big deal.  Just be ready to break away and focus on what the Lord was going to call him to do.  It seems to me that whatever level of "joining" they did during those years, it did not last.  Lucy may have joined but did not plant her flag in that belief system.

[Calm]

"It is the nature of boards."

I so wish I save that study that showed the majority of Internet communication was miscommunication (don't remember if it meant just these types of conversations or if it included emails).

[Calm]

. If I am trying to give you the story of what happened to justify my actions, then I will tell you the whole truth.

Is this what Joseph was trying to do in the 1832 version though? Could there have been another purpose that led him to craft his recounting of his experience in such a way?

This was not a published account. Knowing what use Joseph intended for it, perhaps for himself and perhaps those closest to him as opposed to the general public who would not have had as many opportunities, if any, to hear him relate his experience would be helpful, don't you think?

Edited February 25, 2015 by calmoriah

[UtahTexan]

Is this what Joseph was trying to do in the 1832 version though? Could there have been another purpose that led him to craft his recounting of his experience in such a way?

Do we have the reason he wrote it?

 

Why would he not tell the great news of it?

[Uncle Dale]

I don't think so. Joseph retold his experiences through his eyes of a 14 year old. There is clear evidence that there was religious activity going in the area. We should not just look at Palmyra but other areas Joseph could have gone to as well. Joseph never suggests that "revival" only occurred at this time. The First Vision was for Joseph Smith. What his mother does or does not do really does not matter. She and the rest of the family could do whatever they wanted.

Personally I don't think the word "join" means "don't become a member." I view the instruction by the Lord is one of don't adopt their teachings or views as true. If Joseph wants to socialize with other groups fine. If Joseph wanted to become a member in name only for friendship and association with people, no big deal. Just be ready to break away and focus on what the Lord was going to call him to do. It seems to me that whatever level of "joining" they did during those years, it did not last. Lucy may have joined but did not plant her flag in that belief system.

.

Stop and think about what you are saying. Backman did not put the Hill Cumorah

at the center of his 1820 Great Revival map for no reason. Back when I attended

classes on this topic, the teacher pointed out President Smith's 1843 conversation

with the editor of the Pittsburgh Gazette, in which Smith pointedly said that the great

revival began right there in his own neighborhood -- Manchester -- and it was

from that Hill Cumorah, where the sixth depensation came to an end, that

the glorious and final dispensation of God's own Truth began in 1820, developed

in 1823, and burst forth upon the nations in 1827.

Rev. Stoddard, at Alvin's funeral, warned the Smiths of the consequences of

dying an unbaptized sinner. Can we realistically believe that young Joe told

his mother, "Sure, go ahead and get Hyrum a Presbyterian baptism -- it is

totally bogus, and you and his godparents will have to lie at that ordinance,

but it's OK, I saw the Father and the Son, and I'm sure they'll approve of

your swearing to the Apostles Creed and paying tithing to that sect..."

The same Rev. Stoddard participated in the 1824 Palmyra revival, as did

Rev. Lane, the Methodist. This was the Rev. Lane whose 1824 revival

sermon invited the listeners to read the book of James.

After that, young Joe probably really did counsel his family not to stand

up in any Palmyra sectarian congregation, swearing to its creeds and

taking holy communion with its members.

But, then, again, that wasn't in 1820. And, in 1820, Manchester and

its hill were the center of nothing special, let alone the commencement

of preparation for the seventh dispensation of the everlasting gospel.

UD

Edited February 25, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[Calm]

CB, see my addition.

This account was never published in his lifetime and wasn't published I believe until the 1960s.

It was also a rare writing in his own hand and not dictated. Seems likely therefore to me he meant it for more personal use. If so, then I can see him crafting it to focus on a personal need at that time...and his need might not have included remembering obvious details but in helping himself create a picture for himself to motivate or reassure. 1832 was a hard year for Joseph, maybe he was writing a personal pep talk which is why he focused on the forgiveness of his personal sins and the Atonement.

If I recall correctly, this is the account that is written paralleling how Paul experienced his conversion and calling. If so, could not Joseph be using this account to help himself strengthen his determination in what he saw as his calling (without the need to justify that calling to others)?

Edited February 25, 2015 by calmoriah

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

"It is the nature of boards."

I so wish I save that study that showed the majority of Internet communication was miscommunication (don't remember if it meant just these types of conversations or if it included emails).

I remember years ago, with my high school classes, that when we communicate face to face, there are several other ways in which we communicate. There is visual, body language, as well as other audible cues that let us know more how some one is responding or communicating. Since those cues are not available in an internet board setting, we are missing out on a lot of info that would normally be communicated. As such it is really easy to misread what is being talked about. And interpret things that are simply not there.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

It was also a rare writing in his own hand and not dictated. Seems likely therefore to me he meant it for more personal use. If so, then I can see him crafting it to focus on a personal need at that time...and his need might not have included remembering obvious details but in helping himself create a picture for himself to motivate or reassure. 1832 was a hard year for Joseph, maybe he was writing a personal pep talk which is why he focused on the forgiveness of his personal sins and the Atonement.

This is another aspect that makes it really hard to figure things out. There is just not a lot of data for us to come to a good conclusion of why he wrote it this way this time.

 

I find this to be a reasonable assumption.

[Calm]

Someone (Nofear I believe) posted a study not too long ago somewhere that demonstrated a group's rate of success in effectiveness was increased by having women included. Iirc the conclusion was in part women contributed so much because of their increased ability to read nonverbals cues. If someone cares enough, I will track it down and see if my memory is halfway accurate.

[Calm]

See here for a description of what was going on in Joseph's life prior to his recording this account (this is where I got the context of hardship and frustration):

http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/joseph-smith-prophet-and-seer/joseph-smith-and-vision-1832

[Uncle Dale]

CB, see my addition.

This account was never published in his lifetime and wasn't published I believe until the 1960s.

It was also a rare writing in his own hand and not dictated. Seems likely therefore to me he meant it for more personal use. If so, then I can see him crafting it to focus on a personal need at that time...and his need might not have included remembering obvious details but in helping himself create a picture for himself to motivate or reassure. 1832 was a hard year for Joseph, maybe he was writing a personal pep talk which is why he focused on the forgiveness of his personal sins and the Atonement.

If I recall correctly, this is the account that is written paralleling how Paul experienced his conversion and calling. If so, could not Joseph be using this account to help himself strengthen his determination in what he saw as his calling (without the need to justify that calling to others)?

I'd say that the very end of 1833 and beginning of 1834 were much,

much more difficult times for Smith, and the Saints generally. In

1832 missionaries Samuel H. Smith and Orson Hyde were traveling

the roads of New England, strenuously warning listeners to flee

to the divine safety of western Missouri. And that wonderful, marvelous

events were about to unfold, before their very eyes.

In 1832 Joseph had the confidence to write a letter to the editor of

a Rochester religious newspaper, prophesying even to Gentiles,

what God was telling them. 1832 was the year of The Vision, as

Samuel and Orson called it, when a letter arrived from Hiram, Ohio.

It was the year that God would gather His Saints, protect them,

and glorify them in Zion.

I'd suppose that Joseph felt more optimistic and ready for good

things in 1832 than in either of the two following years.

UD

[Buckeye]

Someone (Nofear I believe) posted a study not too long ago somewhere that demonstrated a group's rate of success in effectiveness was increased by having women included. Iirc the conclusion was in part women contributed so much because of their increased ability to read nonverbals cues. If someone cares enough, I will track it down and see if my memory is halfway accurate.

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/01/the-secret-to-smart-groups-isnt-smart-people/384625/

[Ahab]

When TBM's show anger it feels as if they're insecure in their beliefs if addressing concerns of those LDS that struggle.

It's usually frustration rather than anger. When people don't seem to see or understand what I think is obvious, especially after I've gone through the trouble of trying to make it even more clear for them, maybe even multiple times, I tend to think they're not really paying attention, and sometimes that is frustrating to me. I'm trying to learn to just let it go when that happens to me, though, without worrying about if they are ever going to see what I see.

[Buckeye]

It's usually frustration rather than anger. When people don't seem to see or understand what I think is obvious, especially after I've gone through the trouble of trying to make it even more clear for them, maybe even multiple times, I tend to think they're not really paying attention, and sometimes that is frustrating to me. I'm trying to learn to just let it go when that happens to me, though, without worrying about if they are ever going to see what I see.

 

Why can't everyone just agree that I'm right !!??!!  Is that too much to ask?

[Ahab]

Is this what Joseph was trying to do in the 1832 version though? Could there have been another purpose that led him to craft his recounting of his experience in such a way?

This was not a published account. Knowing what use Joseph intended for it, perhaps for himself and perhaps those closest to him as opposed to the general public who would not have had as many opportunities, if any, to hear him relate his experience would be helpful, don't you think?

I don't know for sure that he wrote that account CB posted but if he did I'd guess it was an exercise in free writing, or brainstorming, or whatever the technical term is for the type of writing someone does when they just write whatever comes to their mind. It's not intended to be a finished product. Just free flowing thoughts written down as soon as they come or at least as fast as they can be written down, without worrying about punctuation or spelling or how it sounds or looks. And then the next step, after that, is to clean it up and make any corrections desired.

I've seen his writing in other places and that is not what his writing (usually) looks like.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Ahab

[Ahab]

Why can't everyone just agree that I'm right !!??!! Is that too much to ask?

I may not always say it but I always agree with you whenever you agree with me and what God has told me.

[Ahab]

Someone (Nofear I believe) posted a study not too long ago somewhere that demonstrated a group's rate of success in effectiveness was increased by having women included. Iirc the conclusion was in part women contributed so much because of their increased ability to read nonverbals cues. If someone cares enough, I will track it down and see if my memory is halfway accurate.

I'll save you the trouble and just tell you right now that your memory is halfway accurate.

[Uncle Dale]

...

But, then, again, that wasn't in 1820. And, in 1820, Manchester and

its hill were the center of nothing special...

 

 

Can anybody here tell me what they were taught in Sunday

meetings, or in seminary, or in institute classes, about this:

 

 

Lucy: "What is the matter, Joseph?"

 

Young Joe: "Never mind, mother... All is well -- I have learned

for myself that Presbyterianism is not true."

 

???

 

UD

[Calm]

I don't know for sure that he wrote that account CB posted.

If you are referring to the 1832 account, I don't know of anyone who has studied it who claims it is not in JS's handwriting....and I highly doubt he was taking dictation from someone else for the account.

"I've seen his writing in other places and that is not what his writing (usually) looks like."

We don't have much written in Joseph's own hand. Are you talking about comparing everything he wrote out himself with the 1832 account or are you including stuff he dictated as well?

Please give examples of how the 1832 account varies significantly in your opinion from his other own handwritten writings.

Edited February 25, 2015 by calmoriah

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Can anybody here tell me what they were taught in Sunday

meetings, or in seminary, or in institute classes, about this:

 

 

 

???

 

UD

As I recall that it was with regards to the first vision. Of course my memory keeps going back to the living scriptures on this one.

[Uncle Dale]

As I recall that it was with regards to the first vision. Of course my memory keeps going back to the living scriptures on this one.

 

First I was taught that it was a recollection of a

conversation occurring in the spring of 1820.

 

Then I attended a class at Graceland College (now

Graceland University) in which I was told that if it

was a valid recollection, it dated after Alvin's death.

 

Certainly there must be some participant in a message

board of this size who can give me a better account of

things than what I've so far been told.

 

???

 

UD

[Ahab]

If you are referring to the 1832 account, I don't know of anyone who has studied it who claims it is not in JS's handwriting....and I highly doubt he was taking dictation from someone else for the account.

"I've seen his writing in other places and that is not what his writing (usually) looks like."

We don't have much written in Joseph's own hand. Are you talking about comparing everything he wrote out himself with the 1832 account or are you including stuff he dictated as well?

Please give examples of how the 1832 account varies significantly in your opinion from his other own handwritten writings.

I'm talking more about content and style than handwriting. That just runs on and on with no punctuation, and he usually used punctuation. Compare what he wrote while in Liberty jail, including what he said our Lord told him, comparing the History of the Church account and the D&C account/revison. Show me some more examples where he ran on and on in his writings with no punctuation, if you know of any (others) like that.

[Nevo]

Show me some more examples where he ran on and on in his writings with no punctuation, if you know of any (others) like that.

 

Here's one: Letter to Church Leaders in Jackson Country, Missouri, 18 August 1833

[Calm]

I owe you. I do not want to do research today.

Or go ask someone else to do it for me either.

Edited February 25, 2015 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Did find this though:

http://josephsmithpapers.org/site/documents-in-joseph-smiths-handwriting

Would have been easier than I thought, but still more work than I want to do.