Scott Lloyd Posted February 17, 2015 Author Posted February 17, 2015 Or maybe like the Ordain women group, and the SSM group, and the "whatever my hobby horse" group think, despite the teaching of his predecessor Pres. Kimball thought he could convince God to change his mind or will.And he was apparently right.President Kimball in his account in OD2 in fact made reference to the statements of his predecessors as justification for his seeking revelation on the subject.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 17, 2015 Author Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Dehlin's timing is off. It'll be sooner.OK. You may be interested in my periodic countdown clock readings. As of this moment it is 39 years, 11 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 7 hours, 25 minutes and 45 seconds and counting down. You claim it will be sooner. Time is running out. Would you like to set your own deadline? If it's sooner than 40 years, I may have a better chance of living to see it. Edited February 17, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
california boy Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Or maybe like the Ordain women group, and the SSM group, and the "whatever my hobby horse" group think, despite the teaching of his predecessor Pres. Kimball thought he could convince God to change his mind or will.And he was apparently right. It wouldn't be the first time a prophet has changed the mind of God. Moses changed God's mind to not destroy the children of Israel. Exodus 33 7 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted February 17, 2015 Author Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) It wouldn't be the first time a prophet has changed the mind of God. Moses changed God's mind to not destroy the children of Israel.Your reference is wrong. It is chapter 32, not 33. And you need to be made aware that this is one of the passages that was altered in the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible. Verse 4 has a considerable amount of added text. It reads: 14 And the Lord said unto Moses, If they will repent of the evil which they have done, I will spare them, and turn away my fierce wrath; but, behold, thou shalt execute judgment upon all that will not repent of this evil this day. Therefore, see thou do this thing that I have commanded thee, or I will execute all that which I had thought to do unto my people. Sheds a lot of light on that verse, doesn't it? Mortal men and women do not change God's mind. What they can do through prayer is secure for themselves and others blessings that God is already willing to grant but are made conditional upon one's asking for them. Blessings require some effort or work on our part, and prayer is a form of work through which we strive to unite our mind and will with that of God (see Bible Dictionary, "Prayer" entry, in the LDS edition of the King James Bible). It is vain (in more than one sense of the term) for man to suppose that he can change the mind of God. God is perfect in thought as in all other respects. Edited February 17, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
stemelbow Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 OK. You may be interested in my periodic countdown clock readings. As of this moment it is 39 years, 11 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 7 hours, 25 minutes and 45 seconds. You claim it will be sooner. Time is running out. Would you like to set your own deadline? If it's sooner than 40 years, I may have a better chance of living to see it. Sure. Will it hurt you somehow? I don't think so. You'll probably have come around enough to accept it by then. Kinda like the priesthood ban. It would have caused many to question the Church completely if it was lifted sooner, apparently. But outside forces helped members realize, "This ban thing is crazy....I hope it's lifted soon. Can't get on board with this discrimination thing." Oh I say 25 years should wind up the scene.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 17, 2015 Author Posted February 17, 2015 Sure. Will it hurt you somehow? I don't think so. You'll probably have come around enough to accept it by then. Kinda like the priesthood ban. It would have caused many to question the Church completely if it was lifted sooner, apparently. But outside forces helped members realize, "This ban thing is crazy....I hope it's lifted soon. Can't get on board with this discrimination thing."Oh I say 25 years should wind up the scene.OK. Will you be around in 25 years when I revisit this? I'll start a new timer just for you. Pushing the start button ... NOW.
stemelbow Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Your reference is wrong. It is chapter 32, not 33. And you need to be made aware that this is one of the passages that was altered in the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible. Verse 4 has a considerable amount of added text. It reads: Sheds a lot of light on that verse, doesn't it? Mortal men and women do not change God's mind. What they can do through prayer is secure for themselves and others blessings that God is already willing to grant but are made conditional upon one's asking for them. Blessings require some effort or work on our part, and prayer is a form of work through which we strive to unite our mind and will with that of God (see Bible Dictionary, "Prayer" entry, in the LDS edition of the King James Bible). It is vain (in more than one sense of the term) for man to suppose that he can change the mind of God. God is perfect in thought as in all other respects. Hey Scott. I just can't get on board with your claim that us poor mortals can't change God's mind. It makes prayer superfluous. Perhaps God designs to kill a cancer patient if his family doesn't pray for him/her. But that just seems to me to be saying God will change His mind based on what mortals do. It's all got to be somewhat dependent on us, otherwise we just have God playing with our puppet strings.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 17, 2015 Author Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Hey Scott. I just can't get on board with your claim that us poor mortals can't change God's mind. It makes prayer superfluous.Perhaps God designs to kill a cancer patient if his family doesn't pray for him/her. But that just seems to me to be saying God will change His mind based on what mortals do.It's all got to be somewhat dependent on us, otherwise we just have God playing with our puppet strings.Apparently you missed or ignored what I said about the purpose of prayer. It is not superfluous. It is absolutely essential. Please re-read my post for comprehension. Better yet, see this passage in the Bible Dictionary: As soon as we learn the true relationship in which we stand toward God (namely, God is our Father, and we are His children), then at once prayer becomes natural and instinctive on our part (Matt. 7:7–11). Many of the so-called difficulties about prayer arise from forgetting this relationship. Prayer is the act by which the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into correspondence with each other. The object of prayer is not to change the will of God but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant but that are made conditional on our asking for them. Blessings require some work or effort on our part before we can obtain them. Prayer is a form of work and is an appointed means for obtaining the highest of all blessings. Bold emphasis mine. Edited February 17, 2015 by Scott Lloyd 1
JLHPROF Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Hey Scott. I just can't get on board with your claim that us poor mortals can't change God's mind. It makes prayer superfluous. I actually agree with Scott - man cannot change any eternal immutable law no matter how much they pray. God has a rulebook that he has to stick to else he would cease to be God. Some things can be changed (help me find a job, heal my sick granny), others cannot (turn me into a bird, let me murder anyone that bugs me). The problem is nobody can agree on which things can be changed, which ones can't, and when something violates eternal law.The second problem is the assumption that whatever choice, change or decision the General Authorities make will match God's will. Until the first problem is resolved absolutely this debate will continue.Dealing with the second problem becomes a matter of faith, not fact. Personally, I don't believe God can or will EVER authorize SSM. I am less convinced about the General Authorities. They have bowed to member pressure far too often for me to make an absolute statement on their future positions. Edited February 17, 2015 by JLHPROF
stemelbow Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Apparently you missed or ignored what I said about the purpose of prayer. It is not superfluous. It is absolutely essential. Please re-read my post for comprehension. Better yet, see this passage in the Bible Dictionary: Bold emphasis mine. nah...I caught it. The object of prayer may not be to change the will of God, but that doesn't mean God's will can't change. Do this or else, say He.
stemelbow Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) I actually agree with Scott - man cannot change any eternal immutable law no matter how much they pray. What do you mean? Some circumstances require God to make exceptions. Like murder. Poor laban was murdered but that "immutable" law changed right there. God has a rulebook that he has to stick to else he would cease to be God. Some things can be changed (help me find a job, heal my sick granny), others cannot (turn me into a bird, let me murder anyone that bugs me). But that's not what our beloved Joseph said. he suggested that some things at one time are good but bad at other times. Like murder. Kill 'em. Says, God. and that is good even if they are helpless children. Don't you dare kill at all, He says at another time. The problem is nobody can agree on which things can be changed, which ones can't, and when something violates eternal law. The second problem is the assumption that whatever choice, change or decision the General Authorities make will match God's will. Until the first problem is resolved absolutely this debate will continue. Dealing with the second problem becomes a matter of faith, not fact. Personally, I don't believe God can or will EVER authorize SSM. I am less convinced about the General Authorities. They have bowed to member pressure far too often for me to make an absolute statement on their future positions. Sure God won't change, just don't read the scriptures and tell ourselves that, I guess. He probably already supported SSM. It just so happens we humans are running on culture and tradition these days. We ain't got a revelation to save us. Edited February 17, 2015 by stemelbow
JLHPROF Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) What do you mean? Some circumstances require God to make exceptions. Like murder. Poor laban was murdered but that "immutable" law changed right there. No, that immutable law didn't change. Nephi killed Laban for God. God passed judgement and killed Laban, Nephi was the tool, the executioner, not the murderer. It is not against the immutable law for God to kill man. Happens every day.If Nephi had taken it upon himself to kill Laban in cold blood he would have violated God's law. What actually happened was God used Nephi to end Laban's life, well within the right of law. Kind of like a death row executioner doesn't get put on trial for murder.No law broken. Edited February 17, 2015 by JLHPROF 3
stemelbow Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 No, that immutable law didn't change. Nephi killed Laban for God. God passed judgement and killed Laban, Nephi was the tool, the executioner, not the murderer. It is not against the immutable law for God to kill man. Happens every day. If Nephi had taken it upon himself to kill Laban in cold blood he would have violated God's law. What actually happened was God used Nephi to end Laban's life, well within the right of law. Kind of like a death row executioner doesn't get put on trial for murder. No law broken. eh...Alright. Not sure I can buy this. But we all have to live with scripture somehow. How about this: 1 Samuel 15:3 "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' Is killing children and infants murdering in cold blood?
Scott Lloyd Posted February 17, 2015 Author Posted February 17, 2015 nah...I caught it. The object of prayer may not be to change the will of God, but that doesn't mean God's will can't change. Do this or else, say He.This makes no sense. God is perfect. Which means He is not capricious. Which means he is not subject to the cajoling and reasoning of mortals who are infinitely inferior to Him.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 17, 2015 Author Posted February 17, 2015 eh...Alright. Not sure I can buy this. But we all have to live with scripture somehow. How about this:1 Samuel 15:3"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'Is killing children and infants murdering in cold blood?This side conversation is taking the thread afield. Please start a new thread for it.
stemelbow Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 This makes no sense. God is perfect. Which means He is not capricious. Which means he is not subject to the cajoling and reasoning of mortals who are infinitely inferior to Him. But He is impacted. That's why we hold dear our idea of a weeping God. That's really the Mormonism that resonates with people, it seems to me. He ain't some weird being without emotion. He's much like us and actually feels and is impacted by us, even brought to tears on our behalf.
JLHPROF Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) eh...Alright. Not sure I can buy this. But we all have to live with scripture somehow. How about this:1 Samuel 15:3"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'Is killing children and infants murdering in cold blood? Once again, same principle as with Nephi. God passed judgement and killed the Amalekites, using the Israelites as the executioners. God has the right to end man's life in whatever manner he chooses and it is not murder. It will likely happen again in the end times as whole cities are destroyed by God. But as Scott said, this is derailing. To return to the topic at hand, SSM either is or is not one of these immutable laws that even God Almighty couldn't change even if he wanted to.Scott and I (and Elder Christofferson) believe it is. You and others here believe it isn't. However as I said before, unlike Scott I don't believe this will prevent our leaders from changing the law of chastity, and I base that on how often they have changed doctrine in the past (sometimes claiming revelation, sometimes not claiming it).It wouldn't surprise me at all to see this "prophecy" come to pass one day.Now whether it will be God or man that fulfills it is a different issue... Edited February 17, 2015 by JLHPROF
Scott Lloyd Posted February 17, 2015 Author Posted February 17, 2015 But He is impacted. That's why we hold dear our idea of a weeping God. That's really the Mormonism that resonates with people, it seems to me. He ain't some weird being without emotion. He's much like us and actually feels and is impacted by us, even brought to tears on our behalf.The notion that to be perfect He must be emotionless is yours, not mine.
JLHPROF Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 This makes no sense. God is perfect. Which means He is not capricious. Which means he is not subject to the cajoling and reasoning of mortals who are infinitely inferior to Him. I think this is a bit of a hardline. We can absolutely reason with God and weary him with our cries to receive the answers we're looking for. Scripture is full of examples. Heck, Jacob 2 is a perfect example - where plural marriage was revoked due to the cries of the women and children concerning the wicked husbands abusing the principle. But He is impacted. That's why we hold dear our idea of a weeping God. That's really the Mormonism that resonates with people, it seems to me. He ain't some weird being without emotion. He's much like us and actually feels and is impacted by us, even brought to tears on our behalf. But Scott is right, no amount of emotion can persuade God to violate eternal law. It's impossible.
Kaleb Webb Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 What actually happened was God used Nephi to end Laban's life, well within the right of law.I would agree with this, except that there have been instances in the Bible where God has carried out the execution himself (Uzzah steadying the ark, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah)
Scott Lloyd Posted February 17, 2015 Author Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) I think this is a bit of a hardline. We can absolutely reason with God and weary him with our cries to receive the answers we're looking for. Scripture is full of examples. Heck, Jacob 2 is a perfect example - where plural marriage was revoked due to the cries of the women and children concerning the wicked husbands abusing the principle. If it is the parable of the importunate widow and the unjust judge you have in mind, I caution you not to carry its interpretation too far. Parables, like analogies and other forms of imagery, are meant to apply to the thing they are compared to only in limited respects. Obviously, in His parable of the unjust judge, Jesus was not saying Heavenly Father is unjust. Rather, as it says right there in the scripture, the point of the parable is to illustrate that "men ought to pray and not faint." If this widow could succeed with an unjust judge who did not love her, how much more apt are we with persistent prayer and faith to succeed with a merciful and wise Heavenly Father who does love us with an infinite love. Furthermore, when He tells us to be persistent in our prayers, it is for our benefit, not His. It's not to change His mind, as you have so aptly stated. It is to develop in us faith and strength of character and to build and bolster our relationship with Him. Edited February 17, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
stemelbow Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 The notion that to be perfect He must be emotionless is yours, not mine. But it's true He does listen to us and is impacted by us. That's all I'm saying. The reference to emotion is one example of where our cajoling and reasoning does impact Him.
teddyaware Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) I think this is a bit of a hardline. We can absolutely reason with God and weary him with our cries to receive the answers we're looking for. Scripture is full of examples. Heck, Jacob 2 is a perfect example - where plural marriage was revoked due to the cries of the women and children concerning the wicked husbands abusing the principle. But Scott is right, no amount of emotion can persuade God to violate eternal law. It's impossible. In Jacob 2, the practice of polygamy among the Nephites was never "revoked" because it was never invoked by a special revelation to the priesthood leaders in the first place. A careful reading of the chapter will show some Nephite men read about the plural wives of the likes of David and Solomon and then TOOK IT UPON THEMSELVES to take plural wives without the imprimatur of God. I've always imagined that with the deaths of the patriarchal figures of Lehi and Nephi that beginnings of a sort of chaotic "law of the jungle" environment began to prevail among the Nephites, thus requiring the need for Jacob to come down on the do-it-yourself polygamists like a ton of bricks. Edited February 17, 2015 by teddyaware
Scott Lloyd Posted February 17, 2015 Author Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) But it's true He does listen to us and is impacted by us. That's all I'm saying. The reference to emotion is one example of where our cajoling and reasoning does impact Him.When you use the word "impact," it seems to connote that our behavior in some way takes Him by surprise, if not off guard. I can't accept that as true, considering that God has perfect knowledge and is thus not apt to be surprised by anything. Edited February 17, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
rockpond Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 "Concerned," then. Why is it not of greater concern when jd, and Paul Toscano before him, catalog grievances and induce people to leave, whereupon their membership is put in play by priesthood authorities? I'm not aware of anyone who says that Dehlin or Toscano induced them to leave. I do know people who left because of issues that Dehlin discussed. But Dehlin didn't create those issues, he just explored them. And those issues along with how we explore them is of high importance to me which I why I often discuss them on these boards. 1
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