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A Strange Question From Me...


LOSTONE

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There was never a time when there was just nothing.  It would be illogical.  I had a powerful spiritual witness when I was a young boy and came away with the conviction that there was never a "beginning of beginnings".  Even scientists admit there were pre-conditions to the "Big Bang".  If you like, you can search for my alternate hypothesis on this board in the past year or so that explains the red shift in photons that are not necessarily related to the "Big Bang".  The D&C testifies that things have ALWAYS existed.

Edited by longview
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As longview says, we don't believe in creation ex nihilo.  The raw materials ("stuff") from which the world was created (organized) came from somewhere. And, while I don't understand it because my finite mind cannot comprehend it, you and I have always existed in some form.  We were intelligences ("light and truth," according to the Doctrine and Covenants) before we became spirits, our spirits were clothed in physical bodies when we came to this earth, our spirits will "shuffle off" our "mortal coils" when we depart this life, and our spirits will be united with glorified, perfected, immortal, resurrected physical bodies when we are resurrected.

 

Lots to chew on, there, I know. ;):D  

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There was never a time when there was just nothing. It would be illogical. I had a powerful spiritual witness when I was a young boy and came away with the conviction that there was never a "beginning of beginnings". Even scientists admit there were pre-conditions to the "Big Bang". If you like, you can search for my alternate hypothesis on this board in the past year or so that explains the red shift in photons that are not necessarily related to the "Big Bang". The D&C testifies that things have ALWAYS existed.

How can that be I wonder? When I was younger I would often try to imagine what it would be like with no Universe, what would that be like? It's beyond imagination. Edited by Tacenda
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What comes before nothing? Nope, this is not a trick question or idiotic as it may appear. I am getting to a point after I get some replies. Thanks.

 

The Book of Mormon prophet Lehi powerfully testifies that there never was a beginning of truth, existence and reality. The following verses answer some of the most difficult questions philosophers have been wresting with for millennia...

 

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

 12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

 13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away. (2 Nephi 2)

Edited by teddyaware
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Ok, I was going to hold on sharing my point for this post and question, but because of some great insightful answers given, I will get to my point on this post.

I totally agree with what some have said and thus, have to ask how can the “Big Bang Theory” have any factual creditability when it is based on a sudden explosion ( expansion ) of matter, time, and everything else from a single (inactive) point becoming active, and yet have no evidence of what caused it or came before it as in a pre-step to it going boom? The only explanation is God. God was there before nothing ever was including the single point the big bang theory is based on. God proves the big bang theory is just a theory and never a fact based on anything outside of God. Those scientists that say it was a big bang that created everything or started things in motion are wrong. The answer to my strange question proves it. I hope I did not over complicate my thought here, but as usually, I probably did.

Also, to those who say the big bang is not a theory, but something that has been proven, that would be incorrect. I have searched alot on line about the big bang including NASA’s website and everything shows that the big band is still yet unproven as fact and still remains in a theoretical realm only.

Also, the answers given to this question help show that atheists are wrong about God not existing. For what causes this Earth and people to come to be if not for God? The big bang? Already shown how that was not the reason behind Earth and people? If atheist are correct and God is not real or here, than it only stands to reason we shouldn’t be real or here either. If there was never nothing before nothing, than there was always something and that something has always been God. Atheist have yet to prove their point as valid on any factual level . They may not want to own up to God’s ways or responsibilities and fear his judgment, but wanting something isn’t prove of anything. They have no prove.

This is the point of my question and seeking answers to it. To show it is and always was God for how we got here. No big bang anything and no he’s not there anything. God is and always was even before anything and before nothing.

Okay, I think I way....over thought this. Sorry. ( I sometimes sound like Sheldon Cooper )

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Ok, I was going to hold on sharing my point for this post and question, but because of some great insightful answers given, I will get to my point on this post.

I totally agree with what some have said and thus, have to ask how can the “Big Bang Theory” have any factual creditability when it is based on a sudden explosion ( expansion ) of matter, time, and everything else from a single (inactive) point becoming active, and yet have no evidence of what caused it or came before it as in a pre-step to it going boom? The only explanation is God. God was there before nothing ever was including the single point the big bang theory is based on. God proves the big bang theory is just a theory and never a fact based on anything outside of God. Those scientists that say it was a big bang that created everything or started things in motion are wrong. The answer to my strange question proves it. I hope I did not over complicate my thought here, but as usually, I probably did.

Also, to those who say the big bang is not a theory, but something that has been proven, that would be incorrect. I have searched alot on line about the big bang including NASA’s website and everything shows that the big band is still yet unproven as fact and still remains in a theoretical realm only.

Also, the answers given to this question help show that atheists are wrong about God not existing. For what causes this Earth and people to come to be if not for God? The big bang? Already shown how that was not the reason behind Earth and people? If atheist are correct and God is not real or here, than it only stands to reason we shouldn’t be real or here either. If there was never nothing before nothing, than there was always something and that something has always been God. Atheist have yet to prove their point as valid on any factual level . They may not want to own up to God’s ways or responsibilities and fear his judgment, but wanting something isn’t prove of anything. They have no prove.

This is the point of my question and seeking answers to it. To show it is and always was God for how we got here. No big bang anything and no he’s not there anything. God is and always was even before anything and before nothing.

Okay, I think I way....over thought this. Sorry. ( I sometimes sound like Sheldon Cooper )

 

Not to be too critical but your logic that the something before had to be God is not self evident. 

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Not to be too critical but your logic that the something before had to be God is not self evident. 

 

Never claimed it was. Just stating my opinion based on what appears logical to me. What is your take on the answer to my question in this post?

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Ok, I was going to hold on sharing my point for this post and question, but because of some great insightful answers given, I will get to my point on this post.

I totally agree with what some have said and thus, have to ask how can the “Big Bang Theory” have any factual creditability when it is based on a sudden explosion ( expansion ) of matter, time, and everything else from a single (inactive) point becoming active, and yet have no evidence of what caused it or came before it as in a pre-step to it going boom? The only explanation is God. God was there before nothing ever was including the single point the big bang theory is based on. God proves the big bang theory is just a theory and never a fact based on anything outside of God. Those scientists that say it was a big bang that created everything or started things in motion are wrong. The answer to my strange question proves it. I hope I did not over complicate my thought here, but as usually, I probably did.

Also, to those who say the big bang is not a theory, but something that has been proven, that would be incorrect. I have searched alot on line about the big bang including NASA’s website and everything shows that the big band is still yet unproven as fact and still remains in a theoretical realm only.

Also, the answers given to this question help show that atheists are wrong about God not existing. For what causes this Earth and people to come to be if not for God? The big bang? Already shown how that was not the reason behind Earth and people? If atheist are correct and God is not real or here, than it only stands to reason we shouldn’t be real or here either. If there was never nothing before nothing, than there was always something and that something has always been God. Atheist have yet to prove their point as valid on any factual level . They may not want to own up to God’s ways or responsibilities and fear his judgment, but wanting something isn’t prove of anything. They have no prove.

This is the point of my question and seeking answers to it. To show it is and always was God for how we got here. No big bang anything and no he’s not there anything. God is and always was even before anything and before nothing.

Okay, I think I way....over thought this. Sorry. ( I sometimes sound like Sheldon Cooper )

 

Let's get down to brass tacks here. OK?

 

The evidence for the Big Bang is overwhelming. While many questions still remain no serious scientist doubts it.

SEE http://www.big-bang-theory.com/

SEE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

 

The singularity that started it all wasn't inactive it was infinitely hot and infinitely dense. All the known laws concerning matter and energy breakdown at that point. So the best way we have to describe it is the Big Bang. What, if anything, that came before it is at this time unknown, by science.

 

A theory is just the best explain of a fact we have so far. IE; The Gravitational Theory is the explanation of gravity. No one serious question the existence of gravity. Newton explained gravity pretty well, Einstein explained it even better for the very large, and Quantum Mechanics explains it even better for the very small.

However we still don't know exactly what gravity is.

SEE http://bigthink.com/videos/gravity-doesnt-exist

 

By definition science can't posit any God or Godlike force onto science and still have it be science. IOW It is many things but science it ain't. Individual scientists can believe or not believe as is their/your choice.

 

My personal choice is to believe is the LDS explanation of God. Others are entitled to disagree.

Edited by thesometimesaint
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Let's get down to brass tacks here. OK?

 

The evidence for the Big Bang is overwhelming. While many questions still remain no serious scientist doubts it.

SEE http://www.big-bang-theory.com/

SEE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

 

The singularity that started it all wasn't inactive it was infinitely hot and infinitely dense. All the known laws concerning matter and energy breakdown at that point. So the best way we have to describe it is the Big Bang. What, if anything, that came before it is at this time unknown, by science.

 

A theory is just the best explain of a fact we have so far. IE; The Gravitational Theory is the explanation of gravity. No one serious question the existence of gravity. Newton explained gravity pretty well, Einstein explained it even better for the very large, and Quantum Mechanics explains it even better for the very small.

However we still don't know exactly what gravity is.

SEE http://bigthink.com/videos/gravity-doesnt-exist

 

By definition science can't posit any God or Godlike force onto science and still have it be science. IOW It is many things but science it ain't. Individual scientists can believe or not believe as is their/your choice.

 

My personal choice is to believe is the LDS explanation of God. Others are entitled to disagree.

 

Okay. I understand what you have said and for the most part, fully agree with you. However, there is one thing. I have studied Quantum physics and isn't the spectrum of Quantum still based on a theoretical foundation? If so, than even quantum mechanics lack proof of anything before nothing so the logical conclusion for a faith based person ( such as myself ) is the answer to my original question would be God. ( Oh wow... I do sound more and more like Sheldon Cooper. )

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Okay. I understand what you have said and for the most part, fully agree with you. However, there is one thing. I have studied Quantum physics and isn't the spectrum of Quantum still based on a theoretical foundation? If so, than even quantum mechanics lack proof of anything before nothing so the logical conclusion for a faith based person ( such as myself ) is the answer to my original question would be God. ( Oh wow... I do sound more and more like Sheldon Cooper. )

 

ALL of science is based on a theoretical foundation. What is the best explanation for how something works or doesn't work.

 

In science we don't talk about proofs(outside of mathematics). We point to evidences. The more evidences for a particular theory the stronger that theory is.

 

For better or worse our concept of what God does or doesn't do is dependent upon which if any God we hold up as God. I'm reasonably sure you don't accept the Hindu God Vishnu, or the God of the Vikings Thor as your God. Well science can't either. It can't accept any God or Godlike force and still be science. IE; Please God don't effect my corn crops I want to see if I am wasting my money on this particular fertilizer or not.

SEE Science is Agnostic

 

The best explanation science can give right now for the origins of our universe is the Big Bang. Who knows but tomorrow someone will come up with a better explanation. But for right now what we have is what we have.

 

Ultimately Arguments from Design/God don't belong in science because it isn't science.

SEE

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Never claimed it was. Just stating my opinion based on what appears logical to me. What is your take on the answer to my question in this post?

 

My take is one that a lot of people can't grasp.  There never was a before it has always been.  I know that is a hard concept to get ones mind around and I am not sure it can bee done completely but I have gotten to the point that I am comfortable with it.

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My take is one that a lot of people can't grasp.  There never was a before it has always been.  I know that is a hard concept to get ones mind around and I am not sure it can bee done completely but I have gotten to the point that I am comfortable with it.

 

Fair enough reply. I don't get your take but it's all good.

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Ok, I was going to hold on sharing my point for this post and question, but because of some great insightful answers given, I will get to my point on this post.

I totally agree with what some have said and thus, have to ask how can the “Big Bang Theory” have any factual creditability when it is based on a sudden explosion ( expansion ) of matter, time, and everything else from a single (inactive) point becoming active, and yet have no evidence of what caused it or came before it as in a pre-step to it going boom? The only explanation is God. God was there before nothing ever was including the single point the big bang theory is based on. God proves the big bang theory is just a theory and never a fact based on anything outside of God. Those scientists that say it was a big bang that created everything or started things in motion are wrong. The answer to my strange question proves it. I hope I did not over complicate my thought here, but as usually, I probably did.

You don't realize how much power you're giving up by denying the Big Bang. I am going to suggest that you get ahold of the book, Why Science Does Not Disprove God by Amir Aczel.  There's a lot there which ought to be help you understand why the Big Bang is the best thing since sliced bread when it comes to destroying atheist arguments which try to bring physics to bear in support of atheism.  The Big Bang is an important part of that.

 

Also, to those who say the big bang is not a theory, but something that has been proven, that would be incorrect. I have searched alot on line about the big bang including NASA’s website and everything shows that the big band is still yet unproven as fact and still remains in a theoretical realm only.

Hah. The Big Bang Theory is indeed a theory. And so is the Theory of Gravitation. Yet I don't believe you can discount gravity just because it is a theory. You need to examine the word "theory" and understand what it means. It does NOT mean something that we have groundless faith in. And if you've researched the Big Bang and have concluded that it is false, well, you're deluding yourself. The Big Bang is so true that there isn't a lot else that is just as true. The theory satisfies virtually all the conditions which we have observed and calculated. It is so thoroughly accepted that there is NO other theory of the genesis of the Universe that has any traction whatsoever.

 

Also, the answers given to this question help show that atheists are wrong about God not existing. For what causes this Earth and people to come to be if not for God? The big bang? Already shown how that was not the reason behind Earth and people? If atheist are correct and God is not real or here, than it only stands to reason we shouldn’t be real or here either. If there was never nothing before nothing, than there was always something and that something has always been God. Atheist have yet to prove their point as valid on any factual level . They may not want to own up to God’s ways or responsibilities and fear his judgment, but wanting something isn’t prove of anything. They have no prove.

The only other theory concerning the genesis of the Universe is the Steady State Theory (SST). That theory says that the Universe has existed forever in the same state it is in now, and will continue to exist forever in the same state. Well, if the SST is true then the entire notion of the existence of God goes right out the window. You cannot say that God created the Universe if the Universe always existed. Both ideas are mutually exclusive.

So, if you insist upon SST, then Atheism triumphs. There is in fact no NEED for God in a Steady State Universe.

Well, there might be a need, but there's no compelling need to believe there's a God if things have always been the way they are and will stay that way forever and anon.

Another important point is this: in order to have created the Universe, by necessity God must have been outside it at the time, or, more to the point, just before He created it, it cannot have existed! This is a matter of extreme importance! For, if he was inside it, then it must have already existed. And if it already existed, then He cannot have created it. Hence, creation of the Universe requires God was outside it, and incidentally, that it didn't already exist.

The only model that satisfies this necessary condition is the Big Bang Theory.

 

This is the point of my question and seeking answers to it. To show it is and always was God for how we got here. No big bang anything and no he’s not there anything. God is and always was even before anything and before nothing.

Okay, I think I way....over thought this. Sorry. ( I sometimes sound like Sheldon Cooper )

Who's Sheldon Cooper ? I have the feeling that it involves the TV show entitled "Big Bang Theory", which, thankfully, I have never watched a complete episode of. Thus my brain remains untrammeled and unsullied. :D

Well, getting back to the Real World again, the Big Bang Theory is in fact the greatest scientific evidence for the existence of God that can possibly be devised.

Edited by Stargazer
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My take is one that a lot of people can't grasp.  There never was a before it has always been.  I know that is a hard concept to get ones mind around and I am not sure it can bee done completely but I have gotten to the point that I am comfortable with it.

 

With the bolded sentence you single-handedly demolish the doctrine of Eternal Progression.  If you read my reply to LOSTONE perhaps you can see why.

 

Eternal Progression absolutely requires change.  It destroys stability.  It tears up the prevailing wisdom.  It has no truck with immobility.  God took numberless Intelligences and made them into Spirits, whereupon He made them into mortal Souls.  After that, they will all become immortal Souls, with all but a very few becoming Beings of Glory.  And He will make some of them into Exalted Beings.  These Exalted Beings will go on to do what they saw the Father do, and thus the cycle will repeat.  Forever and ever.  As He says himself: Worlds Without End. 

 

That is the only "it has always been" that exists.  Not the one that you're thinking of, sorry about that.

 

Well, unless I've missed YOUR point.  It's happened before that I misconstrued what someone meant.  I imagine that you can set me straight if I have.

Edited by Stargazer
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You don't realize how much power you're giving up by denying the Big Bang. I am going to suggest that you get ahold of the book, Why Science Does Not Disprove God by Amir Aczel.  There's a lot there which ought to be help you understand why the Big Bang is the best thing since sliced bread when it comes to destroying atheist arguments which try to bring physics to bear in support of atheism.  The Big Bang is an important part of that.

 

Hah. The Big Bang Theory is indeed a theory. And so is the Theory of Gravitation. Yet I don't believe you can discount gravity just because it is a theory. You need to examine the word "theory" and understand what it means. It does NOT mean something that we have groundless faith in. And if you've researched the Big Bang and have concluded that it is false, well, you're deluding yourself. The Big Bang is so true that there isn't a lot else that is just as true. The theory satisfies virtually all the conditions which we have observed and calculated. It is so thoroughly accepted that there is NO other theory of the genesis of the Universe that has any traction whatsoever.

 

The only other theory concerning the genesis of the Universe is the Steady State Theory (SST). That theory says that the Universe has existed forever in the same state it is in now, and will continue to exist forever in the same state. Well, if the SST is true then the entire notion of the existence of God goes right out the window. You cannot say that God created the Universe if the Universe always existed. Both ideas are mutually exclusive.

So, if you insist upon SST, then Atheism triumphs. There is in fact no NEED for God in a Steady State Universe.

Well, there might be a need, but there's no compelling need to believe there's a God if things have always been the way they are and will stay that way forever and anon.

Another important point is this: in order to have created the Universe, by necessity God must have been outside it at the time, or, more to the point, just before He created it, it cannot have existed! This is a matter of extreme importance! For, if he was inside it, then it must have already existed. And if it already existed, then He cannot have created it. Hence, creation of the Universe requires God was outside it, and incidentally, that it didn't already exist.

The only model that satisfies this necessary condition is the Big Bang Theory.

 

Who's Sheldon Cooper ? I have the feeling that it involves the TV show entitled "Big Bang Theory", which, thankfully, I have never watched a complete episode of. Thus my brain remains untrammeled and unsullied. :D

Well, getting back to the Real World again, the Big Bang Theory is in fact the greatest scientific evidence for the existence of God that can possibly be devised.

I have researched and studied the big bang in depth and concluded it's lacking foundation and actually does go against God being the creator of everything. I have invested time and thought and need to give no more to this matter at this time. Thanks anyways,

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With the bolded sentence you single-handedly demolish the doctrine of Eternal Progression.  If you read my reply to LOSTONE perhaps you can see why.

 

Eternal Progression absolutely requires change.  It destroys stability.  It tears up the prevailing wisdom.  It has no truck with immobility.  God took numberless Intelligences and made them into Spirits, whereupon He made them into mortal Souls.  After that, they will all become immortal Souls, with all but a very few becoming Beings of Glory.  And He will make some of them into Exalted Beings.  These Exalted Beings will go on to do what they saw the Father do, and thus the cycle will repeat.  Forever and ever.  As He says himself: Worlds Without End. 

 

That is the only "it has always been" that exists.  Not the one that you're thinking of, sorry about that.

 

Well, unless I've missed YOUR point.  It's happened before that I misconstrued what someone meant.  I imagine that you can set me straight if I have.

 

Okay what was before God?  What was before intelligences?  They have always been therefore there has never been a before.

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Okay what was before God?  What was before intelligences?  They have always been therefore there has never been a before.

 

A better answer is "we don't know what, if anything was before God". Largely because we have yet to establish what if anything is before some independent/floating point on a time line. IE; If you start your time line at say 6000 years BP then nothing existed before then. A present we have no way of knowing what if anything existed before the Big Bang. But we're working on it.

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A better answer is "we don't know what, if anything was before God". Largely because we have yet to establish what if anything is before some independent/floating point on a time line. IE; If you start your time line at say 6000 years BP then nothing existed before then. A present we have no way of knowing what if anything existed before the Big Bang. But we're working on it.

 

The question was:  What comes before nothing? By revelation God has always been and intelligences have always been so there was never a point where there was nothing.  Now if you want to talk about a specific creation, our solar system for instance, there very well could have been a time of nothing pertaining to it.  I have no problem with that but it can not be a generalization.

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The question was:  What comes before nothing? By revelation God has always been and intelligences have always been so there was never a point where there was nothing.  Now if you want to talk about a specific creation, our solar system for instance, there very well could have been a time of nothing pertaining to it.  I have no problem with that but it can not be a generalization.

 

Which ones; the Christian Gods, the Hindu Gods, the Norse Gods? Buddhists don't have a personal God, but believe in a type of after this life. Atheists don't have any Gods, or after death type existence. Ancient Greeks understood time as a series of circles. So that in the Homeric tales the heroes come back after long journeys no older than they left. Personally I subscribe to the idea that while time doesn't repeat itself it does rhyme. That at some time in the future(Hopefully not too soon) I'll stand before my God and account for how I spent my time.

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Okay what was before God?  What was before intelligences?  They have always been therefore there has never been a before.

 

Does it matter what was before God?  Is it even a question that can be asked?  All I am saying is that God pre-existed the Universe that we see through our eyes and our telescopes, and that He created it at a definite moment in time approximately 13.8 billion years ago.  Obviously God had to have been in existence before this event, because He caused it!  And it does not matter whether God always existed (making your first question unanswerable) for this to be the case.  And we've been told that intelligences have always existed, too.  But this Universe, in the form we see it, did not always exist.  It was called into being by God, and the result of that calling into being is the event scientists have labelled The Big Bang.

 

What you see as an infinitely extensive Universe is in fact a bubble of Space-Time that exists within a Superuniverse where God dwells.  We cannot see that Superuniverse, but God sees all of the Universe He created at once, and at all times, as if everything had already happened within it. 

 

This "Superuniverse" is my own terminology, by the way.  Science doesn't address the cosmology of what's outside our Universe, simply because it cannot be seen by us, or detected in any way.

 

Your statement that there has never been a before is in fact a bald denial that the Creation ever happened.  If there has never been a before, then the stars, all of them, have been burning since forever, using up their hydrogen, yet never losing any.  Yet the heavens are in anything but a steady state.  There are new stars being born out there -- we're observing them! -- and old stars blowing up spewing heavy elements in every direction.  We can determine that our 4.5 billion year old sun used to be cooler than it is now, and over time will get hotter and hotter.  It's using up hydrogen at a prodigous rate. 

 

We can clearly see that most galaxies are rushing away from us at tremendous speeds (one exception is the Andromeda galaxy, with which we are on a collision course), and that is cast-iron evidence that the Universe is expanding.  If it is expanding, then it must once have all been concentrated in one spot. 

 

In fact, the Universe is expanding at an accelerated rate!  It's getting bigger at a faster rate now than it did when it was born!  This is amazing, and nobody knows quite why.

 

Every observation we have been able to make of the Universe supports the notion that the Universe is expanding and is radiating outward from a spot of concentration where it all used to be, 13.8 billion years ago.  And that 13.8 billion years ago is when the Creation occurred.

 

And like I said, God pre-existed that event, which should be obvious because to cause it come to pass He had to exist beforehand.  Otherwise, the Universe is co-eternal with God, and He cannot have created it.  And then we can't call Him the Creator.

Edited by Stargazer
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