Religious Freedom Forum Fireside

[rockpond]

In our type of government coupled with the Constitution, it only works in a morally sound society. It is not made for an immoral society. We elect leaders based off of their religious/moral convictions and beliefs. That is important. We must have morals in society. Often those morals are based off of ones religious background. Its the way it is and the way it should be. The problem you propose is that if we just throw out morals from legislation then it leads t the problem of legislating immorality which in the end would wrongfully protect immoral acts in society. For instance- suppose that you have a bad set of judges who are immoral in their lives and conduct and they see fit to legislate bringing pornographic videos, magazines, etc, into the public school teaching system. What then protects my children from being exposed to material I see as "filth"?

The problem you see is that we do have morals and we must have such defined in society. Homosexuality is still, in large part, considered "immoral" when people act in such manners in society. People can elect different leaders that best represent their beliefs but it still remains paramount that in general, the basic morals of society should still be upheld.

If, using your example, judges decide to require porn in public schools you have the religious freedom of removing your kids from the school and placing them in a private or public charter school.

You also have the religious freedom of never having to enter into a gay marriage.

But why is it that if someone in my family was gay and joined a church that accepted gay marriage, that they should be denied that ability? How is their religious freedom being protected? It is immoral under your set of beliefs but not for a majority of Americans. Why do you get to decide what is moral and then base religious freedom on that standard?

[Rob Osborn]

If, using your example, judges decide to require porn in public schools you have the religious freedom of removing your kids from the school and placing them in a private or public charter school.

You also have the religious freedom of never having to enter into a gay marriage.

But why is it that if someone in my family was gay and joined a church that accepted gay marriage, that they should be denied that ability? How is their religious freedom being protected? It is immoral under your set of beliefs but not for a majority of Americans. Why do you get to decide what is moral and then base religious freedom on that standard?

Religious freedom does not mean the right to legislate immorality and impose immorality on society. Religious freedom is closely tied to a generalized acceptance of what is morally correct and spiritually sacred.

Under your views, disregarding morality, it would be possible to legislate everything from legalizing child pornography to rape and incest protection laws.

[california boy]

Yep. And if the majority in a Christian based community decide to erect a 10 commandment monument they should be allowed to do so.

 

Maybe those fine christians should worry more about keeping the commandments then erecting monuments.

[Rob Osborn]

Maybe those fine christians should worry more about keeping the commandments then erecting monuments.

Perhaps so, but they still have the right to erect such monument if they wish.

[thesometimesaint]

Perhaps so, but they still have the right to erect such monument if they wish.

 

Not on my tax dollar they don't.

[The Nehor]

The importance of having a faith based community comes into play here in our democracy. Generally, we allow that which we deem as useful and moral in publicly owned places. Having a satanic group erect a monument which represent such a small minority nad which runs counter to known morality is not the answer and why we decide not to erect such filth.

Actually the so-called Christian Right and the Church of Satan actually agree on quite a bit.

[rockpond]

Religious freedom does not mean the right to legislate immorality and impose immorality on society. Religious freedom is closely tied to a generalized acceptance of what is morally correct and spiritually sacred.

Under your views, disregarding morality, it would be possible to legislate everything from legalizing child pornography to rape and incest protection laws.

 

As CV75 has explained, and I agree with, there has to be some limits to expression of religious freedom out of concern for the public interest.  I think you and I both agree that the line is drawn well before we get to things like child porn, rape, and incest.

 

But why should the line be drawn that prohibits the expression of religious freedom when it comes to gay marriage?

[thesometimesaint]

We go to great lengths to avoid the simple injunction of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

Edited January 15, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[Rob Osborn]

As CV75 has explained, and I agree with, there has to be some limits to expression of religious freedom out of concern for the public interest.  I think you and I both agree that the line is drawn well before we get to things like child porn, rape, and incest.

 

But why should the line be drawn that prohibits the expression of religious freedom when it comes to gay marriage?

Because gay marriage is counterproductive and harmful to society. Studies have shown that children fare best in society when they are raised in a traditional family.

[Rob Osborn]

Actually the so-called Christian Right and the Church of Satan actually agree on quite a bit.

um....not so much.

[The Nehor]

um....not so much.

Do you even know what the tenets of most Satanist/Luciferian churches are to be able to make that judgement?

[Rob Osborn]

Do you even know what the tenets of most Satanist/Luciferian churches are to be able to make that judgement?

Yeah, they are after what satisfies the lusts of the flesh- that the body and its desires are a law unto themselves. Satanism is about fulfilling ones pleasure.

[Rob Osborn]

The Nine Satanic Statements

by Anton Szandor LaVey

The Nine Satanic Statements originally appeared in The Satanic Bible, © 1969

1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!
2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!
5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!
6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!
7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!
8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!

[The Nehor]

Yeah, they are after what satisfies the lusts of the flesh- that the body and its desires are a law unto themselves. Satanism is about fulfilling ones pleasure.

Which is Ayn Rand's philosophy. So why did you disagree?

[rockpond]

Because gay marriage is counterproductive and harmful to society. Studies have shown that children fare best in society when they are raised in a traditional family.

 

And some studies show that children raised by gay parents fare the same as those raised by straight parents.  I'd say, at this point, it's inconclusive at best... and yet you are still in favor of limiting the religious freedom of those who believe in gay marriage.

[Rob Osborn]

And some studies show that children raised by gay parents fare the same as those raised by straight parents.  I'd say, at this point, it's inconclusive at best... and yet you are still in favor of limiting the religious freedom of those who believe in gay marriage.

The studies you read are wrong, plain and simple. I will do everything in my power to defend traditional families which is Gods plan. Satans plan is to destroy the family. SSM is part of Satans plan.

[rockpond]

The studies you read are wrong, plain and simple.

 

Ahhh... well if you say so!  

[rockpond]

I will do everything in my power to defend traditional families which is Gods plan. Satans plan is to destroy the family. SSM is part of Satans plan.

 

You should consider documenting your position in your journal so that your grandkids and great-grandkids can see how attitudes and doctrines in the church will have changed over time.

[Rob Osborn]

Which is Ayn Rand's philosophy. So why did you disagree?

I am not a Ayn Rand follower nor believer of her atheism  and disbelief of faith.

[Rob Osborn]

You should consider documenting your position in your journal so that your grandkids and great-grandkids can see how attitudes and doctrines in the church will have changed over time.

More like, see how some doctrines never change in world that is always changing into an immoral abyss.

[The Nehor]

I am not a Ayn Rand follower nor believer of her atheism  and disbelief of faith.

I was not comparing the Church of Satan follower to you. Please pay attention.

[Rob Osborn]

I was not comparing the Church of Satan follower to you. Please pay attention.

Okay, spell it out then.

[The Nehor]

Actually the so-called Christian Right and the Church of Satan actually agree on quite a bit.

This is what I said. Your name is nowhere in that comparison.

[Rob Osborn]

This is what I said. Your name is nowhere in that comparison.

Not sure what you are saying but Ayn Rand's philosophy is not Christian.

[The Nehor]

Not sure what you are saying but Ayn Rand's philosophy is not Christian.

And I did not say that either.