Church And State

[Rob Osborn]

The first Constitutional Convention debated the issue of religious liberty. Their response of Luther Martin, a Maryland delegate, later reported that some felt it “would be at least decent to hold out some distinction between the professors of Christianity and downright infidelity or paganism.” But, as Martin noted, the article’s language was approved “by a great majority . . . without much debate.” The Christian nation argument just wasn’t persuasive.

 

James Madison who wrote much our Constitution also wrote “The notion of a Christian commonwealth should be exploded forever.” wasn't an Atheist.

 

George Washington who wrote the letter to Touro Synagogue (1790). In this letter, Washington assures America’s Jews that they would enjoy complete religious liberty—not mere toleration—in the new nation. He outlines a vision not of a Christian nation but of a multi-faith society where all are free to practice as they will. The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for giving to Mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection, should demean themselves as good citizens. He wasn't an Atheist.

 

John Adams In February of 1756, Adams wrote in his diary about a discussion he had had with a man named Major Greene. Greene was a devout Christian who sought to persuade Adams to adopt conservative Christian views. The two argued over the divinity of Jesus. When questioned on the matter, Greene fell back on an old standby: some matters of theology are too complex and mysterious for human understanding.

Adams was not impressed. In his diary he writes, “Thus mystery is made a convenient cover for absurdity.” He also signed the Treaty of Tripoli. He wasn't an Atheist,

 

Thomas Jefferson who wrote

An Act for establishing religious Freedom. Virginia Statue for Religious Liberty,

Whereas, Almighty God hath created the mind free;

That all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens, or by civil incapacitations tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and therefore are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, who being Lord, both of body and mind yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do,

That the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavouring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time;

That to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions, which he disbelieves is sinful and tyrannical;

That even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor, whose morals he would make his pattern, and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness, and is withdrawing from the Ministry those temporary rewards, which, proceeding from an approbation of their personal conduct are an additional incitement to earnest and unremitting labours for the instruction of mankind;

That our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions any more than our opinions in physics or geometry,

That therefore the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence, by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion, is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages, to which, in common with his fellow citizens, he has a natural right,

That it tends only to corrupt the principles of that very Religion it is meant to encourage, by bribing with a monopoly of worldly honours and emoluments those who will externally profess and conform to it;

That though indeed, these are criminal who do not withstand such temptation, yet neither are those innocent who lay the bait in their way;

That to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy which at once destroys all religious liberty because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own;

That it is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government, for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order;

And finally, that Truth is great, and will prevail if left to herself, that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict, unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons free argument and debate, errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them:

Be it enacted by General Assembly that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of Religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge or affect their civil capacities. And though we well know that this Assembly elected by the people for the ordinary purposes of Legislation only, have no power to restrain the acts of succeeding Assemblies constituted with powers equal to our own, and that therefore to declare this act irrevocable would be of no effect in law; yet we are free to declare, and do declare that the rights hereby asserted, are of the natural rights of mankind, and that if any act shall be hereafter passed to repeal the present or to narrow its operation, such act will be an infringement of natural right.wasn't an Atheist.

Alexander Hamilton who wrote in “Federalist No. 69,” religious duties of the U.S. president: There aren’t any. In this essay, Hamilton explains how the American president would differ from the English king, outlining several key differences between the two. He writes: “The one has no particle of spiritual jurisdiction; the other is the supreme head and governor of the national church!” He wasn't an Atheist.

 

And BTW another Founder Thomas Paine was an Atheist. He just wrote the philosophical justification for the American Revolution

 

All of them argued for the separation of Church and State. The US Constitution itself prohibits ANY religious test for public office/service. It also prohibits congress from making any law RESPECTING an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

 

The Founders were well aware of the religious wars and persecutions that had rocked Europe for hundreds of years, add in the Divine Right of Kings. They wanted no part of that. Further more I've used the Founders own statements. Believe me I've got plenty more.

So, Is this more of Rob Boston's jargon? You do know he knows absolutely nothing about our founders and is a humanist and atheist dont you?

[Uncle Dale]

Wouldn't it be more correct to say that Canada was founded as a Christian nation?

After all, they kept the state church (brought over from England) in place long after

such ideas had vanished in the country south of them.

 

And as late as the Commonwealth period, paid at least token fealty to the titular

head of the Church of England as Sovereign.

 

Yet, we rarely hear arguments up north of the border, as to whether or not God

intended that nation to put the Bible at the head of its foundational documents

and the Christian Cross (of St. George, * if not of St. Andrew) forever on its flag.

 

 

 

???

 

UD

 

* Trivia fact for history buffs -- the original "stars and bars" battle flag of the

Confederacy featured the vertical cross of St.George as its distinguishing 

symbol. A handful of Jewish dignitaries took exception, and when the flag

was taken up by all the regiments, the slanted St. Andrew cross was used --

a slightly less exclusively Christian emblem, in a rebel nation whom many

believed remained more faithful to its religion than the yankee Union.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[Rob Osborn]

Mayflower Compact : 1620

Agreement Between the Settlers at New Plymouth : 1620

IN THE NAME OF GOD, AMEN. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, &c. Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a Voyage to plant the first Colony in the northern Parts of Virginia; Do by these Presents, solemnly and mutually, in the Presence of God and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid: And by Virtue hereof do enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions, and Officers, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general Good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due Submission and Obedience. IN WITNESS whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape-Cod the eleventh of November, in the Reign of our Sovereign Lord King James, of England, France, and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth, Anno Domini; 1620.Mayflower Compact : 1620

Edited February 6, 2015 by Rob Osborn

[Uncle Dale]

Mayflower Compact : 1620

Agreement Between the Settlers at New Plymouth : 1620

IN THE NAME OF GOD, AMEN. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, &c. Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a Voyage to plant the first Colony in the northern Parts of Virginia; Do by these Presents, solemnly and mutually, in the Presence of God and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid: And by Virtue hereof do enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions, and Officers, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general Good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due Submission and Obedience. IN WITNESS whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape-Cod the eleventh of November, in the Reign of our Sovereign Lord King James, of England, France, and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth, Anno Domini; 1620.Mayflower Compact : 1620

 

Some modern Christian dominionists would no doubt profess

that the disestablishment of the Congregational Church in

Massachusetts was the beginning of the end of God's favor

for what has since become the United States of America.

 

And, perhaps they are justified in that opinion. Had the

Calvinists taken over the entire northern continent, we

might guess that today there would be no arguments over

whether or not America was meant to be a Christian nation.

 

UD

[Stargazer]

If I may be permitted an opinion without dragging in quotations from Founding Fathers...

The United States was (and probably still is) a Christian nation.

The fact that Founding Fathers and many many others in the early and even later days of the Republic constantly quoted scripture and invoked the Divine in their official and unofficial speeches, acts and actions should make this abundantly clear.

But it is also a fact that the Founding Fathers and many many others in the early and even later days of the Republic did not make any religious tradition into a national church, and did not generally get into the face of anyone's religious practice unless it went beyond the bounds of community standards.

Thus the United States is a Christian nation with a secular government.

[Rob Osborn]

If I may be permitted an opinion without dragging in quotations from Founding Fathers...The United States was (and probably still is) a Christian nation.The fact that Founding Fathers and many many others in the early and even later days of the Republic constantly quoted scripture and invoked the Divine in their official and unofficial speeches, acts and actions should make this abundantly clear.But it is also a fact that the Founding Fathers and many many others in the early and even later days of the Republic did not make any religious tradition into a national church, and did not generally get into the face of anyone's religious practice unless it went beyond the bounds of community standards.Thus the United States is a Christian nation with a secular government.

I agree. I might also add that roughly 80% of Americans identify themselves as Christian. http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

[KevinG]

We do have a secular government.  While that government was framed and started by a plurality of Christians, with Christian principles and religions certainly influencing its creation (with some Iroquois Confederation and English common law thrown in for good measure),  it accommodates a wide variety of beliefs and religions quite nicely.  That created the conditions under which the restoration of the Gospel could flourish.

 

We as Mormons should be very grateful that we are not under a formally Christian government.  

[thesometimesaint]

If I may be permitted an opinion without dragging in quotations from Founding Fathers...

The United States was (and probably still is) a Christian nation.

The fact that Founding Fathers and many many others in the early and even later days of the Republic constantly quoted scripture and invoked the Divine in their official and unofficial speeches, acts and actions should make this abundantly clear.

But it is also a fact that the Founding Fathers and many many others in the early and even later days of the Republic did not make any religious tradition into a national church, and did not generally get into the face of anyone's religious practice unless it went beyond the bounds of community standards.

Thus the United States is a Christian nation with a secular government.

 

Many of the Founders were Deists not Christians at all, or nominally Christian or Agnostic like Franklin. One very famous one that I know of was the Atheist Thomas Paine. That is the marvel of the US Constitution. It was that is written by at least nominally religious men there is not a shred of religion in it.

 

The sticky wicket comes in who gets to decide which Christian sect is the one that has the force of law. To the Catholic Sect the LDS aren't Christian. To Evangelical Christians Catholics and LDS aren't Christian. To some Protestants no one but themselves are Christian. I won't get into Hindus, Jews, Sikhs, Buddhists, Muslims, and all the rest of non-Christians. Are they also not entitled to the rights of full citizenship in the US?

[thesometimesaint]

We do have a secular government.  While that government was framed and started by a plurality of Christians, with Christian principles and religions certainly influencing its creation (with some Iroquois Confederation and English common law thrown in for good measure),  it accommodates a wide variety of beliefs and religions quite nicely.  That created the conditions under which the restoration of the Gospel could flourish.

 

We as Mormons should be very grateful that we are not under a formally Christian government.  

 

We had more than enough problems with Christians that weren't in the government.

[thesometimesaint]

I agree. I might also add that roughly 80% of Americans identify themselves as Christian. http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

 

That Mayflower Compact was written by 14 men who were fleeing the Christian nation of England.

 

Our not so good friends at AFA don't believe we are Christians.

[Rob Osborn]

That Mayflower Compact was written by 14 men who were fleeing the Christian nation of England.

 

Our not so good friends at AFA don't believe we are Christians.

They came to America to freely worship Christianity.

[The Nehor]

They came to America to freely worship Christianity.

Then they are going to hell for idolatry.

[Uncle Dale]

Then they are going to hell for idolatry.

 

Oh, I suppose some folks have been worshiping Christianity

as far back as Constantine the Great, at least.

 

A step beyond simply worshiping crucifixes, and icons of the

Blessed Saints, no doubt -- but enough to raise the ire of

more than one radical Puritan.

 

I wonder if our modern Christian dominionists realize that a

return to the Salem of witch-hunting days would also involve

a return to an era in which celebrating Christmas would have

been grounds for excommunication, and decorating an Easter

prayer-meeting with lilies might lead to the dunking-chair?

 

Happy folks, those patrons of Cromwell were.

 

Though, we might also recall that the Plymouth Pilgrims were

actually the Liberals of their day, and it was their stricter,

more Calvin-devoted brethren who stoned Quakers to death.

 

One good thing about having the Puritans take over America,

however -- there would be no giant cross erected atop the

White House or the Capitol dome. Can't say the same for the

intentions of a Joel Osteen advocate...

 

(Maybe just a simple, undecorated chanukah bush -- if I kept

it out of sight and did not let the Morality Police know...???)

 

UD

[thesometimesaint]

They came to America to freely worship Christianity.

 

No. they came to America to freely worship their version of Christianity. Others weren't so fortunate.

SEE Roger Williams In 1636, Roger Williams, after being banished from the Massachusetts Bay Colony for his religious views.

Roger Williams (c. 1603 – between January and March 1683) was an English Protestant theologian who was an early proponent of religious freedom and the separation of church and state. In 1636, he began the colony of Providence Plantation, which provided a refuge for religious minorities.

[thesometimesaint]

Then they are going to hell for idolatry.

 

And Bundling Boards.

http://www.history.org/foundation/journal/holiday07/court.cfm

[Rob Osborn]

No. they came to America to freely worship their version of Christianity. Others weren't so fortunate.

SEE Roger Williams In 1636, Roger Williams, after being banished from the Massachusetts Bay Colony for his religious views.

Roger Williams (c. 1603 – between January and March 1683) was an English Protestant theologian who was an early proponent of religious freedom and the separation of church and state. In 1636, he began the colony of Providence Plantation, which provided a refuge for religious minorities.

Look, I am flat out tired of arguing every dang little point with you. The whole free world knows that this country was founded upon a Christian background with the people seeing Christ as the ultimate lawgiver. And, as majority does rule, we are a Christian nation (as a people). So please, lets stop debating this ridiculousness.

[The Nehor]

Look, I am flat out tired of arguing every dang little point with you. The whole free world knows that this country was founded upon a Christian background with the people seeing Christ as the ultimate lawgiver. And, as majority does rule, we are a Christian nation (as a people). So please, lets stop debating this ridiculousness.

Actually if you are LDS it was founded by followers of abominable creeds who did not have the gospel of Jesus Christ and therefore we are a satanic nation.

Which is kind of cool.

[Rob Osborn]

BTW, the whole "separation of church and state" is an atheist/humanist political move to remove God from the public and make it unlawful to utter such in public and I will fight them and their followers with every energy of my soul!

[Rob Osborn]

No. they came to America to freely worship their version of Christianity. Others weren't so fortunate.

SEE Roger Williams In 1636, Roger Williams, after being banished from the Massachusetts Bay Colony for his religious views.

Roger Williams (c. 1603 – between January and March 1683) was an English Protestant theologian who was an early proponent of religious freedom and the separation of church and state. In 1636, he began the colony of Providence Plantation, which provided a refuge for religious minorities.

I have a great grandfather(William Pynchon) that wrote the first book to be banned and burned in America. Its not that they got things perfect (they didnt) but the point is they came here to worship in religious freedom being a Christian peoples.

[thesometimesaint]

Look, I am flat out tired of arguing every dang little point with you. The whole free world knows that this country was founded upon a Christian background with the people seeing Christ as the ultimate lawgiver. And, as majority does rule, we are a Christian nation (as a people). So please, lets stop debating this ridiculousness.

 

Then stop making demonstrably false statements. The whole free world doesn't know it because Europe was founded on Christian principles. Like the Divine Right of Kings.  The US is founded on the principle of "We The People" decide. Not God, Popes, Archbishops, Prophets, or Minister of religion.

 

Many of our Founders were Deists. God made the earth then walked away from it and takes no interest in us or what we do.

 

Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams were Deists. Thomas Jefferson rewrote the Bible and removed all reference to God and/or the divinity of Christ. To Thomas Jefferson Jesus was just a good story teller and had a few good ideas. He was a prominent Founder. Thomas Paine was a Atheist another prominent Founder.

 

Ben Franklin was Agnostic from the age of 10 another prominent Founder.

 

If you want I can go down the list of our prominent, and the not so prominent, of our nations Founders and each and every one deny that we were ever a Christian nation or that they wanted us to become one.

 

The majority doesn't rule in matters of religion in the US. "Congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of religion" We are individually free to worship or not worship as we please.

 

You keep throwing out the old Ad Hominem about me referencing Atheists like it's some talisman against me. Well here is one you may be familiar with.

SEE LDS Articles of Faith #11  We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

[thesometimesaint]

I have a great grandfather(William Pynchon) that wrote the first book to be banned and burned in America. Its not that they got things perfect (they didnt) but the point is they came here to worship in religious freedom being a Christian peoples.

 

I never said a great many weren't Christian. Unfortunately the Founders were well aware that Christians have a long and ignoble history of banning and burning a lot more than just books. The Founder true genius was that despite their many and varied faiths and sects they crafted a government that was answerable to the people. 

SEE http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Americas-Founding-Fathers-and-Judaism

Edited February 6, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[Uncle Dale]

Actually if you are LDS it was founded by followers of abominable creeds who did not have the gospel of Jesus Christ and therefore we are a satanic nation.

Which is kind of cool.

 

 

Oh -- the U.S. Constitution is sacred scripture -- it was just

written by the knowing hirelings of Satan. Since that same

Satan once was progressed high enough to be seated at

the Council of the Gods, he no doubt can produce holy writ

as authentic as that of Mormon, Moroni, or Moriancumer.

 

However, no need to entrust Constitution compilation to the

"Lord of the Air," nor even to the "Tall, Dark Man from Boston."

If Balaam's talking donkey can issue forth divine revelation,

then so can Tom Jefferson (or Tom Paine, for that matter).

 

A quotation (probably apocryphal) has Brigham Young telling 

his troops of 1858 that it was not the U. S. Government they

were to be fighting, but "all those dam_ed rascals who run it."

A line as appropriate in 2014 Nevada ranchlands, as in the

19th century aftermath of saintly treasons, prayerful mountain

massacres, and pious lootings of federal supply trains.

 

UD

[KevinG]

Interesting history... Let's bring it back to the present. What is the proper role of xpchirch and state today given our pluralistic society? What about groups that want to establish theocracies in miniature (sharia)?

How about clashes over religious views (taxpayer funded abortions)?

What are the principles that allow us to coexist today and remain free to worship?

[The Nehor]

BTW, the whole "separation of church and state" is an atheist/humanist political move to remove God from the public and make it unlawful to utter such in public and I will fight them and their followers with every energy of my soul!

Curse those founding fathers for being atheist/humanists and putting in that accursed First Amendment.

[The Nehor]

Oh -- the U.S. Constitution is sacred scripture -- it was just

written by the knowing hirelings of Satan. Since that same

Satan once was progressed high enough to be seated at

the Council of the Gods, he no doubt can produce holy writ

as authentic as that of Mormon, Moroni, or Moriancumer.

 

However, no need to entrust Constitution compilation to the

"Lord of the Air," nor even to the "Tall, Dark Man from Boston."

If Balaam's talking donkey can issue forth divine revelation,

then so can Tom Jefferson (or Tom Paine, for that matter).

 

A quotation (probably apocryphal) has Brigham Young telling 

his troops of 1858 that it was not the U. S. Government they

were to be fighting, but "all those dam_ed rascals who run it."

A line as appropriate in 2014 Nevada ranchlands, as in the

19th century aftermath of saintly treasons, prayerful mountain

massacres, and pious lootings of federal supply trains.

 

UD

Yeah, my great great grandfather left his two wives to piously burn wagons. In his journal he recounts the officer in charge of the wagons begging him to refrain but responding that not to do so would be turning on his people and his God.

No, I do not actually believe the Constitution is satanic. It is a mostly terrestrial document intended to minister to a Telestial people and keep themselves from screwing up too badly. Many of the founders were quite cynical about people in general. They seemed to see voters not as enlightened citizens making wise choices but more as brigands the Constitution had to check so they would stop pillaging each other.