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Many of the Founders were Deists not Christians at all, or nominally Christian or Agnostic like Franklin. One very famous one that I know of was the Atheist Thomas Paine. That is the marvel of the US Constitution. It was that is written by at least nominally religious men there is not a shred of religion in it.

I don't know why this is even slightly important. Franklin, Jefferson and Paine might not have been conventional Christians, but the majority of the FF were. Every meeting of the Continental Congress began with Christian prayer, and nobody objected, even the Deists. It is a cast-iron fact that 99% or more of the inhabitants of the Colonies and the United States were at the very least nominal Christians.

The Constitution might not have any overt religious content, but it grew out of the religious principles held by those who put it together.

 

The sticky wicket comes in who gets to decide which Christian sect is the one that has the force of law. To the Catholic Sect the LDS aren't Christian. To Evangelical Christians Catholics and LDS aren't Christian. To some Protestants no one but themselves are Christian. I won't get into Hindus, Jews, Sikhs, Buddhists, Muslims, and all the rest of non-Christians. Are they also not entitled to the rights of full citizenship in the US?

There is no sticky wicket. No Christian sect has or should have the force of law, even if Christian principles inherently inform our laws.

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Then stop making demonstrably false statements. The whole free world doesn't know it because Europe was founded on Christian principles. Like the Divine Right of Kings.  The US is founded on the principle of "We The People" decide. Not God, Popes, Archbishops, Prophets, or Minister of religion.

 

Many of our Founders were Deists. God made the earth then walked away from it and takes no interest in us or what we do.

 

Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams were Deists. Thomas Jefferson rewrote the Bible and removed all reference to God and/or the divinity of Christ. To Thomas Jefferson Jesus was just a good story teller and had a few good ideas. He was a prominent Founder. Thomas Paine was a Atheist another prominent Founder.

 

Ben Franklin was Agnostic from the age of 10 another prominent Founder.

 

If you want I can go down the list of our prominent, and the not so prominent, of our nations Founders and each and every one deny that we were ever a Christian nation or that they wanted us to become one.

 

The majority doesn't rule in matters of religion in the US. "Congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of religion" We are individually free to worship or not worship as we please.

 

You keep throwing out the old Ad Hominem about me referencing Atheists like it's some talisman against me. Well here is one you may be familiar with.

SEE LDS Articles of Faith #11  We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Whatever, believe your humanist approach, I dont care

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"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_Orders_of_Connecticut#Text

"For as much as it hath pleased Almighty God by the wise disposition of his divine providence so to order and dispose of things that we the Inhabitants and Residents of Windsor, Hartford and Wethersfield are now cohabiting and dwelling in and upon the River of Connectecotte and the lands thereunto adjoining; and well knowing where a people are gathered together the word of God requires that to maintain the peace and union of such a people there should be an orderly and decent Government established according to God, to order and dispose of the affairs of the people at all seasons as occasion shall require; do therefore associate and conjoin ourselves to be as one Public State or Commonwealth; and do for ourselves and our successors and such as shall be adjoined to us at any time hereafter, enter into Combination and Confederation together, to maintain and preserve the liberty and purity of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus which we now profess, as also, the discipline of the Churches, which according to the truth of the said Gospel is now practiced amongst us; as also in our civil affairs to be guided and governed according to such Laws, Rules, Orders and Decrees as shall be made, ordered, and decreed as followeth:"

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...Many of the founders were quite cynical about people in general.

...

 

Ah, yes -- the Federalists.

 

I have a feeling that they are still lurking about, atop

Wall Street banking skyscrapers and on the Jamestown,

Rhode Island, Country Club links. Maybe a couple of 

them seated in the Governor's box at the Kentucky Derby.

 

At least they got their well organized state and county

militias written into the founding document -- located

near enough to their indigo plantations to put down

any "bondsmen's" intransigence. -- Church of England

Brits and lowland Scots, amidst the untrustworthy,

unwashed Baptists and apostate Presbyterians.

 

Let's restore the State Church of Virginia, and see if

we can entice any of them out of hiding...

 

UD

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It is a cast-iron fact that 99% or more of the inhabitants of the Colonies and the United States were at the very least nominal Christians.

By 'inhabitants', I assume you mean 'white inhabitants'. That's alright....many of the Christians you refer to wouldn't have counted them either.
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Ah, yes -- the Federalists.

I have a feeling that they are still lurking about, atop

Wall Street banking skyscrapers and on the Jamestown,

Rhode Island, Country Club links. Maybe a couple of

them seated in the Governor's box at the Kentucky Derby.

At least they got their well organized state and county

militias written into the founding document -- located

near enough to their indigo plantations to put down

any "bondsmen's" intransigence. -- Church of England

Brits and lowland Scots, amidst the untrustworthy,

unwashed Baptists and apostate Presbyterians.

Let's restore the State Church of Virginia, and see if

we can entice any of them out of hiding...UD

Both the Federalists and, more especially, the Anti-Federalists were prone to, as Nephi would say, not trust in the arm of flesh. They knew by keen observation that mankind was not a race of angelic beings, so they eventually produced the Constitution of the United States (the Anti-Federalists by default) as an antidote. The Anti-Federalists wanted the Constitution to be written with totally non-ambiguous language, while the Federalists naively thought future generations couldn't possibly misconstrue the expression "promote the general welfare" to be interpreted as a chart blanch for the central government to establish tyranny in the name of compassion.

Sadly, at least as far as I'm concerned, the Anti-Federalists turned out to be the faction with the greater foresight because limited Constitutional government is no longer practiced in the United States, the Constitution now being esteemed as little more than a "quaint relic" from the past that is now largely ignored. As far as I'm concerned, the Founding Fathers were inspired of God, but the victorious Federalists failed to realize that no imprecision of language at all should have been allowed to remain in the finished product of the Constitution. Not many years hence, unless something dramatic happens to reverse our present course, and the United States will become a full-fledged tyranny ripe for the judgement of God.

Edited by Bobbieaware
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I don't know why this is even slightly important. Franklin, Jefferson and Paine might not have been conventional Christians, but the majority of the FF were. Every meeting of the Continental Congress began with Christian prayer, and nobody objected, even the Deists. It is a cast-iron fact that 99% or more of the inhabitants of the Colonies and the United States were at the very least nominal Christians.

The Constitution might not have any overt religious content, but it grew out of the religious principles held by those who put it together.

 

There is no sticky wicket. No Christian sect has or should have the force of law, even if Christian principles inherently inform our laws.

 

Franklin, Jefferson, and Paine were not Christian. Franklin, and Jefferson were Deists. Paine was an outright Atheist.

SEE Deism http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deism

 

I never said that the majority weren't. But since when does the majority get to determine your or my religion?

 

What Christian religious principles would that be that you and I have to hold to be a good citizens of the US? Must you and I believe in the Evangelical ideas about the divinity of Christ? Then what about Jefferson, Franklin, not to mention Paine. Do the Pagans, Muslims, Jews get to be good US citizens. Here is what Jefferson said about religious freedom “neither Pagan nor Mahamedan nor Jew ought to be excluded from the civil rights of the Commonwealth because of his religion.”

SEE http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/jeffjews.html

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Franklin, Jefferson, and Paine were not Christian. Franklin, and Jefferson were Deists. Paine was an outright Atheist.

---------

I never said that the majority weren't. But since when does the majority get to determine your or my religion?

...

There were obviously a good many pious and observant Christians among

the "Founding Fathers;" also some Christians-in-name-only; also some guys

who kept their mouths shut about such things; also some Deists, Masons,

and Universalists who had learned that politicians sometimes had to go

along with the majority.

Did the bulk of those fellows truly believe they were starting up a country

meant to be a Christian Nation in the same way that Calvin's Geneva

or the old Papal States in Italy were unequivocally "Christian?"

I think not -- though some of the founders might have gone along with

such a plan, had the rest of them supported it.

But, injecting a State Religion and a State Church into the Constitution

would have been a move that pretty much ran against the intent and

spirit of the rest of the document.

They could have said something along the lines of "Judaism and

Mohammedism will be TOLERATED;" but even that sort of notion

was left unstated. In the eyes of the civil law, all organizations

claiming to be religions were equal -- along with organizations not

making any such claim.

Did SOME of the founders believe that the Christian God was

watching over the new nation, blessing it or cursing it, as actions

of its inhabitants might merit? I suppose so.

An avid supporter of "personhood at conception," and the strictest

possible anti-abortion legislation once shared with me her beliefs.

"You must really value human life, to be so outspoken," I said.

"More than that, I know God is watching this country and will

punish all of us for the sins of the baby-murderers and gays!"

was her reply...

She truly thinks a coming divine judgment will harm her and

her family, because the neighbors are not Christian enough:

a judgment to be meted out in the USA, but not especially

for any other country of similar proportions and population.

Strange, hunh?

UD

Edited by Uncle Dale
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Both the Federalists and, more especially, the Anti-Federalists were prone to, as Nephi would say, not trust in the arm of flesh. They knew by keen observation that mankind was not a race of angelic beings, so they eventually produced the Constitution of the United States (the Anti-Federalists by default) as an antidote. The Anti-Federalists wanted the Constitution to be written with totally non-ambiguous language, while the Federalists naively thought future generations couldn't possibly misconstrue the expression "promote the general welfare" to be interpreted as a chart blanch for the central government to establish tyranny in the name of compassion.

Sadly, at least as far as I'm concerned, the Anti-Federalists turned out to be the faction with the greater foresight because limited Constitutional government is no longer practiced in the United States, the Constitution now being esteemed as little more than a "quaint relic" from the past that is now largely ignored. As far as I'm concerned, the Founding Fathers were inspired of God, but the victorious Federalists failed to realize that no imprecision of language at all should have been allowed to remain in the finished product of the Constitution. Not many years hence, unless something dramatic happens to reverse our present course, and the United States will become a full-fledged tyranny ripe for the judgement of God.

 

The Anti-Federalist were the ones that wanted to keep the Articles of Confederation.

http://www.constitutionfacts.com/us-articles-of-confederation/the-great-debate/

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