Stone holm Posted December 28, 2014 Posted December 28, 2014 So the women never got a testimony because they never went on a mission and thus had stronger testimonies? Not understanding the reasoning here...Sorry, didn't state that well. In the Midwest where I lived at the time it was the women who had the really strong testimonies. They were virtually all women who had been tracted out and joined through the missionary process, and compared to the men were the real strength of the Branch. The brother was from out west, his wife, a wonderful woman, was only sporadically active--both were raised in the Church. He was talking from his experience, that in his opinion, the situation was the opposite in the west where the members all tended to have been raised in the Church. He felt that out there, the boys actually got their testimonies while serving their missions and the girls, not having that experience were not getting them. I have never lived in the West while a Mormon, so I do not know if his observation was correct, but I have seen some evidence of it from move ins. Course, this was back in the 70's and 80's when YW were still being discouraged from serving missions, there has been a quiet, but major sea change in attitude since then. I certainly wish we had a couple Sister Missionaries in our Ward.
Thinking Posted December 28, 2014 Posted December 28, 2014 Either God tells the truth or not. Or somebody who writes down what he thinks God said tells the truth or not. 1
Thinking Posted December 28, 2014 Posted December 28, 2014 Brigham Young (and I) would disagree with this completely.For an interesting discussion of this try this one from Sunstone. Evolution of doctrine is one thing that caused me to question the truth claims of the LDS Church. 1
Tacenda Posted December 28, 2014 Posted December 28, 2014 Evolution of doctrine is one thing that caused me to question the truth claims of the LDS Church.And some doctrine changed from being doctrine to not doctrine such as polgamy and blacks denied the PH. The latter being not from God eventually. As per the recent essay.
ERayR Posted December 28, 2014 Posted December 28, 2014 And some doctrine changed from being doctrine to not doctrine such as polgamy and blacks denied the PH. The latter being not from God eventually. As per the recent essay. #9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
JLHPROF Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 Evolution of doctrine is one thing that caused me to question the truth claims of the LDS Church. Evolution of doctrine and knowledge as more was restored through the prophets doesn't bother me in the slightest. The only area I find issues is determining when the full truth of any particular doctrine might have been arrived at.Many people see a steady incline in revealed truth. I am less convinced. I think on many topics we have more of a bell curve, with the peak being earlier in Church History and today being on the decline. (The Temple endowment is one of the main ones in my opinion). 1
Brian 2.0 Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 #9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.This quote belongs in the "exalted gays" thread as well.
ERayR Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 This quote belongs in the "exalted gays" thread as well. Exhalted gays has not yet been revealed. When it is then it belongs there.
Thinking Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 #9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. New revelations should not contradict current or old doctrine, they should enhance it. For example, according to my understanding of LDS doctrine, Jesus created the earth under the direction of the Father. If new revelation describes the process of the creation such as the length of the creative periods, but still maintains Christ as the Creator, there is no contradiction with the added knowledge. IMO, AoF #9 is not a loophole that allows changes to doctrine.
Scott Lloyd Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 ,Interestingly, though, by leaving the Church and walking away from their sacred covenants, many -- like Alma the Younger and the sons of Mosiah -- seem to unwittingly follow a foreordained course that eventually leads them back home to the truth, total conversion and ultimate spiritual greatness. The time spent in the lone and dreary world teaching them well how to prize and remain loyal to the good by first getting a potent bellyful of spiritual bitterness.I feel some indigestion over the concept of personal apostasy having been "foreordained." Foreordination is a scriptural concept associated with having been called to minister to the inhabitants of the world (to use the phrasing from an oft-quoted statement by Joseph Smith). Moreover, this seems too much like the notion that someone who has violated covenants and returned to the fold somehow has a greater spiritual capacity that one who never left in the first place. I have encountered this notion from time to time in my life, and I have always resisted it.
Stone holm Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 Evolution of doctrine and knowledge as more was restored through the prophets doesn't bother me in the slightest. The only area I find issues is determining when the full truth of any particular doctrine might have been arrived at.Many people see a steady incline in revealed truth. I am less convinced. I think on many topics we have more of a bell curve, with the peak being earlier in Church History and today being on the decline. (The Temple endowment is one of the main ones in my opinion).I agree with much of this. I see little positive evolution of doctrine today. Symptoms of an overly matured religion which "no longer emphasizes" it's important distinctive truths does not suggest positive evolution. Nor does war on science or intellectuals. 1
Stone holm Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 Wife was driving. Very bumpy on snow. I taught my kids the gospel and innoculated them much like the church had spoken about. Most of the essay materials plus a few others. Both were smart kids. The oldest one graduated from grad school just after she turned 23. The oldest boy got into philosophy and went on a mission. He got married and his wife got into Mormon Stories and stopped going to Church. They won't bless their baby in the Church. The oldest girl married, but received a revelation about ordaining women and is heavily involved in OW. Neither wears their garments though the girl seems to go to Church and participate. I don't know if she was one of those women punished for their involvement. Mormons used to leave and often go to another Church. A few became atheists. Now they leave all together as it seems because of secular or social liberal issues. The Apostacy narrative may have been too strong. Our Church is the true (or as I say the most true) and others just don't have the truth. That seems to alienate kids from going to other churches and go the secular humanist route. This is one of those times that I would like to kick John Drhlin in the shins for what seems to be the strong exit narrative of leaving the Church in Mormon Stories. MS is an exmormon/Postmormon group that interviews every controversy old or new for a podcast. This is the part where my son and wife act like mormons, but drink coffee and don't answer the door when ward members come to their house. My daughter struggled to go to Church while wearing pants sometimes and is the boss in her house. Mormon Feminist Housewives are her people and she actively supports that group and Orfdain Wormen. She cried for weeks after Kate Kelly was excommunicated. She changed in her heart and interactions with my wife were tough. Strong personalities acting together in the realm of who should have the priesthood. Lately we just love them and carry out family traditions and show love. We hope that will work and they do participate in our home. We don't discuss controversial things and just have our famy and grandchildren in our home. My oldest kids are those struggling people in many wards. Please show them love while not stuffing the Church down their throats. Pray for then. I do. Hope that gives a personal side to this topic.One wonders whether the right wing aura the Church gathered was worth the loss of many of our best and brightest. Of my 7, 2 remain active, having learned to ignore the aura. The rest left, feeling dressing their daughters in dresses somehow didn't signify truth.
Anteojito Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 As a recent non-believer who now considers himself agnostic/atheist I can answer this for myself (and a number of people close to me that have left share this sentiment). Firstly though I would never say I was "deceived" by the church and I don't hold anger and resentment towards it. For me it was a matter of losing faith in the spiritual method for gaining truth. I now see the method in Alma 32 as an unreliable way to determine certain things... like if the events in the BOM actually happened, or if Jesus actually was resurrected, or even if God exists. When taking spiritual witnesses off the scales when evaluating evidence, then often times you find the scales tipping the other way. It's a huge paradigm shift, and one that affects your beliefs on a number of things both in and outside Mormonism. This is pretty much the same thing with me. As I began looking more into the troubling issues with the church, I hung tightly to the spiritual experiences that I had throughout my life. When I finally came across the straw that broke the camel's back, all I had left were those experiences. Problem with that though, was that I had a lot of friends and co-workers who were not LDS but had told me, that they had spiritual experiences that they believed told them that their particular path was the right one. Also my time in SWA showed me that there are a lot of people who believed so much that their religion was the only true one they were willing to blow themselves up for their cause. I could only come up with three possibilities: 1. All those other people's spiritual experiences were false and only spiritual experiences that tell you that the LDS church is true are real.2. God doesn't really care what religion you belong to so he leads you to the one which works best for you (which oddly enough for most people is the dominant religion where they live).3. There is no God or if there is a God, he,she,it does not answer prayers. After I decided that the BOM was not true, I started looking into the bible and after coming across several issues with it, (i.e. the story about Jesus saying "He who is without sin, cast the first stone" being added to the NT some 300 years later) I came to the conclusion, that I could not put any trust in it either. I think presently, I am at a point where I will concede that there is a possibility there is a God, I don't think there is much of a probability that there is one. And if there is one, I think it is more probable that he,she,it is not the God of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac. For all we know, if there was a God that started all of this, he is about as interested in us as a lab tech is interested in the development of something on a Petri dish. I have been asked by concerned friends and family members "Well, what are you going to say to God if you are wrong?" Actually, I would have a lot I would say...
pogi Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 For all we know, if there was a God that started all of this, he is about as interested in us as a lab tech is interested in the development of something on a Petri dish. Is that how you felt during your spiritual experiences?
Anteojito Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 At the time, I felt that they were real, just like most people do, regardless of their religion.
ERayR Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 At the time, I felt that they were real, just like most people do, regardless of their religion. So now you believe it was only your own petri dish getting an electrical stimulation?
pogi Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 At the time, I felt that they were real, just like most people do, regardless of their religion. Did you feel like you were merely something to be observed on a petri dish, or did you feel loved and cherished? I don't question the spiritual experiences of other religions. They too are God's children experiencing Him through the lens of their culture and upbringing.
Anteojito Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 So now you believe it was only your own petri dish getting an electrical stimulation?I don't think I understand your question. My point was that maybe there was/is a God who created us, but that does not mean that he loves and cares about us. I think that it is just as possible that he couldn't care less how things turn out for us.
Anteojito Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 Did you feel like you were merely something to be observed on a petri dish, or did you feel loved and cherished? I don't question the spiritual experiences of other religions. They too are God's children experiencing Him through the lens of their culture and upbringing. Yeah, but how does that fit into the "The LDS church is the one and only true church" paradigm?
pogi Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 (edited) Yeah, but how does that fit into the "The LDS church is the one and only true church" paradigm? I only believe that this is his one and only true church, because I must acknowledge that I too can only experience God through the lens of my culture and upbringing just like everybody else. What I know is that God loves me and that he is pleased with my path. If he asks me to change coarse, I will. Until then, I will stay coarse which entails believing and living by the prophetic claims. Edited December 29, 2014 by pogi
ERayR Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 I don't think I understand your question. My point was that maybe there was/is a God who created us, but that does not mean that he loves and cares about us. I think that it is just as possible that he couldn't care less how things turn out for us. You said: "At the time, I felt that they were real, just like most people do, regardless of their religion" I asked: ."So now you believe it was only your own petri dish getting an electrical stimulation?" You must have felt something. What was it? An extra jolt of electricity to you petri dish or spiritual communication?
Anteojito Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 I only believe that this is his one and only true church, because I must acknowledge that I too can only experience God through the lens of my culture and upbringing just like everybody else. What I know is that God loves me and that he is pleased with my path. If he asks me to change coarse, I will. Until then, I will stay coarse which entails believing and living by the prophetic claims.That is fine I guess. I wonder then how will God deal with those guys who blew themselves and others into red vapor because they truly believed they were doing his will.
Anteojito Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 You said: "At the time, I felt that they were real, just like most people do, regardless of their religion" I asked: ."So now you believe it was only your own petri dish getting an electrical stimulation?" You must have felt something. What was it? An extra jolt of electricity to you petri dish or spiritual communication?No, now I believe that those experiences, were a combination of my desire to receive the experience and confirmation bias. I kept trying until something happened that I could then contribute to being a spiritual experience.
pogi Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 I wonder then how will God deal with those guys who blew themselves and others into red vapor because they truly believed they were doing his will. I wonder too. If Mormonism is indeed true, then the worst they can get is the Telestial. Even they will be saved in glory, but at what level, one can only speculate and would be foolish to judge.
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