Yet Another Polygamy Article

[JLHPROF]

http://religiondispatches.org/revealing-joseph-smiths-well-known-polygamy-doesnt-address-the-lds-churchs-bigger-problem/

 

 

“I am the Relief Society president in my singles ward in Boston,” she told me, indicating her role as an appointed spiritual leader of a community of college-aged young women. “People are really struggling to make sense of all the problems in Mormon history and theology and to hang on in spite of them. What do I tell them?”

 

I believe that people are struggling, but are the problems really with Mormon history and theology?  Or are they with a society that thinks our current notions are so much better than in the past?  I think the latter - seriously, I think should have been born in 1840 - I seem to identify with our 19th Century brothers and sisters more often than with my contemporaries.

 

 

How will the LDS Church’s new website on Joseph Smith’s polygamy—written by an unnamed and uncredited historian, released without announcement, invisible from the LDS Church’s landing page—help this devoted twenty-five year old Mormon woman guide and serve the people she is responsible for?

 

Seriously, what do people want?  A press conference? Billboards on Temple Square?  A disclaimer at the beginning of D&C 132?

 

 

Similarly, the new website on Joseph Smith’s polygamy does not say that Smith was wrong—not for marrying against the wishes of his first wife Emma, or marrying women already married to other men, or marrying girls as young as fourteen. It acknowledges that Smith’s polygamy demanded heartwrenching sacrifices of his first wife, but it sidesteps the crucial question of whether these sacrifices were founded in lasting principles of Mormon theology, or were they pains caused by the human excesses of our charismatic founder?

Is it the will of God that polygamy should persist in LDS Church theology and policies pertaining to LDS temple marriages, as it does to this day?

 

That is because Joseph was not wrong, did nothing wrong (at least not where plural marriage is concerned), Joseph wasn't perfect but he was a Saint and Prophet.  We need to focus on coming to terms with the history and theology, not declaring it wrong because it offends our modern sensibilities.

[Scott Lloyd]

Does Brooks offer cheese with that whine?

[rockpond]

Does Brooks offer cheese with that whine?

 

You can mock but I'll tell you that we have real people in my ward struggling with these issues.

[rockpond]

That is because Joseph was not wrong, did nothing wrong (at least not where plural marriage is concerned), Joseph wasn't perfect but he was a Saint and Prophet.  We need to focus on coming to terms with the history and theology, not declaring it wrong because it offends our modern sensibilities.

 

He wasn't wrong?  Not at all?  Wasn't it wrong for him to disregard the commandments outlined in Section 132 in the way he practiced polygamy?

[Avatar4321]

Then they need to read the Book of Mormon. Because it has the power to bring people to Christ and answer questions.

[ERayR]

You can mock but I'll tell you that we have real people in my ward struggling with these issues.

 

As we have, since the restoration, had people struggling with whatever issues bothered them.  If the Church were to change for everything that is an issue to someone it would not be much of an anchor for ones life. 

[JLHPROF]

You can mock but I'll tell you that we have real people in my ward struggling with these issues.

 

I think I posted this article because it does specifically address the struggles.

So, for the purpose of this thread, let's look at the struggles rather than the historical facts (there are two threads on those already).

 

What exactly about the history of polygamy is causing people to struggle?  The age of some of the brides (Joseph and others) married?  The polyandry?  Plural marriage itself?  Gender inequality?

 

There have been pretty reasonable explanations provided for some of the issues.  Some of the issues we don't have explanations for.  Many things are just a matter of faith.

 

So, perhaps we can use this thread to focus on OUR reaction to polygamy instead of the polygamy history itself as in the two other active threads.

 

Why do we have such a hard time accepting our polygamous past - especially since it is not fully practiced today and since there are explanations?  Is it just society?  For some it strikes a much more personal level.  Why does our polygamous history cause so much struggle?

[Avatar4321]

He wasn't wrong?  Not at all?  Wasn't it wrong for him to disregard the commandments outlined in Section 132 in the way he practiced polygamy?

and what revelation have you received determining he was wrong?

[rockpond]

As we have, since the restoration, had people struggling with whatever issues bothered them.  If the Church were to change for everything that is an issue to someone it would not be much of an anchor for ones life. 

 

Did I say the Church needed to change for Joanna's article?  No.  I just suggested that we not mock what she wrote.  It's valid and a real issue facing membership.

[rockpond]

and what revelation have you received determining he was wrong?

 

I don't need a revelation.  I can compare what he did with what the revelation known as Section 132 commands.  Can we admit he was wrong in those areas where he didn't follow the commands dictated by the revelation?

 

Can we also admit that he was wrong for lying about it?

[Avatar4321]

I think I posted this article because it does specifically address the struggles.

So, for the purpose of this thread, let's look at the struggles rather than the historical facts (there are two threads on those already).

 

What exactly about the history of polygamy is causing people to struggle?  The age of some of the brides (Joseph and others) married?  The polyandry?  Plural marriage itself?  Gender inequality?

 

There have been pretty reasonable explanations provided for some of the issues.  Some of the issues we don't have explanations for.  Many things are just a matter of faith.

 

So, perhaps we can use this thread to focus on OUR reaction to polygamy instead of the polygamy history itself as in the two other active threads.

 

Why do we have such a hard time accepting our polygamous past - especially since it is not fully practiced today and since there are explanations?  Is it just society?  For some it strikes a much more personal level.  Why does our polygamous history cause so much struggle?

good questions. I'm just not sure that as many people have struggles accepting our history as some thing.

id rather have a polygamous prophet than no prophet at all.

[rockpond]

I think I posted this article because it does specifically address the struggles.

So, for the purpose of this thread, let's look at the struggles rather than the historical facts (there are two threads on those already).

 

What exactly about the history of polygamy is causing people to struggle?  The age of some of the brides (Joseph and others) married?  The polyandry?  Plural marriage itself?  Gender inequality?

 

There have been pretty reasonable explanations provided for some of the issues.  Some of the issues we don't have explanations for.  Many things are just a matter of faith.

 

So, perhaps we can use this thread to focus on OUR reaction to polygamy instead of the polygamy history itself as in the two other active threads.

 

Why do we have such a hard time accepting our polygamous past - especially since it is not fully practiced today and since there are explanations?  Is it just society?  For some it strikes a much more personal level.  Why does our polygamous history cause so much struggle?

 

As I've said before, I don't have a problem with the practice of polygamy.  I think it should be legal here in the U.S.

 

As for my reaction... the reasons for my disagreement with the early practice of polygamy in the church...

1. Joseph didn't follow his own revelation.
2. Joseph lied about the practice.
3. Joseph hid it from his wife.
4. Timing of the revelation, restoration of the sealing power, and entrance into polygamy is problematic for me.
5. Quantity of wives
6. Coercion by one in authority
7. The Lord can apparently send an angel with a drawn sword to get Joseph to marry more women but couldn't get prophets and apostles to stop teaching false reasons for the priesthood ban for over a century.
8. I see the fruits of polygamy as being overwhelmingly negative.

Edited November 13, 2014 by rockpond

[ERayR]

Did I say the Church needed to change for Joanna's article?  No.  I just suggested that we not mock what she wrote.  It's valid and a real issue facing membership.

 

No, because her articles are designed to sow dissension.

 

 

I don't need a revelation.  I can compare what he did with what the revelation known as Section 132 commands.  Can we admit he was wrong in those areas where he didn't follow the commands dictated by the revelation?

 

Can we also admit that he was wrong for lying about it?

 

No we can not admit anything like that.  Your judgements come from a twenty first century paradigm and, in my opinion, are unrighteous judgements.

[ERayR]

 

As I've said before, I don't have a problem with the practice of polygamy.  I think it should be legal here in the U.S.

 

As for my reaction... the reasons for my disagreement with the early practice of polygamy in the church...

1. Joseph didn't follow his own revelation.
2. Joseph lied about the practice.
3. Joseph hid it from his wife.
4. Timing of the revelation, restoration of the sealing power, and entrance into polygamy is problematic for me.
5. Quantity of wives
6. Coercion by one in authority
7. The Lord can apparently send an angel with a drawn sword to get Joseph to marry more women but couldn't get prophets and apostles to stop teaching false reasons for the priesthood ban for over a century.
8. I see the fruits of polygamy as being overwhelmingly negative.

 

 

So what can we conclude from you analysis?  Does it prove the Church is false and Joseph Smith a fraud?

[rockpond]

So what can we conclude from you analysis?  Does it prove the Church is false and Joseph Smith a fraud?

 

Certainly not.... why such binary thinking?  I have a testimony of Joseph as the prophet of the restoration.  But that doesn't mean he didn't make mistakes.

[rockpond]

No, because her articles are designed to sow dissension.

 

I didn't seem that way to me.

[ERayR]

Certainly not.... why such binary thinking?  I have a testimony of Joseph as the prophet of the restoration.  But that doesn't mean he didn't make mistakes.

 

Good we agree so far.

 

Why the fuss over polygamy?  What effect does it have on your life and salvation?

[rockpond]

No we can not admit anything like that.  Your judgements come from a twenty first century paradigm and, in my opinion, are unrighteous judgements.

 

What have I said that comes from a 21st century paradigm?

[rockpond]

Good we agree so far.

 

Why the fuss over polygamy?  What effect does it have on your life and salvation?

 

Who's fussing.  I'm just discussing on a message board.  The same as you.

 

But to the point in the article quoted in the OP... to the extent that our teachings about polygamy impact church membership there is an effect on lives and salvation.

[JLHPROF]

Certainly not.... why such binary thinking?  I have a testimony of Joseph as the prophet of the restoration.  But that doesn't mean he didn't make mistakes.

 

In my opinion if Joseph made the "mistakes" you list, then he absolutely would be a fallen prophet.  He would have had no power but to name a successor (and we saw how well that went).  Three major claimants, two were polygamists too so you have the same issues there, and one who fought polygamy their whole life.

 

I don't see how anyone can believe the list of "mistakes" that you claim Joseph made and still believe that the LDS Church is God's church.  RLDS/CoC sure, but not LDS.

[rockpond]

In my opinion if Joseph made the "mistakes" you list, then he absolutely would be a fallen prophet.  He would have had no power but to name a successor (and we saw how well that went).  Three major claimants, two were polygamists too so you have the same issues there, and one who fought polygamy their whole life.

 

I don't see how anyone can believe the list of "mistakes" that you claim Joseph made and still believe that the LDS Church is God's church.  RLDS/CoC sure, but not LDS.

 

Because a prophet doesn't have to be perfect to be a prophet.

 

How do you deal with the fact that Joseph didn't follow the principles in the revelation contained in section 132?

[JLHPROF]

Because a prophet doesn't have to be perfect to be a prophet.

 

How do you deal with the fact that Joseph didn't follow the principles in the revelation contained in section 132?

 

Refresh my memory...I know we've debated this before, but which principles do you feel he didn't follow (that I almost certainly feel he did)?

[ERayR]

What have I said that comes from a 21st century paradigm?

 

Quantity of wives

[teddyaware]

You can mock but I'll tell you that we have real people in my ward struggling with these issues.

 

And it's very likely these struggling folks will continue to struggle without official answers that will ease and settle their minds concerning the early practice of polygamy. It's my firm conviction that things are as they are in the Church today because God is testing the saints to determine if they can develop the spirit of revelation in their own lives and thereby have sufficient spiritual 'oil in their lamps" to keep their testimonies strong and vibrant. 

 

What we see happening today with this issue, and others like it, is the fulfillment of Lehi's prophecy concerning the rising mists of darkness and mockery of the world that would tempt the saints of God to let go of the iron rod, and the fruit of the tree of life, and wander off into strange, testimony-compromising paths. 

 

I can almost guarantee you that there will be very little, if any, direct relief for these struggles coming from the official channels of the Church. Each member has been given the gift of the Holy Ghost, and if properly tended to and nurtured that supernal gift will lead even the least of the saints into great outpourings of spiritual spiritual truth that will answer all doubts and empower each man or woman to become a prophet or prophetess in his or her own right. The tools and spiritual gifts are already there waiting to be used and developed.

 

We have heard it over and over again -- no saint of God can live on borrowed light. And we have also been repeatedly taught that by the gift of the Holy Ghost, given to each of us individually, we may know the truth of all things, including the issues dealing with celestial marriage. For a wise purpose in Him, God is allowing the mists of darkness to descend on the Church. And now we will see who will let go of the iron rod and cast aside the fruit of the tree of life, and who will remain steadfast and obtain eternal exaltation.

 

May I suggest that the place for these struggling souls to start is to temporarily put aside their concerns about the Abrahamic Covenant of Marriage and start at the beginning by reacquainting themselves with the basics of the Restored Gospel, including an intense study of the Book of Mormon? The principles surrounding plural marriage are part of the mysteries of the Gospel and there's no hope they will ever be properly understood by any man until the more readily digestible milk of God's word is first internalized and thoroughly digested.

 

It was the Saviour Himself who said that one must first gain a testimony and deep understanding of the basics of the Gospel before he will be able to understand the deeper mysteries of God's kingdom.

 

8 And these things have I written (the Book of Mormon as we have it today), which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.

 9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.

 10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things (the Gospel basics as contained in our Book of Mormon), then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation. (3 Nephi 26)

Edited November 13, 2014 by teddyaware

[Robert F. Smith]

You can mock but I'll tell you that we have real people in my ward struggling with these issues.

Of course you do, as well you should.  Any religion which is not a challenge for its members (and prospective members) is not worth having.  Socrates said that "the unexamined life is not worth living," and Mike Quinn paraphrased that as "the unexamined faith is not worth having."  One of my sergeants in the Marine Corps used to say, "if you're going to be a bear, be a grizzly!"

 

So, rather than being namby pamby about it, tell those struggling with LDS issues in your ward to proceed full steam to make a close examination.  They should not fear that, but expect that they will be stronger for the effort -- no matter who gets in their way.  

 

As for me, I have been closely examining all such issues throughout my life, and am very comfortable in my Mormon skin.