Yet Another Polygamy Article

[stemelbow]

People left the Church because of polygamy back then and they'll leave it today. I don't know that saying they were wrong would do a thing to curtail or stop the struggles. Everyone struggles over something.

I mean in some measure I agree with some of what Brook's says, but she's just too dogmatic and fervently trying to be right. She doesn't know the mind of God, nor the people of the past, anymore than any of us.

[ERayR]

Because a prophet doesn't have to be perfect to be a prophet.

 

How do you deal with the fact that Joseph didn't follow the principles in the revelation contained in section 132?

 

I do not have to deal with it as Joseph Smith is long gone and I accept him as the prophet of the restoration.  Now if my Bishop were to call me in and tell me that I was to tke two of the widow or single women of the ward as wives I guarantee you he and I would have a long serious discussion.

[strappinglad]

I do not have to deal with it as Joseph Smith is long gone and I accept him as the prophet of the restoration.  Now if my Bishop were to call me in and tell me that I was to tke two of the widow or single women of the ward as wives I guarantee you he and I would have a long serious discussion.

I would say that an FLDS bishop has infiltrated the ward.

[Avatar4321]

I don't need a revelation.  I can compare what he did with what the revelation known as Section 132 commands.  Can we admit he was wrong in those areas where he didn't follow the commands dictated by the revelation?

 

Can we also admit that he was wrong for lying about it?

you assume section 132 is all the Lord taught Him on plural marriage. we don't know that. So unless we know how Joseph understood it how can we conclude that anything he did concerning it or not revealing it to the general population was incorrect or wrong?

the Lord can judge Joseph as he wills. If Joseph was sinning in some aspect, we are required to forgive him.

[rockpond]

Refresh my memory...I know we've debated this before, but which principles do you feel he didn't follow (that I almost certainly feel he did)?

 

Start with vs 61.

[Mahoneymoriancumer]

  The recent attention to this issue is certainly causing conversation (my own mother-in-law apparently was unaware of Joseph's practice of polygamy, which shocked me) and may be uncomfortable for some members, but I would ask the question: if they are uncomfortable now, would it have been any different if such issues came to their attention down the road?  I believe we all have to find answers or make our peace with our past as a people and a church, and what the church has done is to make many people begin dealing with the issue now, instead of later.  Long-term, I believe it will make things easier, but it will be controversial for a time.  

[rockpond]

Quantity of wives

 

You think that questioning why Joseph needed 30+ wives or why Brigham needed 50+ wives is a 21c paradigm?  How so?

Edited November 13, 2014 by rockpond

[rockpond]

And it's very likely these struggling folks will continue to struggle without official answers concerning the early practice of polygamy that will ease and settle their minds with respect to their flagging testimonies. It's my firm conviction that things are as they are in the Church today because God is testing the saints to determine if they can develop the spirit of revelation in their own lives and thereby have sufficient spiritual 'oil in their lamps" to keep their testimonies strong and vibrant. 

 

What we see happening today with this issue, and others like it, is the fulfillment of Lehi's prophecy concerning the rising mists of darkness and mockery of the world that would tempt the saints of God to let go of the iron rod, and the fruit of the tree of life, and wander off into strange, testimony-compromising paths. 

 

I can almost guarantee you that there will be very little, if any, direct relief for these struggles coming from the official channels of the Church. Each member has been given the gift of the Holy Ghost, and if properly tended to and nurtured that supernal gift will lead even the least of the saints into great outpourings of spiritual spiritual truth that will answer all doubts and empower each man or woman to become a prophet or prophetess in his or her own right. The tools and spiritual gifts are already there waiting to be used and developed.

 

We have heard it over and over again -- no saint of God can live on borrowed light. And we have also been repeatedly taught that by the gift of the Holy Ghost, given to each of us individually, we may know the truth of all things, including the issues dealing with celestial marriage. For a wise purpose in Him, God is allowing the mists of darkness to descend on the Church. And now we will see who will let go of the iron rod and cast aside the fruit of the tree of life, and who will remain steadfast and obtain eternal exaltation.

 

May I suggest that the place for these struggling souls to start is to temporarily put aside their concerns about the Abrahamic Covenant of Marriage and start at the beginning by reacquainting themselves with the basics of the Restored Gospel, including an intense study of the Book of Mormon? The principles surrounding plural marriage are part of the mysteries of the Gospel and there's no hope they will ever be properly understood by any man until the more readily digestible milk of God's word is first internalized and thoroughly digested.

 

It was the Saviour Himself who said that one must first gain a testimony and deep understanding of the basics of the Gospel before he will be able to understand the deeper mysteries of God's kingdom.

 

8 And these things have I written (the Book of Mormon as we have it today), which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.

 9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.

 10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things (the Gospel basics as contained in our Book of Mormon), then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation. (3 Nephi 26)

 

I agree.  Amen.

[rockpond]

Of course you do, as well you should.  Any religion which is not a challenge for its members (and prospective members) is not worth having.  Socrates said that "the unexamined life is not worth living," and Mike Quinn paraphrased that as "the unexamined faith is not worth having."  One of my sergeants in the Marine Corps used to say, "if you're going to be a bear, be a grizzly!"

 

So, rather than being namby pamby about it, tell those struggling with LDS issues in your ward to proceed full steam to make a close examination.  They should not fear that, but expect that they will be stronger for the effort -- no matter who gets in their way.  

 

As for me, I have been closely examining all such issues throughout my life, and am very comfortable in my Mormon skin.

 

I agree.  And I think that Joanna is trying to be a grizzly and live the examined faith... thus the article in the OP.

[rockpond]

you assume section 132 is all the Lord taught Him on plural marriage. we don't know that. So unless we know how Joseph understood it how can we conclude that anything he did concerning it or not revealing it to the general population was incorrect or wrong?

the Lord can judge Joseph as he wills. If Joseph was sinning in some aspect, we are required to forgive him.

 

I don't really think it is my place to forgive Joseph (since he didn't sin against me) but I hold no ill will toward him.

 

With your comment about *my assumption* of Section 132 are you suggesting that perhaps the Lord told Joseph how plural marriage should be practiced in what we have recorded... and then told him later that he could disregard commandments that He had revealed to him?

[Robert F. Smith]

I agree.  And I think that Joanna is trying to be a grizzly and live the examined faith... thus the article in the OP.

Well, yes, but she got so many things wrong.  That may not be completely her fault, and she is too young to recall some issues accurately.  Maybe down the road she will start getting it straight.

[ERayR]

You think that questioning why Joseph needed 30+ wives or why Brigham needed 50+ wives is a 21c paradigm?  How so?

 

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Solomon and David just to name a few would not have questioned it.

[rockpond]

Well, yes, but she got so many things wrong.  That may not be completely her fault, and she is too young to recall some issues accurately.  Maybe down the road she will start getting it straight.

 

What do you feel she got wrong?

[ERayR]

I don't really think it is my place to forgive Joseph (since he didn't sin against me) but I hold no ill will toward him.

 

With your comment about *my assumption* of Section 132 are you suggesting that perhaps the Lord told Joseph how plural marriage should be practiced in what we have recorded... and then told him later that he could disregard commandments that He had revealed to him?

 

Nope, my assumption is that he told him to practice it and left it up to him to figure out the details.

[rockpond]

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Solomon and David just to name a few would not have questioned it.

 

Let's see... Abraham - 2, Isaac - 1, Jacob - 4, David - 8.  That's a far cry from being in the 30's or 50's.

 

Solomon is thought to have had hundreds, possibly over a thousand if you include concubines.  You wanna hang your hat on that?  Go for it.

[rockpond]

Nope, my assumption is that he told him to practice it and left it up to him to figure out the details.

 

Except that the Lord did give him some details in the revelation known as Section 132 which he apparently disregarded in his practice of plural marriage.

[ERayR]

Let's see... Abraham - 2, Isaac - 1, Jacob - 4, David - 8.  That's a far cry from being in the 30's or 50's.

 

Solomon is thought to have had hundreds, possibly over a thousand if you include concubines.  You wanna hang your hat on that?  Go for it.

 

Let's see... Abraham - 2, Isaac - 1, Jacob - 4, David - 8.  That's a far cry from being in the 30's or 50's.

 

Solomon is thought to have had hundreds, possibly over a thousand if you include concubines.  You wanna hang your hat on that?  Go for it.

 

You are making a fuss over this why?  What do you hope to accomplish?

[rockpond]

You are making a fuss over this why?  What do you hope to accomplish?

 

I was responding to you telling me that I am seeing this from a 21c paradigm.  Not making a fuss.

[ERayR]

I was responding to you telling me that I am seeing this from a 21c paradigm.  Not making a fuss.

 

No I am talking about the whole polygamy issue.  You seem obsessed with it.

[rockpond]

No I am talking about the whole polygamy issue.  You seem obsessed with it.

 

Ah.  Well, I'm not.

[ERayR]

Ah.  Well, I'm not.

 

And all these posts???

[cinepro]

As I've said before, I don't have a problem with the practice of polygamy.  I think it should be legal here in the U.S.

 

As for my reaction... the reasons for my disagreement with the early practice of polygamy in the church...

• Joseph didn't follow his own revelation.
• Joseph lied about the practice.
• Joseph hid it from his wife.
• Timing of the revelation, restoration of the sealing power, and entrance into polygamy is problematic for me.
• Quantity of wives
• Coercion by one in authority
• The Lord can apparently send an angel with a drawn sword to get Joseph to marry more women but couldn't get prophets and apostles to stop teaching false reasons for the priesthood ban for over a century.
• I see the fruits of polygamy as being overwhelmingly negative.

I would also add that Joseph felt inspired to marry the young women who lived with Emma and him in Nauvoo, including Lucy Walker (age 17), Emily and Eliza Partridge (19 & 22), Sarah and Maria Lawrence (17 & 19) and Melissa Lott (age 19). In fact, I would challenge anyone to name a woman between the age of 16 - 25 who lived with the Smith's in Nauvoo who Joseph wasn't inspired to marry. 

 

God might work in mysterious ways, but there really isn't anything mysterious about that.

[rockpond]

And all these posts???

 

Aren't you making about the same number of posts?

 

Honestly, I'm just discussing it with you (and others here).  It is an important issue for the church and one that is a frequent cause of faith crises.  As a father, brother, friend, and ward leader that makes it important to me.  The Church's recent series of articles has brought even more attention to the matter and I think that it's worth digging into.

[thesometimesaint]

You think that questioning why Joseph needed 30+ wives or why Brigham needed 50+ wives is a 21c paradigm?  How so?

 

Why should it bother me that Solomon needed 700 wives and 300 concubines?

[thesometimesaint]

I would also add that Joseph felt inspired to marry the young women who lived with Emma and him in Nauvoo, including Lucy Walker (age 17), Emily and Eliza Partridge (19 & 22), Sarah and Maria Lawrence (17 & 19) and Melissa Lott (age 19). In fact, I would challenge anyone to name a woman between the age of 16 - 25 who lived with the Smith's in Nauvoo who Joseph wasn't inspired to marry. 

 

God might work in mysterious ways, but there really isn't anything mysterious about that.

 

Classic Presentism.