Silhouette Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Calmoriah elaborated on other reasons why he might have lied. I don't think Joseph did a lot of "cheating" in the carnal sense. (My logic for that is that we know Joseph was fertile, there weren't a lot of birth control options back then, I don't buy the Bennett/abortion story, and there aren't many JS progeny around other than those from Emma.)While I can follow your "lesser of two evils" thought process, I am completely offended at the notion of rationalizing Joseph's sin of commission (lying) by forcing it onto an assumed sin of ommission (lack of faith) by Emma. For me, that is continuing this pattern of privileging Joseph's reputation above all else and I see no reason to do that.I did not say that I was forcing it into an assumed lack of faith on Emma's part. I'm sure there could be other reasons for Joseph lying, such as those that Calmoriah outlined. What I said was that IF it came down to one of the two reasons I mentioned, I would prefer to think that it was on Emma rather than the Prophet, and I stand by that. I never said that there could not be other reasons.If you were offended, it was because you misunderstood my comments.
Silhouette Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Maybe it was to avoid her wrath:“To my certain knowledge, Emma Smith is one of the damnedest liars I know of on this earth; yet there is no good thing I would refuse to do for her, if she would only be a righteous woman; but she will continue in her wickedness. Not six months before the death of Joseph, he called his wife Emma into a secret council, and there he told her the truth, and called upon her to deny it if she could. He told her that the judgments of God would come upon her forthwith if she did not repent. He told her of the time she undertook to poison him, and he told her that she was a child of hell, and literally the most wicked woman on this earth, that there was not one more wicked than she. He told here where she got the poison, and how she put it in a cup of coffee; said he ‘You got that poison from so and so, and I drank it, but you could not kill me.’ When it entered his stomach he went to the door and threw it off. he spoke to her in that council in a very severe manner, and she never said one word in reply. I have witnesses of this scene all around, who can testify that I am now telling the truth. Twice she undertook to kill him. [utah Historical Quarterly, vol. 48, Winter 1980, 82]Who wrote this? I don't buy it. If Joseph really did say those things to Emma in a "secret council" and "she never said one word in reply"' I can't say I blame her. Those sound like the rantings of a lunatic. She was probably fearful that he'd snap completely and do her some bodily harm.
Calm Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 I did not say that I was forcing it into an assumed lack of faith on Emma's part. I'm sure there could be other reasons for Joseph lying, such as those that Calmoriah outlined. What I said was that IF it came down to one of the two reasons I mentioned, I would prefer to think that it was on Emma rather than the Prophet, and I stand by that. I never said that there could not be other reasons.If you were offended, it was because you misunderstood my comments.That makes sense....
Ham Clam Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Who wrote this? I don't buy it. If Joseph really did say those things to Emma in a "secret council" and "she never said one word in reply"' I can't say I blame her. Those sound like the rantings of a lunatic. She was probably fearful that he'd snap completely and do her some bodily harm.I believe it's Brigham Young after they fell out.
Calm Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 (edited) Who wrote this? I don't buy it. If Joseph really did say those things to Emma in a "secret council" and "she never said one word in reply"' I can't say I blame her. Those sound like the rantings of a lunatic. She was probably fearful that he'd snap completely and do her some bodily harm.It is an example of the unhappy relationship between Brigham Young and Emma:http://en.fairmormon.org/Emma_Smith/Brigham_YoungI don't buy it either. I think he allowed his bias to accept or colour rumours he heard and there were probably others that were angry at Emma for not coming west and denying her husband taught plural marriage which cost the Church greatly, IMO, who were also willing to accept gossip as fact....and you know how gossip often grows in the telling."Through the late fall and winter of 1843 and 1844, Joseph and Emma's relationship broke down only once. During Sunday dinner on November 5, Joseph became ill, rushed to the door, and vomited so violently that he dislocated his jaw. "Every symptom of poison," Richards noted in Joseph's diary. That night at the prayer meeting, Richards, wrote in code that Joseph and Emma did not dress in the usual special clothing, a sign they were too much at odds to participate. The next day, Richards wrote that Joseph was "busy with domestic concerns." Years later, in the anti-Emma atmosphere of Utah, Brigham Young spoke of a meeting where Joseph accused his wife of slipping poison into his coffee. Brigham interpreted Emma's refusal to answer as an admission of guilt.. Though there probably was an argument, the poisoning accusation was unfounded. Joseph was susceptible to vomiting anyway. He had even dislocated his jaw while vomiting once before; and five weeks after the 1843 dinner episode, he was sick again, vomiting more violently than ever. During this last bout, Joseph said gratefully, "My wife waited on me."[2]" Edited November 22, 2014 by calmoriah
Silhouette Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 I'm glad there is valid evidence to counter this article. I guess I never knew that Emma and Brigham fell out this way, though I recently learned that she didn't go to Utah with him, and that she joined the RLDS Church.
Calm Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 If Joseph did say such things about her at the meeting, it is possible he was suffering from his early sickness and not all that rational that night. If so, it is hardly a wonder that Emma's response was silence. She would not have wanted to diminish him in front of others by telling him he was off his head with illness nor would she have wanted to discuss what she probably saw as a private family matter publicly either.
Calm Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Emma had good reasons not to go to Utah immediately, a big one being she was caring for Joseph's elderly mother who most likely would not have survived as well as a new baby who had been born almost 6 months after Joseph's death. Brigham was fighting for the Church and Emma for her family and there was much conflict over property Emma saw as her family's while Brigham saw it as the Church's. There are a number of good articles about the conflict, both had right on their side, both made mistakes, both loved Joseph and saw the other as being in conflict with what Joseph would have wanted, etc. If you are interested, I can find some for you.
Tacenda Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 (edited) Who wrote this? I don't buy it. If Joseph really did say those things to Emma in a "secret council" and "she never said one word in reply"' I can't say I blame her. Those sound like the rantings of a lunatic. She was probably fearful that he'd snap completely and do her some bodily harm.Brigham Young. ETA: oops, I guess others answered. And gave a bigger picture to the story. Edited November 22, 2014 by Tacenda
rockpond Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 I did not say that I was forcing it into an assumed lack of faith on Emma's part. I'm sure there could be other reasons for Joseph lying, such as those that Calmoriah outlined. What I said was that IF it came down to one of the two reasons I mentioned, I would prefer to think that it was on Emma rather than the Prophet, and I stand by that. I never said that there could not be other reasons.If you were offended, it was because you misunderstood my comments.No, I understood your comments. If you are forced to choose between Joseph and Emma as to who was in the wrong... You'd choose Emma. And yes, that's offensive to me since Emma is the bystander in all this. But you are in good company, the Church has overwhelmingly chosen to privelege the reputation of Joseph over all else.
Silhouette Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Emma had good reasons not to go to Utah immediately, a big one being she was caring for Joseph's elderly mother who most likely would not have survived as well as a new baby who had been born almost 6 months after Joseph's death. Brigham was fighting for the Church and Emma for her family and there was much conflict over property Emma saw as her family's while Brigham saw it as the Church's. There are a number of good articles about the conflict, both had right on their side, both made mistakes, both loved Joseph and saw the other as being in conflict with what Joseph would have wanted, etc. If you are interested, I can find some for you.Calmoriah, I don't want to put you to any trouble, but if you could, I would indeed like to read some articles about this. I admit that I am woefully ignorant of the history of the Church, despite being a member for 38 years. Nobody's fault but my own. If you like, you can private me with the links/articles so that it doesn't distract from the thread, unless you feel that others might be interested too.I am grateful for your offer to do this. Thanks very much.Melanie
Calm Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Hopefully this will work, you might have to cut and paste it, it will download a pdf file about Lewis C Bidamon, Emma's second husband with a lot of history of the family: https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/BYUStudies/article/download/5088/4738 Short bio of Emma: http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/viewEM.aspx?number=174 Ensign article about Emma by one of her descendants (I think the first to join the LDS faith): https://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/08/my-great-great-grandmother-emma-hale-smith?lang=eng About Emma in general: http://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V17N03_89.pdf DN article about the conflict and its effect on the families of both Young and Smith and an attempt to help heal the wounds: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705312649/Healing-the-rift-between-Brigham-and-Emma.html?pg=all I know I've read an article about what happened with the inheritance…still can't find it though. Will keep looking.
Nevo Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Another good article on the relationship between Emma and Brigham after Joseph's death is Valeen Tippetts Avery and Linda King Newell, "The Lion and the Lady: Brigham Young and Emma Smith," Utah HIstorical Quarterly 48, no. 1 (1980): 81–97. 1
PtolemyGlenn Posted November 23, 2014 Posted November 23, 2014 Is it that he made mistakes. Or are we in the modern ea rubbing out the past to bow to secular pressures?
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