Why Do We Need Faith?

[Brian 2.0]

I know it sounds like a dumb question...

 

We were sent here (chose to come here) for a very short span of time for the purpose of gaining a body, learning to exercise our agency appropriately, learning to communicate with the spirit in our lives, etc etc all so that we can progress and live for eternity in a way our heavenly parents do.

 

What purpose does it serve to withhold further physical evidences to aid in that quest?  Why not have the golden plates on earth and available to look at?  Why not have more frequent visitations from angels or even Christ to the masses?  

 

A lot of people move through their lives, trusting their senses and logic, not believing in any type of spiritual communication from a God, and never really cultivating it as a result.  If there were more physical evidence provided, or more miraculous events like visitations from divine beings to large, even world-wide audiences... more of those people would open themselves up to a spiritual plane and cultivate a relationship with the spirit and better their lives.

 

I'm not talking about removing the agency from anyone.  Say the golden plates existed today and linguists actually could translated it and it basically is what we have in the BOM today.  I know that wouldn't all of the sudden make everyone a Mormon.  But it would bring A LOT of people into the church and explore it more.  A LOT. 

 

And providing more evidences doesn't make the "probationary state" go away either.  Simply because we know cigarettes are bad for you doesn't mean no one smokes anymore.  There are countless people who believe numerous actions are sins and yet still find themselves sinning.  "Knowing" doesn't take away the wrestle and struggle we have to master our physical bodies or desire for sin.  But knowing certainly does help people to want to engage in the struggle because they know it has a purpose.  

 

And providing more evidences doesn't make cultivating a relationship with the spirit go away.  Having Noah appear on the shores of Malibu Beach and talking to the gathered group about the flood and giving an inspiring sermon doesn't mean I won't have to struggle with understanding what the spirit in prompting me to do in raising my kids.  The fact that I saw Noah talking on the beach actually makes me want to engage the spirit more and grow in that relationship with the spirit.

 

And when this brief moment is through and we are living for eternity without the veil we won't be questioning whether or not there is a God.  So walking in faith here isn't necessarily a pattern we're going to have to follow for the eternities.

 

 

So why not provide ample physical evidences that would convince more people to then engage in spiritual matters, to start wrestling more to exercise their agency appropriately, to really spend time cultivating a relationship with the spirit?

 

 

 

 

I know some of you might be rolling your eyes or think I'm trolling, but this is an honest question I've asked myself as a fairly recent non-believer.

 

 

[JLHPROF]

I know it sounds like a dumb question...

 

We were sent here (chose to come here) for a very short span of time for the purpose of gaining a body, learning to exercise our agency appropriately, learning to communicate with the spirit in our lives, etc etc all so that we can progress and live for eternity in a way our heavenly parents do.

 

What purpose does it serve to withhold further physical evidences to aid in that quest?  Why not have the golden plates on earth and available to look at?  Why not have more frequent visitations from angels or even Christ to the masses?  

 

A lot of people move through their lives, trusting their senses and logic, not believing in any type of spiritual communication from a God, and never really cultivating it as a result.  If there were more physical evidence provided, or more miraculous events like visitations from divine beings to large, even world-wide audiences... more of those people would open themselves up to a spiritual plane and cultivate a relationship with the spirit and better their lives.

 

Because as scripture has shown, providing proof does nothing to increase belief.  Laman and Lemuel saw an angel and still kept on their wicked ways.  The Children of Israel witnessed 10 big plagues on Egypt and the Red Sea parting and still the doubted God and Moses.  According to Mormon teachings Cain walked and talked with God and still committed murder.  Judas saw the Savior perform all sorts of miracles and still betrayed him.

 

Seeing proof does nothing to further a persons path back to God.  It does not make people open their minds to the spiritual if they are not desirous to do so in the first place.

 

 

I'm not talking about removing the agency from anyone.  Say the golden plates existed today and linguists actually could translated it and it basically is what we have in the BOM today.  I know that wouldn't all of the sudden make everyone a Mormon.  But it would bring A LOT of people into the church and explore it more.  A LOT. 

 

And providing more evidences doesn't make the "probationary state" go away either.  Simply because we know cigarettes are bad for you doesn't mean no one smokes anymore.  There are countless people who believe numerous actions are sins and yet still find themselves sinning.  "Knowing" doesn't take away the wrestle and struggle we have to master our physical bodies or desire for sin.  But knowing certainly does help people to want to engage in the struggle because they know it has a purpose.  

 

And providing more evidences doesn't make cultivating a relationship with the spirit go away.  Having Noah appear on the shores of Malibu Beach and talking to the gathered group about the flood and giving an inspiring sermon doesn't mean I won't have to struggle with understanding what the spirit in prompting me to do in raising my kids.  The fact that I saw Noah talking on the beach actually makes me want to engage the spirit more and grow in that relationship with the spirit.

 

You are not wrong in this, but while this might allow people to be more curious or interested, it would do nothing to build their spiritual strength.  They would be as an infant being spoonfed and never able to feed itself.

 

 

And when this brief moment is through and we are living for eternity without the veil we won't be questioning whether or not there is a God.  So walking in faith here isn't necessarily a pattern we're going to have to follow for the eternities.

 

So why not provide ample physical evidences that would convince more people to then engage in spiritual matters, to start wrestling more to exercise their agency appropriately, to really spend time cultivating a relationship with the spirit?

 

Actually, God, who knows all, sees all, and has all power and knowledge still operates on faith.  He speaks and has faith the elements will obey him, so he watches until he was obeyed.  He has faith that us weak mortal children of his have it within us to become like him. 

"Were this class to go back and reflect upon the history of their lives, from the period of their first recollection, and ask themselves, what principle excited them to action, or what gave them energy and activity, in all their lawful avocations, callings and pursuits, what would be the answer? Would it not be that it was the assurance which we had of the existence of things which we had not seen, as yet? Was it not the hope which you had, in consequence of your belief in the existence of unseen things, which stimulated you to action and exertion, in order to obtain them? Are you not dependent on your faith, or belief, for the acquisition of all knowledge, wisdom and intelligence? Would you exert yourselves to obtain wisdom and intelligence, unless you did believe that you could obtain them? Would you have ever sown if you had not believed that you would reap? Would you have ever planted if you had not believed that you would gather? Would you have ever asked unless you had believed that you would receive? Would you have ever sought unless you had believed that you would have found? Or would you have ever knocked unless you had believed that it would have been opened unto you? In a word, is there any thing that you would have done, either physical or mental, if you had not previously believed? Are not all your exertions, of every kind, dependent on your faith? Or may we not ask, what have you, or what do you possess, which you have not obtained by reason of your faith? Your food, your raiment, your lodgings, are they not all by reason of your faith? Reflect, and ask yourselves, if these things are not so." First Lecture On Faith

[Brian 2.0]

Because as scripture has shown, providing proof does nothing to increase belief.  Laman and Lemuel saw an angel and still kept on their wicked ways.  The Children of Israel witnessed 10 big plagues on Egypt and the Red Sea parting and still the doubted God and Moses.  According to Mormon teachings Cain walked and talked with God and still committed murder.  Judas saw the Savior perform all sorts of miracles and still betrayed him.

 

Seeing proof does nothing to further a persons path back to God.  It does not make people open their minds to the spiritual if they are not desirous to do so in the first place.

 

Sure it can.  Not always, or to everyone, but it can.  Your examples are simply showing the ones that did not.  The other extreme is from the BOM after Christ visited the Nephites:

 

4 Nephi 1:2  And it came to pass in the thirty and sixth year, the people were all converted unto the Lord, upon all the face of the land, both Nephites and Lamanites, and there were no contentions and disputations among them, and every man did deal justly one with another.

You can't tell me the visit of Christ didn't have an impact there.  Seeing proof does a lot more than "nothing" to further a persons path back to God.  It may just be the first step in a process, but it definitely helps.

 

You are not wrong in this, but while this might allow people to be more curious or interested, it would do nothing to build their spiritual strength.  They would be as an infant being spoonfed and never able to feed itself.

 

Then the truly converted teach them how to feed themselves.  Plenty of people join the church for other reasons than spiritual conversions (boyfriend, raised LDS, logically it makes sense to them, etc) who end up becoming spiritually converted later.   

 

 

 

Actually, God, who knows all, sees all, and has all power and knowledge still operates on faith.  He speaks and has faith the elements will obey him, so he watches until he was obeyed.  He has faith that us weak mortal children of his have it within us to become like him. 

"Were this class to go back and reflect upon the history of their lives, from the period of their first recollection, and ask themselves, what principle excited them to action, or what gave them energy and activity, in all their lawful avocations, callings and pursuits, what would be the answer? Would it not be that it was the assurance which we had of the existence of things which we had not seen, as yet? Was it not the hope which you had, in consequence of your belief in the existence of unseen things, which stimulated you to action and exertion, in order to obtain them? Are you not dependent on your faith, or belief, for the acquisition of all knowledge, wisdom and intelligence? Would you exert yourselves to obtain wisdom and intelligence, unless you did believe that you could obtain them? Would you have ever sown if you had not believed that you would reap? Would you have ever planted if you had not believed that you would gather? Would you have ever asked unless you had believed that you would receive? Would you have ever sought unless you had believed that you would have found? Or would you have ever knocked unless you had believed that it would have been opened unto you? In a word, is there any thing that you would have done, either physical or mental, if you had not previously believed? Are not all your exertions, of every kind, dependent on your faith? Or may we not ask, what have you, or what do you possess, which you have not obtained by reason of your faith? Your food, your raiment, your lodgings, are they not all by reason of your faith? Reflect, and ask yourselves, if these things are not so." First Lecture On Faith

 

 

 

You're right.  I should amend my previous statement.  We will still use faith throughout the eternities, but in some things our faith will turn into knowledge.  I would think we'd have knowledge that God exists in the eternities, and not faith.  Same things happens in this life according to Alma 32:

 

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

 34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

If you saw Noah appear on Malibu Beach preaching, or through someone's iPhone as they filmed it, you might not have perfect knowledge that it was Noah, but pretty close.  But you'd still utilize faith in your life to put to the test the things that Noah said to you on that beach.  Knowing you talked with Noah doesn't take away the faith it takes to pay your tithing 3 years later when you've lost your job.

[The Nehor]

I can think of a few reasons.

 

1) God's judgement is less harsh without proof.

 

2) Part of the test is developing the spiritual sensitivity to find faith.

 

3) To protect the Church. History shows that enemies of the gospel are much more vicious once proof shows up. Jesus got heckled a lot but did not die until he raised a man 3 days dead to prove his divine power. Same with Nephi in the Book of Mormon raising his brother from the dead; doing so brought down persecution.

 

4) To protect people from flocking to the church and taking on covenants once it is proven without the spiritual strength to back up those covenants and damning themselves. This has the added bonus of keeping the less-active Home Teaching list shorter.

 

That being said I believe that in time proof will be offered before the end.

[JLHPROF]

That being said I believe that in time proof will be offered before the end.

 

 

Some certainly will - "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ".

No more argument.

[The Nehor]

Some certainly will - "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ".

No more argument.

 

True, but I mostly meant stuff coming forward before the Second Coming. The Book of Mormon suggests that evidence and more writings will come forth validating the Bible (and possibly the Book of Mormon?) proving it true. I expect God will do it as a warning before the BIG calamities descend.

[Brian 2.0]

I can think of a few reasons.

 

1) God's judgement is less harsh without proof.

 

I want to think more on your other reasons but this one is fascinating to me.

 

If God's choices are all for our maximum benefit, then the question of how much proof would have been a cost/benefit analysis.  Zero proof means hardly anyone, if anyone, finds the path.  Too much and you'll get the people to the path and would have gotten there with less proof, but now you've brought a harsher judgement on the ones that didn't believe despite the proofs.  So what we have now (biblical events, recorded Christ visits, BOM witnesses, whatever you want to classify as proofs) is the the most optimal amount of "global" proofs according to that cost/benefit analysis.

 

Of course that is analyzing all of God's children as a whole, so it can get "messy" or "unfair" when at the individual level so you'd want to compensate by providing "individualized" proofs to some.

 

Anyways... I'm speaking train of thought here now so I should stop.  Your point might not have been along these lines at all anyway.

[JLHPROF]

Perhaps God wants us to choose to follow His gospel because its teachings are beneficial, good, and bring joy.  And he wants us to do it because we choose to of our own free will.  Not because we can't deny the evidence of its truth.

 

If we all knew by seeing that God, heaven, hell, and all the gospel was true, we WOULD lose our agency to choose good from evil.  We would choose good to avoid hell, and often for no other reason.  When it is much better to evaluate the two and come to the conclusion that God and his good is always the better choice.

[Guest]

To address the OP...often times I read (as you wrote) that one of the primary reasons for coming here is to gain a body. We should mention more that we were sent here to learn to and experience...

Love

Compassion

To serve

To enjoy life

To feel pleasure

To learn from pain

To be amazed

To learn from our victories and failures

And on and on...indeed gaining a body helps greatly to experience all these things, but having a soul allows us to feel and understand more.

[MormonFreeThinker]

I know some of you might be rolling your eyes or think I'm trolling, but this is an honest question I've asked myself as a fairly recent non-believer.

 

Faith is necessary because it is an eternal principle and law. God did not create the eternal laws that we must learn to obey to become superior and perfectly benevolent. 

 

 

And providing more evidences doesn't make the "probationary state" go away either.  

 

I agree, but we need to have faith in our mortal state. We have many states

1. Before we are born

2. mortality

3. spirit world

4. millennium.  

[stemelbow]

I've asked this question of myself a lot. Don't know that I have the best answer.

As of now, I assume God operates on faith in all things. He does not know what I will do, on my take. He has faith that even if I slip and fall I will employ repentance and come back to Him, even if He knows at some point I could find myself chained by the devil's ways and be lost forever. Any sort of poking or prodding on His part are works of faith. If it works that way between He and I, it works that way between He and each individual.

Reciprocity, harmony, lack of enmity. We need to learn that and to do so we must learn to cultivate faith in ourselves.

[Avatar4321]

Because otherwise we sit around doing nothing

[Brian 2.0]

Faith is necessary because it is an eternal principle and law. God did not create the eternal laws that we must learn to obey to become superior and perfectly benevolent. 

 

 

 

I agree, but we need to have faith in our mortal state. We have many states

1. Before we are born

2. mortality

3. spirit world

4. millennium.  

 

In thinking on these states, does one think that it's possible to a "believer" for lack of a better word in states 1, 3, and 4 but not in 2?  Spirit World (3) is a little tough to call because we don't know exactly what extent the veil is in place or how much or what we will "know" just by being there.

 

In states 1 and 4 you have "proofs" you don't have here.  Heavenly Father is right there in the pre-mortal world.  A resurrected Jesus is right there in the Millennium.  I can see people that would willingly follow in those states, but in mortality with the veil they aren't "believers" but they're living the best path they feel is right -- they don't have ill intentions at all.  This even includes some former believers who no longer believe.  I can't envision a God that would damn the progression of those people in the later states because of that choice, if it was an honest choice to do what they felt was right.

[TOmNossor]

Brian 2.0,

I think the eternality of faith as a force in the universe is part of the answer.

Living by faith is a way God lives and it is a way He invites us to live.

Also, miracles and certainty CAN result in God the big buddy who solves all our problems when God wants us to choose Him out of love not self-interest.

 

I have really enjoyed a recent parable I heard.

 

You are out in your car and in the blizzard, it breaks down.

You call AAA to come help, but they say they are quite busy and it will be at least 3 hours before they can get there.

You call your friend.  He leaves his house and comes straight there.  He cannot start the your car, but instead of heading back home he sits with you in the car and waits.  You are both cold and shivering, but you begin to discuss the day's events and then more general things.  He talks to you about where you were headed and helps you make other plans.  He listens to your frustration about your car and other difficulties.  Later he is just listening and discussing your life with you. 

Time passes somewhat quickly and before you know it 4.5 hours after calling AAA they show up.  After 10min your car is up and running and you and your friend say goodbye for now heading to your homes/duties.

 

Who are you more thankful for, your friend or AAA?

 

It seems to me that the unbeliever often expect the AAA God, but God is the friend.

 

Horrible sin is in the world, what does God do?  He sends His son to live with us for a while, suffer and die.  Sounds like the friend more than AAA.

 

 

Is anything above here the perfect answer to your query?  I do not think so.  I do not think I have the perfect answer.  The above gives me a framework in which I can glimpse upon the answer, but that is it.

 

Sometimes, I feel like I should understand EVERYTHING.  I cannot remember a subject upon which an expert could not teach me such that I understood.  But, there are aspects of God's plan I cannot perfectly grasp.

I generally believe that this is to be expected.  I have been in the audience of humans much more intelligent than I am who could not get their message across to some folks they were trying to teach.  I am also quite certain that I would never be able to teach long division to my dog (though I understand long division quite thoroughly and it makes perfect sense).  If God is what I think He is, there are subjects we cannot grasp in the way my dog cannot grasp long division.  So for some things, I am content to "glimpse upon the answer."

 

Charity, TOm

[danielwoods]

I think the analogy of the rich Prince searching for a bride is applicable to this question. 

 

The difficulty of finding a bride who will love the Prince for who he is, and not his power or money or other things he might have is great. How to overcome such a difficulty?

The answer is to hide his wealth and power and prestige. In hiding those he presents only himself to his potential brides, so that if they respond to him alone, he knows it's true love and not because of his great wealth, because as far as they know, he is like them. 

 

God has a similar difficulty. He desires to share true unconditional love with us. He has all power and wealth, and no needs, but knows that the only way to share that true love is by keeping himself largely hidden. Otherwise people follow him for selfish reasons, which doesn't result in a unconditional love relationship. 

[bluebell]

I think the analogy of the rich Prince searching for a bride is applicable to this question.

The difficulty of finding a bride who will love the Prince for who he is, and not his power or money or other things he might have is great. How to overcome such a difficulty?

The answer is to hide his wealth and power and prestige. In hiding those he presents only himself to his potential brides, so that if they respond to him alone, he knows it's true love and not because of his great wealth, because as far as they know, he is like them.

God has a similar difficulty. He desires to share true unconditional love with us. He has all power and wealth, and no needs, but knows that the only way to share that true love is by keeping himself largely hidden. Otherwise people follow him for selfish reasons, which doesn't result in a unconditional love relationship.

So do you believe then that God wants us to have faith in Him because it served His needs?

I'm also wondering how this analogy works with the Christian doctrine that God is all knowing and already knows who will love Him for Him and not for His power and wealth.

[danielwoods]

So do you believe then that God wants us to have faith in Him because it served His needs?

I'm also wondering how this analogy works with the Christian doctrine that God is all knowing and already knows who will love Him for Him and not for His power and wealth.

 

God has no needs, so to speak. He desires to share the love that the Godhead already have. 

 

God already knows, but doesn't control based on that knowledge. In essence if he did that, he would be undermining the very purpose of his creating us in the first place (to share unconditional love). 

[CV75]

So why not provide ample physical evidences that would convince more people to then engage in spiritual matters, to start wrestling more to exercise their agency appropriately, to really spend time cultivating a relationship with the spirit?

I think the justifications you offer that call for working more physical evidences into our probationary state also justify why the test is not about the quantity of physical evidence.

 

Because we are already eternal, spiritual beings tested in this brief physical realm, a lot of physical evidence isn’t relevant, just a physical place to be tested in. We all experience that if our physical brains and faculties are operating. A particle of physical evidence matches up fine with the particle of faith that is required for our return to God.

 

No evidence is withheld; in the fallen physical world, things just proceed naturally unless the Lord intervenes (not intervening is not withholding).

 

If physical evidence alone doesn’t necessarily change behavior, adding more won't encourage faith; physical evidence without spiritual sense is spiritually meaningless.

 

We all have and exercise a spiritual capacity (our sense our right and wrong) without much external physical evidence at all. We won't hit someone on the head to get their food because from our own experience, we know it hurts to get hit on the head and to be hungry and there are other ways to get food.

 

I do think that some people will continue to question whether God is really God, or a God, in the afterlife, as evidenced by not adopting His plan for them. Though they bow the knee and confess, they are really their own God, or choose their own God (whoever it is that is ministering to their kingdom).

 

Evidence does not convince people to follow God; they already do by virtue of the light of Christ they are born with and retain, but then unfortunately they start to change away from that. God only condemns us for the light we reject, not for the additional light we don't have.

 

While faith and knowledge interact with each other, the knowledge doesn’t have to be physical, it can be spiritual knowledge like our conscience. We all have a body which provides us with the physical knowledge we need to be tested.

[MormonFreeThinker]

In states 1 and 4 you have "proofs" you don't have here.  Heavenly Father is right there in the pre-mortal world.  

 

Yes, we need to have faith in mortality. Faith was not necessary in the pre-mortal world. 

 

 

  I can't envision a God that would damn the progression of those people in the later states because of that choice, if it was an honest choice to do what they felt was right.

 

He won't.  

 

There are many voices which come into our lives seeking our attention. There is the voice of pleasure, the voice of fashion, and the voice of lust. There is also the voice of counsel and the voice of the Spirit. Learning to listen to the correct voice is truly a challenge of mortality"

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-instructors-guide-religion-324-325/the-spirit-of-revelation-lesson-5-sections-6-8-9?lang=eng

 

For the people that never learn to recognize the spirit, perhaps it is because they will not be happy living a God-like life. 

For example, in the mission field many missionaries are very happy to serve, but some are not happy and go home.  

 

See 

 

"Through repentance and righteous living, you can prepare to be comfortable in God’s presence." 

https://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-study-guide-for-home-study-seminary-students/mormon/unit-29-day-2-mormon-9?lang=eng

[cdowis]

del  

Edited November 19, 2014 by cdowis