cursor Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) I cannot realistically believe that you all in never-never-land possibly/plausibly imagined that with 30+ wives, Joseph refrained from sex with any but his first. I love my singular wife of 50+, and there will be no other. Edited January 7, 2015 by cursor
Nevo Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 Okay Tacenda... I'm going to give you a CFR on the "written history" of people saying he had children other than with Emma... who are these people and please cite their written history that you refer to... Perhaps Tacenda is thinking of the following information on Brian Hales's website: Reviewing available evidence supports the birth of two, possibly three children to Joseph Smith and his plural wives. Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner stated: “I know he [Joseph Smith] had three children. They told me. I think two are living today but they are not known as his children as they go by other names.” On another occasion, she declared: “I don’t know about his having children, but I heard of three that he was the father of.” A second-hand account from Lucy Meserve Smith (wife of Apostle George A. Smith) in Nauvoo recalls that her husband “related to me the circumstance of calling on the Prophet one evening about 11, o clock, and he was out on the porch with a basin of water washing his hands, I said to him what is up, said Joseph one of my wives has just been confined and Emma was midwife and I have been assisting her. He said she had granted a no. of women for him.” The best evidence supports the birth of a daughter, Josephine Lyon, to plural wife Sylvia Sessions in 1844. She is the only known offspring to live to adulthood. The second is a child to Olive Frost that did not live long or may have miscarried. Joseph E. Robinson wrote: During the afternoon I called on Aunt Lizzie . . . she knew Joseph Smith had more than two wives. Said he married . . . Olive Frost [and] had a child by him and that both died. 1
Garden Girl Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 Perhaps Tacenda is thinking of the following information on Brian Hales's website: Thank you Nevo... I had only heard about the possibility of Silvia Sessions' daughter... and that no DNA has been found today in spite of efforts as cited by Robert F. Smith... GG
Tacenda Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) Thank you Nevo... I had only heard about the possibility of Silvia Sessions' daughter... and that no DNA has been found today in spite of efforts as cited by Robert F. Smith...GGI'll second the thank you to Nevo. I had some dental work today, ouch! So laying on the couch away from a computer until I feel better. I was going to answer your CFR tomorrow. There are some quotes I could add, but Hales is an amazing historian and very thorough. If the link and information from Nevo works I'll relax, ha ha. But if not I can send more. Edited January 8, 2015 by Tacenda
Garden Girl Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 I'll second the thank you to Nevo. I had some dental work today, ouch! So laying on the couch away from a computer until I feel better. I was going to answer your CFR tomorrow. There are some quotes I could add, but Hales is an amazing historian and very thorough. If the link and information from Nevo works I'll relax, ha ha. But if not I can send more. I'll check out Hales full website... I agree he is a good historial...Sorry you're in pain... dental work can be iffy... I was amazed at the last root canal I had... no pain, even after. GG
Tacenda Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 I'll check out Hales full website... I agree he is a good historial...Sorry you're in pain... dental work can be iffy... I was amazed at the last root canal I had... no pain, even after. GGNo root canal thank heavens, I've had 3. My tooth cracked (previous crown) and had it fixed with a temporary, then 2 cavities filled, so no biggie, just tired and the numbing is wearing off, so tender. Glad you had the pain free root canal. I was put under once and had two root canals at the same time, it was the way to go!
why me Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) " not one woman said any disparaging words against him after he died"Do you mean of those actually sealed to him, because plenty of women had bad things to say about him, a few had even known him.I am not saying they were right, but hyperbole does not help in the long run to resolve issues.I was speaking about the wives of Joseph Smith and not all the women who knew him. But since plenty of women did say bad things about but not his wives that may speak volumes about the relationship that he had with his wives. Edited January 8, 2015 by why me
Robert F. Smith Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 What can I say, but my wife will be 53 years old this month ... and she is definitely HOT. She is without doubt a "trophy wife." Not only that, but she is a senior biomedical engineer to boot! The simplicity of age is hardly a measure of attractiveness.I'm just saying, cursor, that guys in their 30s (Joseph was in his 30s) don't very often find women in their 50s attractive, except in Hollywood. Being that everything is relative, perspectives do change, but only us old guys know that.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 Thank you Nevo... I had only heard about the possibility of Silvia Sessions' daughter... and that no DNA has been found today in spite of efforts as cited by Robert F. Smith... GGSee the work of geneticist Ugo A. Perego at http://www.josephsmithdna.com/external-links.html, which lists four documents on Joseph Smith DNA.
Garden Girl Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) duplicate post... Edited January 8, 2015 by Garden Girl
Garden Girl Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 Thanks RFS... very interesting...And I suggest that Tacenda take a look also... GG
ERayR Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 I cannot realistically believe that you all in never-never-land possibly/plausibly imagined that with 30+ wives, Joseph refrained from sex with any but his first. I love my singular wife of 50+, and there will be no other. Why all the fuss about JS having sex with his wives? It is what most married couples do. 3
Tacenda Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 See the work of geneticist Ugo A. Perego at http://www.josephsmithdna.com/external-links.html, which lists four documents on Joseph Smith DNA.Would you mind giving some quotes that dismiss the information given in Brian Hale's article and others. Here is a c/p quote from this website: http://mormon-chronicles.blogspot.com/2006/10/overview-of-joseph-smiths-wives.html excerpts from Compton's book. For instance, Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner stated that she knew ofchildren born to Smith's plural wives: "I know he had six wives and Ihave known some of them from childhood up. I know he had threechildren. They told me. I think two are living today but they are notknown as his children as they go by other names." Melissa Lott Willestestified that she had been Smith's wife "in very deed." EmilyPartridge Young said she "roomed" with Joseph the night following hermarriage to him, and said that she had "carnal intercourse" with him.Other early witnesses also affirmed this. Benjamin Johnson wrote "Onthe 15th of May ... the Prophet again Came and at my hosue [house]ocupied the Same Room & Bed with my Sister that the month previous hehad ocupied with the Daughter of the Later Bishop Partridge as hiswife." According to Joseph Bates Noble, Smith told him he had spent anight with Louisa Beaman.When Angus Cannon, a Salt Lake City stake president, visited JosephSmith III in 1905, the RLDS president asked rhetorically if thesewomen were his father's wives, then "how was it that there was noissue from them." Cannon replied:All I knew was that which Lucy Walker herself contends. They were sonervous and lived in such constant fear that they could not conceive.He made light of my reply. He said, "I am informed that Eliza Snow wasa virgin at the time of her death." I in turn said, "Brother Heber C.Kimball, I am informed, asked her the question if she was not a virginalthough married to Joseph Smith and afterwards to Brigham Young, whenshe replied in a private gathering, 'I thought you knew Joseph Smithbetter than that.'"Cannon then mentioned that Sylvia Sessions Lyon, a plural wife ofSmith, had had a child by him, Josephine Lyon Fisher. Josephine leftan affidavit stating that her mother, Sylvia, when on her deathbed,told her that she (Josephine) was the daughter of Joseph Smith. Inaddition, posterity (i.e., sexuality) was an important theologicalelement in Smith's Abrahamic-promise justification for polygamy.Since there is a great deal of evidence that Joseph Smith had sexualrelations with his wives, one wonders why he did not have morepolygamous children. However, some of his children apparently grew upunder other names, as Mary Lightner suggested. Furthermore, he may nothave had numerous posterity because he was not able to visit his wivesregularly, both because he was often hiding from the law and becauseEmma, his first wife, watched him carefully. In addition, polygamy wasillegal. On top of these pressures, he soon had many wives, which madeit more difficult to visit all of them frequently and regularly. Sincepolygamists generally had favorite wives, Smith probably neglectedsome of his. Finally, some of his wives were married to other men inpolyandrous relationships, so such wives would probably have hadchildren by their "first husbands," with whom they were cohabitingregularly, not by Joseph. All of these factors would have combined tolimit the number of his children. However, it is clear that some ofhis plural wives did have children by him, if we can rely on thestatements of George A. Smith, Josephine Fisher, and ElizabethLightner.
Kenngo1969 Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) Why all the fuss about JS having sex with his wives? It is what most married couples do. Wull, y'see, havin' sex with yer wahf's only OK if yer monogin'! Havin' sex with yer wahf when yer polygin', wull, that's baaaad! (Sorry; Couldn't resist! ) Edited January 8, 2015 by Kenngo1969
Nevo Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 Thank you Nevo... I had only heard about the possibility of Silvia Sessions' daughter... and that no DNA has been found today in spite of efforts as cited by Robert F. Smith... GG Perego's efforts have only ruled out potential offspring that were long-shots in the first place. As Don Bradley noted on this board a couple of years ago, "of the several alleged descendants tested and disconfirmed, most never had much chance of being Joseph's anyway." Several were born to mothers who were never plural wives of the Prophet or were born long before their mothers were sealed to the Prophet. The most likely candidate tested was Josephine Lyon, and the results there were inconclusive. Other strong candidates, such as Olive Frost's child and perhaps Fanny Alger's, left no descendants and therefore cannot be tested. 1
why me Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) I hope that the OP is benefiting from a polygamy discussion. The thread has become more like a discussion thread than a support thread. Polygamy was only one aspect of JSs life. He accomplished much in his short life. Since none of his plural wives said anything negative about him that we know of and since emma carried a locket around her neck with piece of his hair as a memory, after his murder, we can assume that all was well and maybe we are missing something about his polygamy. Edited January 8, 2015 by why me
Guest Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 I've been struggling since 2010, and especially since late 2012. I'm tired. I just don't know if I can "make it all work" in my head anymore. I won't relay the issues I struggle with, as they are, for the most part, the usual. At last, though, with the release of the new essays on plural marriage, I feel like I can no longer make it work. If it were anyone but Joseph Smith, would we try to come up with reasons why marriages weren't "sexual" or what not? I love the Joseph Smith I grew up with. I still love the idea of that Joseph Smith. I know I've felt the Spirit of God in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But, at the end of the day, if Joseph was a sexual predator (which I'm not saying he was, but the evidence can certainly be interpreted that way), then isn't the whole thing built on a false foundation? I'm 34 years old. I concede that teenage young women (post-pubescent) can be attractive. But were I to ask one on a date I'd go to jail (rightfully so). Yet at Church, I sit and wonder how many members, even with the new essays, would be able to handle this information. Yes, I understand the marriage to Helen Mar Kimball may have been dynastic or unconsummated, but it also may HAVE been consummated. How do I deal with this without feeling like I'm just turning off my brain, and reasoning? I know this forum isn't a support group, but I don't know where to turn. How do I "trust" my spiritual experiences when so much factual information seems to fly in the face of them?Did you have a testimony at one time...did it come from the Holy Spirit? I ask because if so, God knew everything that you would later learn. So your testimony was given with everything know. I get that some things may be shocking, maybe even sinful...but known by God, the hour you when God reveled to you that the BoM was true, that the Church was true. Also in Joseph's day it was not shocking to marry a 14 year old...although I believe it was a sealing. But my grandmother married at 13 to a 21 year old man. This was in 1905, they had 9 children and were married 61 years, and my grandfather was a deacon. I think most of Joseph's "wives" were just sealings. The odds against him getting Emma pregnant 11 times and no other "wife" having a child stretches the imagination. At the same time he was have younger women to him, he was also having women decades older than he was. Either was for all of us, "The hour I (we) first believed" (from Amazing Grace) God knew all when he gave us that witness. Hope this helps.
Garden Girl Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) Hello drums12...I just went back and read your original post, and yes this has turned into yet another polygamy discussion... sorry. I reiterate my original post (#3) where I encourage you to look at the total picture of the gospel as revealed to Joseph Smith... the Plan of Salvation... the BoM, the WoW, and more... the Joseph Smith you love is still there... and in the here and now as the prophet of the restoration.And when you consider the context of his times vs ours, there is a big difference in how we view a younger woman marrying an older man... I've told previously about my very famous Great-gr-gr-Aunt, 15 year old Concepcion Arguello (google her) who fell in love with (1805) 42 year old Nikolai Rezanov (Chamberlain to the Russian Tsar). The story of their romance has become ledgendary in California history... the only reason they did not marry was he was killed on his way to obtain permission of the Tsar to marry "Concha." My family had sent letters to the Pope for permission... not only was it a true romance, it would be a very political alliance between Spain and Russia here in the "new world."I'm puzzled at times about the different view of Joseph and Fanny Alger in view of Concha and Rezanov when considered in context of their time... you can hardly pick up a Calif history book without seeing some reference lauding their romance... poems have been written about them... I understand a movie is being considered... they just held a contest for artists to submit concepts for a statue honoring them to be erected at the San Francisco Presidio (where Concha lived with her father, my 4th Gr Grandfather, who was Commandante). It is the same in Russia.Historians write that Concha was conceded to be "one of the most beautiful women in all of New Spain... She "possessed lustrous black hair and languid eyes... a skin of palest olive... and a matchless figure, united to a remarkedly sweet and tender disposition that made her a favorite of all who knew her."No one bats an eye at the age difference between Concha and Rezanov, but Joseph is pilloried... it just was not that uncommon for women in his day to marry older men. Context... GG Edited January 8, 2015 by Garden Girl 2
cursor Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 I know this forum isn't a support group, but I don't know where to turn. How do I "trust" my spiritual experiences when so much factual information seems to fly in the face of them? There's no reason why it cannot be a support group, drums12. I can identify with your experience and current frustration. I feel for you. The personal reference point for clarity, for personal enlightenment, and for what we should do next is a function of awareness of where we have been ... awareness of where we've individually screwed up, and awareness of where others' projected life experiences don't seem to make sense (or does in fact make some sense).
why me Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 Hello drums12...I just went back and read your original post, and yes this has turned into yet another polygamy discussion... sorry. I reiterate my original post (#3) where I encourage you to look at the total picture of the gospel as revealed to Joseph Smith... the Plan of Salvation... the BoM, the WoW, and more... the Joseph Smith you love is still there... and in the here and now as the prophet of the restoration.And when you consider the context of his times vs ours, there is a big difference in how we view a younger woman marrying an older man... I've told previously about my very famous Great-gr-gr-Aunt, 15 year old Concepcion Arguello (google her) who fell in love with (1805) 42 year old Nikolai Rezanov (Chamberlain to the Russian Tsar). The story of their romance has become ledgendary in California history... the only reason they did not marry was he was killed on his way to obtain permission of the Tsar to marry "Concha." My family had sent letters to the Pope for permission... not only was it a true romance, it would be a very political alliance between Spain and Russia here in the "new world."I'm puzzled at times about the different view of Joseph and Fanny Alger in view of Concha and Rezanov when considered in context of their time... you can hardly pick up a Calif history book without seeing some reference lauding their romance... poems have been written about them... I understand a movie is being considered... they just held a contest for artists to submit concepts for a statue honoring them to be erected at the San Francisco Presidio (where Concha lived with her father, my 4th Gr Grandfather, who was Commandante). It is the same in Russia.Historians write that Concha was conceded to be "one of the most beautiful women in all of New Spain... She "possessed lustrous black hair and languid eyes... a skin of palest olive... and a matchless figure, united to a remarkedly sweet and tender disposition that made her a favorite of all who knew her."No one bats an eye at the age difference between Concha and Rezanov, but Joseph is pilloried... it just was not that uncommon for women in his day to marry older men. Context... GGInteresting. We also need to remember that Fanny had the permission of her family to be sealed to Joseph Smith. And her brother, and parents remained active members of the lds church. And to my understanding were proud that Fanny was sealed to Joseph. I don't think that this relationship between fanny and joseph was sordid at all. I would think that fanny would be the first to tell her parents so that they would not remain a member of the church. And she would probably tell her husband too. But no such thing happened to my knowledge. And she seems to have lived a good life with her husband bearing a few children. And when asked by one of her son's about her relationship with Joseph, she replied that it was her own business.
canard78 Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 I heard that Pres. Uchtdorf has had a hand in historical issues becoming more transparent. His son in law is Michael Ash, the author of the book helping people with crisis of faith, just forgot the name of it. Shaken Faith Syndrome, Mike keeps the relationship quiet though. Nephew, not son-in-law. Elder Uchtdorf's Sister is Christel Uchtdorf Ash, Martin Ash's Mum https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=843482369048473&set=a.653928564670522.1073741827.100001601537323&type=1&theater https://www.lds.org/ensign/2008/07/president-dieter-f-uchtdorf-a-family-man-a-man-of-faith-a-man-foreordained?lang=eng
Tacenda Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 Nephew, not son-in-law. Elder Uchtdorf's Sister is Christel Uchtdorf Ash, Martin Ash's Mum https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=843482369048473&set=a.653928564670522.1073741827.100001601537323&type=1&theater https://www.lds.org/ensign/2008/07/president-dieter-f-uchtdorf-a-family-man-a-man-of-faith-a-man-foreordained?lang=engJuliann set me straight, but thanks for your efforts too!
AllFlavors Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Dear Drums -Polygamy was simply wrong and a mistake, but due to our upbringing we have been led to believe that prophets don't make mistakes. Joseph Smith would have been the first to tell you he was very flawed and made many mistakes, just like all prophets past, present and future. Polygamy just happens to be a very big mistake. Remember Joseph Smith did many great and inspiring things. He taught that we are never required to trust any man, including himself, but we can talk to God and get revelation from God DIRECTLY, just like he did. God will tell you what you need to do if you can put aside the baggage you have collected about how a relationship with God works, (i.e. if you don't get the right answer you are doing something wrong). Dropping baggage was the single most important thing I did when facing doubt. I sincerely hope you to stay with us. That you help us build a new future for our tribe. But its not for me to say if this is your path. You must be true to yourself, God and your path. Good Luck and God Bless
cursor Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Very nice and supportive comments, AllFlavors.
Buzzard Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 I'm actually glad for polygamy, since I am descended from polygamous ancestors. Who knows where I would be if it wasn't for second wives? While in the hospital last week, I read "Rough Stone Rolling", that my daughter had given me for Christmas. I have to agree with Brother Joseph-no man knows his history. But he was a prophet in every sense of the word, and after the incident with Martin Harris and the 116 lost pages, took to heart the principle of doing whatever the Lord commands, even if it went against everything he had heretofore believed in.Frankly. I am at peace with polygamy. The only thing that was a head scratcher for me was the polyandry, and I am convinced that those were sealings rather than marriages. I know reasonable people may differ. But I am utterly, totally convinced that the Book of Mormon is of ancient origin and is revealed scripture, and from there, everything else falls into place. 1
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