Ok - Seriously. Where Do You (Evangelical) Guys Get This Stuff.

[saemo]

Does the fact that God the Father created the being who became Satan make Him (God) guilty by association as well? It seems to me that if the logic of the anti-Mormons is sound, we have a lot more to fear from the being who created Satan than from the One who is merely the evil Satan's godfearing and obedient brother. And are all the righteous angels who weren't cast out of heaven, because they remained loyal to God, also tainted with some sort of stain because they are the brothers of Satan?

This logic doesn't work at all.

 

God created us, and the angels. We and the angels are capable of acting against God, because God created us with free will to act in cooperation with His will, or choose to go against it. God did not create Satan as an evil being, Satan chose to act against God, and was cast out of heaven. We have the same choice, act against God, or in cooperation with God. God created us to love Him, but God is not going to force our love, as forced love, is no love at all.

 

Jesus IS God. God is not created. God does not against Himself.

Edited October 8, 2014 by saemo

[Vance]

This logic doesn't work at all.

 

God created us, and the angels. We and the angels are capable of acting against God, because God created us with free will to act in cooperation with His will, or choose to go against it. God did not create Satan as an evil being, Satan chose to act against God, and was cast out of heaven. We have the same choice, act against God, or in cooperation with God. God created us to love Him, but God is not going to force our love, as forced love, is no love at all.

 

Jesus IS God. God is not created. God does not against Himself.

This logic doesn't work at all.

If God created us from nothing, then we can NOT have free will. We are what He created us to be, nothing more, nothing less.

If creation ex nihilo is true, then God is responsible for all evil. If we choose evil, it is because God created us to do it. We are not responsible, He is.

If God created us to love Him, then we would love Him, we would have no choice.

Creation ex nihilo and "free will" are mutually exclusive. That is what is logical.

[teddyaware]

This logic doesn't work at all.

 

God created us, and the angels. We and the angels are capable of acting against God, because God created us with free will to act in cooperation with His will, or choose to go against it. God did not create Satan as an evil being, Satan chose to act against God, and was cast out of heaven. We have the same choice, act against God, or in cooperation with God. God created us to love Him, but God is not going to force our love, as forced love, is no love at all.

 

Jesus IS God. God is not created. God does not against Himself.

You've largely made my point form me.

Further. Just because Jesus had brethren on earth, that fact didn't make Him any less God during His earthly ministry...

12 After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days. (John 2)

And just because there are other sons of God in heaven, that fact doesn't make Christ any less God there either...

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38)

So the whole guilt by association routine falls apart, just as you've said.

Edited October 8, 2014 by teddyaware

[cdowis]

This logic doesn't work at all.

 

God created us, and the angels. We and the angels are capable of acting against God, because God created us with free will to act in cooperation with His will, or choose to go against it. God did not create Satan as an evil being, Satan chose to act against God, and was cast out of heaven. We have the same choice, act against God, or in cooperation with God. God created us to love Him, but God is not going to force our love, as forced love, is no love at all.

 

Jesus IS God. God is not created. God does not against Himself.

 

The Lord, as you would agree, certainly knew what kind of "angel" that Satan would become == a completely destructive agent against His plan.  Why did He not create another Michael instead?  

 

Help me understand your logic.  Your logic seems to lead me to think God did not know the outcome of His creation, OR had no control over what He created, OR knowingly created a creature "against Himself".  At best, He was indifferent to the outcome of the creation of Satan.

 

Help me understand.  For me, your logic just doesn't work at all with the belief in an all-knowing, omnipotent Creator.

Edited October 8, 2014 by cdowis

[saemo]

You've largely made my point form me.

Further. Just because Jesus had brethren on earth, that fact didn't make Him any less God during His earthly ministry...

12 After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days. (John 2)

And just because there are other sons of God in heaven, that fact doesn't make Christ any less God there either...

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38)

So the whole guilt by association routine falls apart, just as you've said.

 

 

You are begotten of your parents, not made. Jesus is the only begotten of God. We and the angels are made. There is a difference between creature and Created.

 

To say Satan is a brother to Jesus, says that Satan is begotten not made, which means you believe Satan is God. That's what Evangelicals are hearing in that statement.

 

Obviously, LDS believe that about everyone. So, the point is moot to you.

 

It has absolutely nothing to do with guilt by association, but a fundamental and foundational difference in understanding who Jesus is.

Edited October 8, 2014 by saemo

[saemo]

The Lord, as you would agree, certainly knew what kind of "angel" that Satan would become == a completely destructive agent against His plan.  Why did He not create another Michael instead?  

 

Help me understand your logic.  Your logic seems to lead me to think God did not know the outcome of His creation, OR had no control over what He created, OR knowingly created a creature "against Himself".  At best, He was indifferent to the outcome of the creation of Satan.

 

Help me understand.  For me, your logic just doesn't work at all.

Create another Michael? What?

 

I don't know what you are asking, really, but it seems childish. Like asking, why didn't God just make me with wings so I could fly.

[cdowis]

OK, you have chosen to pretend that you don't understand the question.

 

I understand, so I won't embarrass you with any more questions.  Best of luck to you.

[saemo]

OK, you have chosen to pretend that you don't understand the question.

 

I understand, so I won't embarrass you with any more questions.  Best of luck to you.

Your questions reads to me, in the same vein as, why does a kind and loving God allow suffering.

 

He does, obviously. Why doesn't God create you not able to suffer? Why doesn't God not create you not able to sin? Why doesn't God create you with wings so you can fly?

 

God knows you are going to suffer. God know you are going to sin. God knows you don't have wings. Maybe God should have created another Michael instead of you?

 

So, really, what is the question you are asking? Why doesn't God do things the way I want them done?

 

It is a child's question, not a serious question, and a red herring, IMO. Why should I be embarrassed at your childish question? Well, I'm not.

 

But then I think, maybe I should not be so harsh in my view of your questions, and say, I don't know really know what you are you asking. Maybe your question is meant to convey something different than, a God who doesn't do what I want is illogical.

Edited October 8, 2014 by saemo

[theplains]

But we make such a good case in defense of our beliefs that they are left unsettled.

 

In my conversation with Mormons, they are quick to brush away the beliefs and teachings of

past LDS Presidents of the Church when they cannot defend, believe, or accept them. The

common response is "that is not doctrine", "that is not necessary to know for my salvation",

"it does not matter what a former prophet taught when we have a current one", etc.  Even

when it comes from books written by their own prophets and/or the Church Educational

System. The result is that the original LDS faith has split into various sects.  The largest

body of Latter-day Saints believe they are the only true church on the earth today while

the second largest denomination of Mormons views this larger group as apostate.

 

Regards,

Jim

[teddyaware]

You are begotten of your parents, not made. Jesus is the only begotten of God. We and the angels are made. There is a difference between creature and Created.

 

To say Satan is a brother to Jesus, says that Satan is begotten not made, which means you believe Satan is God. That's what Evangelicals are hearing in that statement.

 

Obviously, LDS believe that about everyone. So, the point is moot to you.

 

It has absolutely nothing to do with guilt by association, but a fundamental and foundational difference in understanding who Jesus is.

It is not only a fundamental and foundational difference of understanding in who Jesus is, It is also a fundamental and foundational difference in the understanding of who we humans are.

15 (Christ) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

The Latter-day Saints know the above words of Paul testify to the fact that Christ was the firstborn of all the spirit sons and daughters of God, and that God called upon this firstborn Son be the creator of all things in our Father's heavenly and earthly realms. (Col 1)

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, (Hebrews 2)

The Latter-day Saints know when the above testifies that both Christ (He that sanctifieth) and the human race (they who are sanctified) "are all of one," the One of whom both Christ and the whole human family are brethren and sisters is none other than God the Father Himself; and God the Father is the father of both Christ's spirit and our spirits.

It also needs to be understood (especially within the context of this discussion)  that in LDS theology Christ was always divine, even prior to His birth as the firstborn spirit child of God the Father. For in the likeness of His existence prior to His earthly birth, Christ existed and was divine even prior to His spirit birth in heaven. In Mormonism, the Spirit of Truth (Christ) always was and cannot be created or destroyed.

Intelligence, or the light of truth (Christ), was not created or made, neither indeed can be. (D&C 93:29:)

 

As a Latter-day Saint, I am unconcerned about what non-LDS Christians have to say in opposition to my beliefs. By their own happy admission these folks haven't had a prophet to guide them in the quest for truth for almost two thousand years.

32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. (1 Cor 14)

As the above testifies, only prophets are qualified to interpret what other prophets have had to say. And since the non-LDS people reject even the very idea of living prophets, how can they really be sure what the believe is true? In substitution for divine revelation, we have what amounts to a lot of strongly held and conflicting opinions.

By the way, when you aver "to say Satan is a brother to Jesus, says that Satan is begotten not made, which means you believe Satan is God," you're reasoning is severely wanting (but I think you already know that). By this strain of "logic," all the sons of God (angels) in heaven should be Satan as well. You made a big and unwarranted stretch of logic in the hope of scoring a seemingly devastating point, but in succumbing to the temptation to do so your whole argument collapses in a heap of dust. Why don't you and the Evangelicals believe all the angels are devils as well? 

Edited October 8, 2014 by teddyaware

[saemo]

It is not only a fundamental and foundational difference of understanding in who Jesus is, It is also a fundamental and foundational difference in the understanding of who we humans are.

15 (Christ) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

The Latter-day Saints know the above words of Paul testify to the fact that Christ was the firstborn of all the spirit sons and daughters of God, and that God called upon this firstborn Son be the creator of all things in our Father's heavenly and earthly realms. (Col 1)

 

The Arians first proposed the heresy you are following. The heresy was refuted, long ago, in the Apostolic teaching that Jesus' work and office was appointed before the creation of the word, and the rest of material creation is aligned on His coming. 

 

 

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, (Hebrews 2)

The Latter-day Saints know when the above testifies that both Christ (He that sanctifieth) and the human race (they who are sanctified) "are all of one," the One of whom both Christ and the whole human family are brethren and sisters is none other than God the Father Himself; and God the Father is the father of both Christ's spirit and our spirits.

 

Right, but LDS always leave out the clear teaching that we are made sons and daughters by adoption, and take literally what is not literal. We are born of the spirit in baptism, which means we are born in and through Jesus, not as begotten of God. Also, there is only one begotten of God, Jesus Christ. Only means only, so you cannot be begotten, as there is only one begotten of the Father. If you are not begotten what are you? Of course, you are made.

 

 

It also needs to be understood (especially within the context of this discussion)  that in LDS theology Christ was always divine, even prior to His birth as the firstborn spirit child of God the Father. For in the likeness of His existence prior to His earthly birth, Christ existed and was divine even prior to His spirit birth in heaven. In Mormonism, the Spirit of Truth (Christ) always was and cannot be created or destroyed.

 

Well, I have never been able to make sense of this with the teaching of Mormon progression and that Jesus had to progress so that you can be gods. So your statement here, that I've heard before, I always have a sense that you're leaving something out. Such as, Jesus was not all the way divine, and had to be born, die and rise again to be completely divine. No? A sort of, kind of, not really divine? Which, is not what mainstream Christians understand about Jesus, Who is fully divine, has always been fully divine, and will always be fully divine. 

 

 

Intelligence, or the light of truth (Christ), was not created or made, neither indeed can be. (D&C 93:29:)

 

As a Latter-day Saint, I am unconcerned about what non-LDS Christians have to say in opposition to my beliefs. By their own happy admission these folks haven't had a prophet to guide them in the quest for truth for almost two thousand years.

 

Well you are wrong there, our Prophet, High Priest and King forever, is Jesus Christ. The D&C is not a Christian scriptural source. I don't mean that as a slam. It is just a fact.

 

 

32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. (1 Cor 14)

As the above testifies, only prophets are qualified to interpret what other prophets have had to say. And since the non-LDS people reject even the very idea of living prophets, how can they really be sure what the believe is true? In substitution for divine revelation, we have what amounts to a lot of strongly held and conflicting opinions.

 

You left out verses 26-31, which put the two verses you quote in context. That of, explaining an order of things, and it is speaking of those who have the gift of prophesy, there, among the group of people. It says nothing about a church needing to be led by a human prophet. That idea is in complete opposition to Hebrews 1:1-2. God speaks to us through His Son, who is God's word, perfectly revealed. What do you think God left out in revelation of His Son, Jesus Christ?

But, those two verses condemn the Mormon idea of a current prophet overrides previous prophets.

 

By the way, when you aver "to say Satan is a brother to Jesus, says that Satan is begotten not made, which means you believe Satan is God," you're reasoning is severely wanting (but I think you already know that). By this strain of "logic," all the sons of God (angels) in heaven should be Satan as well. You made a big and unwarranted stretch of logic in the hope of scoring a seemingly devastating point, but in succumbing to the temptation to do so your whole argument collapses in a heap of dust. Why don't you and the Evangelicals believe all the angels are devils as well?

I was trying to convey to you, that Mormon teaching put into the context of Trinitarian doctrine, makes it appear that you are in fact saying Satan is God. Your response here does not address that miscommunication, you only further it. Also, using a logical fallacy, all doctors are humans but not all humans are doctors? That is not what I was saying. But oh well. Edited October 8, 2014 by saemo

[carbon dioxide]

I mean I get it... Mormons are peculiar.  We believe that Jesus appeared to a 14 y.o. boy in New York.  We believe in modern revelation and scripture.  We believe we have a living, actual prophet today.  We believe in modern day miracles and visions and the restoration of the ancient church.  Why then do so many of my evangelical friends need to make stuff up?  Isn't the truth enough to highlight our differences?  But the whole, "I know your beliefs better than you" and "did you know that Brigham Young once said 160 years ago that..."  I don't know I mean if you are truly representing Christ, shouldn't there be a little honesty to go along with it.

 

I'm sorry to vent.  I'm just getting Facebook messages from some friends, and it seems so unchristian to hear some of the bunk they've been fed by their pastors and at their anti-mormon seminars.  The true differences are stark enough.  You don't have to bear false witness to show that there are fundamental differences.  Just sayin'

My advice is to avoid using Facebook.  In addition of not getting stressed out, you don't sell your life out to Mark Zuckerberg. 

[teddyaware]

The Arians first proposed the heresy you are following. The heresy was refuted, long ago, in the Apostolic teaching that Jesus' work and office was appointed before the creation of the word, and the rest of material creation is aligned on His coming.

 

Where in the world do the Latter-day Saints vary from this? There are many revelations in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants that say the same thing.

Right, but LDS always leave out the clear teaching that we are made sons and daughters by adoption, and take literally what is not literal. We are born of the spirit in baptism, which means we are born in and through Jesus, not as begotten of God. Also, there is only one begotten of God, Jesus Christ. Only means only, so you cannot be begotten, as there is only one begotten of the Father. If you are not begotten what are you? Of course, you are made.

 

Incorrect. In the verses quoted from Hebrews 2, we are told both Christ and His earthly brethren are all of one, that "one" being the Father. If these verses were speaking of the spiritual aoption through Christ, Christ would have been left out of the group.

 

Well, I have never been able to make sense of this with the teaching of Mormon progression and that Jesus had to progress so that you can be gods. So your statement here, that I've heard before, I always have a sense that you're leaving something out. Such as, Jesus was not all the way divine, and had to be born, die and rise again to be completely divine. No? A sort of, kind of, not really divine? Which, is not what mainstream Christians understand about Jesus, Who is fully divine, has always been fully divine, and will always be fully divine. 

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Hebrews 5)

How does a perfect being learn anything, especially obedience? And how does a perfect being become anything, if He already is what we are told He latter became? And how is a perfect being made perfect if He already is perfect. This is how:

13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me. (Alma 7)

and,

5 And thus the flesh (of the Son) becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

6 And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.

7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.

Well you are wrong there, our Prophet, High Priest and King forever, is Jesus Christ. The D&C is not a Christian scriptural source. I don't mean that as a slam. It is just a fact.

 

When did I ever say anything different???

 

You left out verses 26-31, which put the two verses you quote in context. That of, explaining an order of things, and it is speaking of those who have the gift of prophesy, there, among the group of people. It says nothing about a church needing to be led by a human prophet. That idea is in complete opposition to Hebrews 1:1-2. God speaks to us through His Son, who is God's word, perfectly revealed. What do you think God left out in revelation of His Son, Jesus Christ?

But, those two verses condemn the Mormon idea of a current prophet overrides previous prophets.

 

The Apostolic Church of Christ belies your facile explanation. You ignore the entire New Testament Church, as consistently and amply described in the New Testament. You react as if those verses were written at a time when Prophets were no longer on the earth, rather than at that very real time when Apostles and Prophets were leading and guiding the Church -- a classic case of out of context exegesis. Any member of the New Testament era Church would surely think you were speaking heresy, as the Church you describe looks nothing like the Church of their own experience:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

 

There are so many more... So the Apostles and Prophets were, by God's own decree, supposed to remain in the Church till every member of the Church became perfect, "unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." If it weren't for the great apostasy, the Apostles and Prophets would have remained. I find the fact that the New Testament era Church of Christ had living prophets to lead and guide it an especially weak link of argument for the non-LDS Christians, as the Bible is very clear on this point.

I was trying to convey to you, that Mormon teaching put into the context of Trinitarian doctrine, makes it appear that you are in fact saying Satan is God. Your response here does not address that miscommunication, you only further it. Also, using a logical fallacy, all doctors are humans but not all humans are doctors? That is not what I was saying. But oh well.

 

 The LDS appear to say that Satan is God? What??? And so you continue with this unkind nonsense. By this blatant disrespect I discern you enjoy goading. For the sake of those around you, I hope you leave that unpleasent trait on this board. As for the mystery of the Trinity: for your side it is by very definition an incomprehensible mystery. So until you figure out what the mystery of it all is, there's no sense in getting involved in a debate where only one side has defined its terms

Because of my "limited" status, I have no more posts left to post for a while, so I'll be out of 'action' for a few hours.

Edited October 9, 2014 by teddyaware

[saemo]

Because of my "limited" status, I have no more posts left to post for a while, so I'll be out of 'action' for a few hours.

ha, I just gave you a rep. No way to unrep. lol.

 

You only prove my point, which is, LDS have a view so different from mainstream Christianity that you can't even comprehend why we see what we see, and chalk it up to picking on you.

 

As I said, I was trying to help you see how we see what you teach, and I said, it is a miscommunication. So why go for personal attack? Why be such an insulting jerk? With that, this will be my final post to you. I think it is best, for both of us.

 

The letter to the Hebrews is just that, a letter to Jews, who are under the Abrahamic covenant and therefore already the People of God, ie, God's children. The letter teaches their position now in the New Covenant, how Jesus fulfills the temple sacrifice and the Mosaic law, and explains Salvation in context of being a Jew.

 

I assumed that you are not Jewish, as most Christians are not Jewish. We are gentiles, and so please, look at Paul teaching to gentile converts, where he specifically states numerous times that we are adopted children of the Father. We are not under the Abrahamic covenant. We are not begotten of the Father. THERE IS ONE ONLY BEGOTTEN. I really don't know what is so hard to understand about that.

 

God made Adam and Eve as sons and daughters. The fall made all of humanity separated from God. A "no people". Salvation History, that we see in the OT, is God bringing us back as His. First, with a family, through Noah, then a tribe, through Abraham, then a city, through David, and finally fulfilled completely for all of humanity, in Jesus Christ, who makes it possible for all of us to be made sons and daughters as was meant in the beginning. Our restoration as sons and daughters is because of Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, and no other could make this reconciliation as it is GOD HIMSELF who has reconciled us. Christ has restored all things. Without this understanding, I don't know that it would be possible to understand the OT at all, let alone Christianity.

 

Peter was not a prophet, yet, he led the Church. Prophecy is a gift of the Holy Spirit, which can be given to anyone as God chooses. Prophets exist still, and have always, but the gift of prophecy has never been a requirement for a person to shepherd Christ's Church. Peter followed our Prophet, Jesus Christ, and Christ is who we follow today.

 

The rest of your post is rooted in Mormon ideas, which arose in the early 19th century and really have nothing to do with understanding Christianity or Christ. I assumed the OP started the thread to understand why non-Mormons would take the view they do, but I can see I was naive, and it was started to bash other points of view.

 

May the peace of Christ be with you.

Edited October 10, 2014 by saemo

[teddyaware]

ha, I just gave you a rep. No way to unrep. lol.

 

You only prove my point, which is, LDS have a view so different from mainstream Christianity that you can't even comprehend why we see what we see, and chalk it up to picking on you.

 

As I said, I was trying to help you see how we see what you teach, and I said, it is a miscommunication. So why go for personal attack? Why be such an insulting jerk? With that, this will be my final post to you. I think it is best, for both of us.

 

The letter to the Hebrews is just that, a letter to Jews, who are under the Abrahamic covenant and therefore already the People of God, ie, God's children. The letter teaches their position now in the New Covenant, how Jesus fulfills the temple sacrifice and the mosaic law, and explains Salvation in context of being a Jew.

 

I assumed that you are not Jewish, as most Christians are not Jewish. We are gentiles, and so please, look at Paul teaching to gentile converts, where he specifically states numerous times that we are adopted children of the Father. We are not under the Abrahamic covenant. We are not begotten of the Father. THERE IS ONE ONLY BEGOTTEN. I really don't know what is so hard to understand about that.

 

The rest of your post is rooted in Mormon ideas, which arose in the early 19th century and really have nothing to do with understanding Christianity or Christ. I assumed the OP started the thread to understand why non-Mormons would take the view they do, but I can see I was naive, and it was started to bash other points of view.

 

May the peace of Christ be with you.

I suppose this is precisely the same kind of approach the Jews of the apostolic era took when the Christians presented them with fuller and more completely fleshed-out version of their own religion... "How silly you Christians are. Don't you know mainstream Judaism thinks your so-called "new scriptures" and bizarre doctrinal innovations are non-biblical, and just plain silly. When are you going to realize it's only the majority opinion that has any validity. And the majority opinion, whether you like it or not, is that your carpenter from backwater Nazareth is not the messiah."

The rep point was a Freudian slip.

Edited October 10, 2014 by teddyaware

[Calm]

You only prove my point, which is, LDS have a view so different from mainstream Christianity that you can't even comprehend why we see what we see...

 

If your reasoning is that all things uncreated are God thus if Satan is begotten instead of created than he is God just as Christ begotten, not created is God, then there are some LDS that can see this quite clearly and have for quite sometime.

Edited October 10, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

 I assumed the OP started the thread to understand why non-Mormons would take the view they do, but I can see I was naive, and it was started to bash other points of view.

 

Threads are not usually started as a group effort, you need to just bloat's post to see why he started the thread, not someone else he has no control over.

[saemo]

If your reasoning is that all things uncreated are God thus if Satan is begotten instead of created than he is God just as Christ begotten, not created is God, then there are some LDS that can see this quite clearly.

What?

 

Stepping through it:

 

Trinitarian doctrine:

 

- Jesus is God, not a God, but the God, and has always been God.

- Satan and all angels are created, not a god, or God.

- Humans are created, not gods or God.

 

When LDS say, Jesus is the brother of the Satan, what a Trinitarian hears is that Jesus has a brother, another begotten of the Father, and therefore, Satan too would be God. THis is not what any Christian believes, but is what Mormon teaching looks like to a Trinitarian view.

 

Which, is, as I said, a miscommunication.

Edited October 10, 2014 by saemo

[thesometimesaint]

What?

 

Stepping through it:

 

Trinitarian doctrine:

 

- Jesus is God, not a God, but the God, and has always been God.

- Satan and all angels are created, not a god, or God.

- Humans are created, not gods or God.

 

When LDS say, Jesus is the brother of the Satan, what a Trinitarian hears is that Jesus has a brother, another begotten of the Father, and therefore, Satan too would be God. THis is not what any Christian believes, but is what Mormon teaching looks like to a Trinitarian view.

 

Which, is, as I said, a miscommunication.

 

So God created Satan to fight against him?

[Tacenda]

So God created Satan to fight against him?

How do you get that?

[thesometimesaint]

How do you get that?

 

Pretty easy. Satan isn't God or Jesus. So he was created. So God created Satan to fight against God.

[WysteriaBlue]

no offense intended, but I have to think that is a bit too simplistic.

Yes God created all and everything.

In his infinite wisdom, through justice, truth and goodness he also gave us all free agency.

That Satan CHOSE to go against God does not necessarily imply that God created Satan to fight him...

I think he was very disappointed in the choice the devil and his followers made/make.

He also sent us the plan of salvation to give us hope and the chance of redemption..

 

That is just the way I understand it....but yes, in the end, God did create everything.

[wenglund]

It is my LDS understanding that there are at least 5 points of creation or birth: 1) spirit creation/birth (premortal existence); 2) spiritual creation/birth (pre-fall); 3) Mortal creation/birth in the flesh (post fall physical birth); 4 spiritual creation/birth (post fall, as represented by baptism--i.e. born again); and 5) glorified and eternal creation/birth (resurrection). 

 

While most Christian religions may not ascribe to the spirit creation, at least not precisely in the way LDS do (they may ascribe to Christ begotten as a spirit, as well as the creation of spirits, though not as LDS with their belief in the begetting/creation of the spirits of men), they do ascribe to the other creations/births. 

 

As such, and since certain biblical passages aren't always clear, It is easy to confuse references to one of these creations/births for another of these creations/births. For example, references to Christ being the "only begotten" may refer to his birth in the flesh (#3), but be confused with birth as a spirit (#1). Also, biblical passages regarding birth by adoption may rightly be in reference to spiritual birth through baptism (#4), but be confused with spirit birth during the pre-existence (#1).

 

Furthermore,  there are different "fathers" for the different creations/births. 1) God the Father is the father of spirit creations/birth (#1), 2) Christ is the father of the spiritual creation/birth (#2), and he along with Adam and Eve and their posterity are the fathers and creator/pro-creators of mans mortal creation/birth (#3), and he along with his bride, the Church, are the father and creator of spiritual birth by way of baptism (# 4), and he is the father of the resurrected (#5).

 

Understand who the different fathers are for each of the creations/birth, may provide contextual help avoiding confusing the various creations/birth.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited October 14, 2014 by wenglund

[Parsec]

Mormons don't always make it easy for non-Mormons. Mormons aren't in agreement about what it is they believe, so a non-Mormon will hear one thing from one Mormon only to be told by another Mormon that Mormons don't believe what the first Mormon said Mormons believe.

 

Was Elohim possibly a sinner in a past life? (Did Elohim even have a past life?) Depends on which Mormon you put the question to.

 

Mormons could clear up some of the confusion by acknowledging that some of the "made up" stuff is actually of Mormon origin. Sure, there are other things, like the "temple orgies," that aren't from Mormons at all. But too often Mormons dismiss a belief attributed to Mormonism as a "misconception" when it's really closer to a "minority view that was formerly a majority view."

[teddyaware]

Mormons don't always make it easy for non-Mormons. Mormons aren't in agreement about what it is they believe, so a non-Mormon will hear one thing from one Mormon only to be told by another Mormon that Mormons don't believe what the first Mormon said Mormons believe.

 

Was Elohim possibly a sinner in a past life? (Did Elohim even have a past life?) Depends on which Mormon you put the question to.

 

Mormons could clear up some of the confusion by acknowledging that some of the "made up" stuff is actually of Mormon origin. Sure, there are other things, like the "temple orgies," that aren't from Mormons at all. But too often Mormons dismiss a belief attributed to Mormonism as a "misconception" when it's really closer to a "minority view that was formerly a majority view."

The Bible clearly teaches us that those who follow Christ in living faith are forgiven and sanctified to the point that, as far as the law of God is concerned, it's as if they never sinned in the first. Do you think that in heaven God will constantly berate the saved with the fact that they were once sinful and unclean? Or will He do as He has promised, that is remember the sin no more.

For those spoken of in Revelation 3 -- who overcome and are granted the right to sit in the throne of Christ's eternal power -- will He sit on a throne next to them and ceaselessly hound them for their previous state of uncleanness?

Those who are made clean by the redeeming power of God are new creatures, old things are passed away (die) and everything becomes totally new. So if Heavenly Father was once a mortal man, He is a new and perfectly holy creature now and old things are remembered no more. Or do you believe the redeeming power of God is incapable of making a former sinner perfectly clean and holy? Well from the Latter-day Saint perspective, we believe former sinners do in fact become so holy that God gives them the right to sit on His throne to judge the nations and rule and reign over them with rods of iron (See Revelation chapters 2 & 3).

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (Revelation 21)

 

Because we Latter-day Saints believe the power of God is infinite and eternal, we assert that it has the capacity to take that which was formerly unclean and transform it into something that is infinitely and eternally pure and holy. Indeed, the former things pass away and are completely transformed into something totally and utterly new.

Edited October 16, 2014 by teddyaware